<p>From personal experience, I have given the "golden rule" to several students I have admonished on their way out of high school</p>
<p>"Go to class, go to class, go to class". </p>
<p>The absolutely pure common thread in flame-outs is the lack of attendance. It may happen because of any number of reasons.....drinking, inability to retire on time and therefore to arise on time, preoccupations with athletics or extracurriculars, just preferring to go uptown for a pizza, coke or whatever. </p>
<p>What I have observed is that those who attend class regularly are buoyed by that ever-present neurosis about how much there is to learn, or how complicated it is. They have a sense of always being a step behind.</p>
<p>By contrast, those who miss class regularly are literally ignorant of how far behind they are falling, and are happily deluded with the idea that they'll pick up the pace in the days before midterms or finals and pull the rabbit out of the hat. </p>
<p>Leaving home where life is governed by the rythyms of day-to-day income necessity and parental oversight is indeed a journey into an abyss for some. </p>
<p>BTW, if you look at more normal universities, the number of students who do not graduate is absolutely stunning. This fact is often brought up by the athletic department when their poor graduation rates are cited, but it is also a sad truth.</p>
<p>Amen. At the risk of over-generalizing, it is my belief that any student who goes to every class, makes an effort to keep up with the assignments, and turns in the papers on time (give or take a week) is not only going to pass that class, but probably get a gentleman's B-something.</p>
<p>The exception may be the science and math courses graded to a curve. But, even there, the effort will be noted and measures taken to prop the kid up with study groups, tutoring, etc.</p>
<p>Swarthmore professor Tim Burke blogged about this a few years back. He said that he was more inclined to give a "B" for an uninspired pedestrian paper from a diligent student doing the best he or she could and more inclined to give a lower grade to a student capable of more who had simply mailed it in as far as effort.</p>
<p>"And Cornell has a pretty tough rep as the hardest ivy to graduate from."</p>
<p>They have the highest rate of grade inflation over the past 10 years of any of the Ivies. The rep is undeserved, except for the fact that, in the publicly funded portions of Cornell, the average income of student families is lower, hence a lower graduation rate.</p>
<p>Having gone to Harvard and taught at second and third tier colleges, my experience has been that a paper or exam that would get a B- or C+ at Harvard would get an A+ at many (definitely not all!) 2nd and third tier colleges.</p>
<p>When I went to Harvard, my idea of an easy course was one that required "just" a 20 page research paper and a midterm (all essays) or final (all essays). When I met a student at a third tier who was complaining about "difficult" multiple choice tests, I realized that what was considered an easy course at Harvard would have been darned near impossibly hard at many other colleges.</p>
<p>When I taught a graduate level education course at a 2nd/3rd tier, I gave what I thought was easy assignments for the semester: 1 10 page term paper and one presentation based on the paper, no final or midterm. To my surprise, most of the students had never before been expected to write a paper as long as 10 pages. My students were school teachers, most of whom were older than me (I was then in my mid 30s).</p>
<p>Since we are just looking at graduation rates, if Cornell has the lowest graduation rate of the ivies, the rep is very much deserved. I don't know the exact #s, mini, just repeating hearsay. But I would guess the engineering school figures are not way up there either along with the state supported parts of Cornell.</p>
<p>are there any stats of the amount of (binge) drinking by college?</p>
<p>I believe I saw a Harvard study - probably referenced in CC - on college binge drinking. I am pretty sure I recall that the study recognized it as a 'real' problem vs a perception.</p>
<p>But I am sure that there are more varied reasons for drop outs than drinking - all the factors stated above, and probably more.</p>
<p>Beyond the unexpected bad performance at top schools that the OP mentions, the overall nat'l 4 yr grad rate is (well) below 50 pct. Anecdotally, I know about three people who dropped out / transferred due to not being able to handle the costs, so that is another factor.</p>
<p>Is there a 'why do kids drop out?' or 'why is the 4 yr grad rate so low?' thread ? (not just in the universe of top kids at top schools).</p>
<p>EDIT--
I saw post #20 (I did not read the whole thread), and saw that harvard study I referenced above.</p>
<p>"Since we are just looking at graduation rates, if Cornell has the lowest graduation rate of the ivies, the rep is very much deserved. I don't know the exact #s, mini, just repeating hearsay. But I would guess the engineering school figures are not way up there either along with the state supported parts of Cornell."</p>
<p>Well, it isn't because of the lack of grade inflation. I have linked those articles repeatedly showing Cornell's largest increase in rate of grade inflation over the decade. So IF graduation rates are lower (unproven), there have to be other explanations. The simplest one, and the one that matches up quite clearly with all national data, is financially poorer students.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I'm glad you posted about your actual experience in different settings, although I don't expect many to believe you. People continue to insist that the education is the same regardless of where you go and Ivies are simply an athletic league, when in reality there's a world of difference in what is taught, what is expected of students and what the students bring to the classroom. I imagine your experience at Harvard would be the same at any of the top schools (not just Ivies). I remember back in my day being surprised at how many of my classmates at U Delaware didn't know how to write a term paper (a requirement of freshman English). We couldn't graduate HS without writing a solid paper - and that was in a public HS.</p>
<p>I remember a friend warning my daughter about Swarthmore, where he went. He worked/studied 6 days a week and often received Cs as did his classmates. My d wouldn't have enjoyed that type of environment. Not that she likes it easy, but she prefers other types of challenges.</p>
<p>I was under the impression that it is very hard to actually fail a course at top colleges and universities if a student really tried because there are support systems in place (professors who hold open office hours, tutors offered by the school, intelligent peers for study-groups, advisers to say... look, your midterm grade isn't so hot). But now I realize that in the large courses, unless a student takes the initiative in seeking out help, it is very possible to end up with an F on his or her transcript. Furthermore, some students just weren't prepared by their high schools to take the work load. They had neither the skills nor the study habits to really research, write, and learn effectively. My hope, of course, is that being at a top college helps them develop these skills, painful as it may be, and that they'll truly enjoy the process of learning. It must be tough, though.</p>
<p>I was in a chess club that had 2 professors from various colleges. They would joke about sending out the grades and then turning off the computer/phones for a while before the deluge of students started wanting to discuss a grade and have it changed. Many didn't do the work and it was hard to have sympathy but the professors are under some pressure to change grades at times.
This happens at high school level also. One school in CT was in the news for changing grades and their "false" great graduation rate was skewed. When talking to an old History teacher of mine, he said back in the 70's when he started, inflated grades were mainly for athletes so they could still play, now it's from parents and administrators to make their school look like it is better than the product they are putting out.</p>
<p>Mini, I think size of the school is also an issue. Cornell and Pa are the largest ivies and with the lowest grad rates. Also the highest admit rates among the ivies. I don't know if the grad rates have gone up or done significantly in the last 5 years.</p>
<p>An interesting take on this issue from my sister-in-law, a professor at the University of Toronto (essentially equivalent to a good U.S. public flagship), who just finished a semester as a visiting professor at Swarthmore. What she said: </p>
<p>"I didn't see any difference in intellectual capacity or work product quality between my undergraduate students at Toronto and the students at Swarthmore. The big difference is that almost all of the students at Toronto have jobs and spend a lot of time figuring out how to support themselves while they are in college. They have to make their education fit in between their job duties. The students at Swarthmore just don't seem to have those issues."</p>
<p>Note that her field is fairly esoteric, and she doesn't teach large introductory survey courses. The undergraduates she met at both schools would tend to be upperclass students who were in a position to take at least an intermediate linguistics course. So not necessarily a typical cross-section of the student body either place.</p>
<p>In other words, the students at Swarthmore are wealthier, accounting for virtually all of the difference in graduation rates. </p>
<p>"I think size of the school is also an issue. Cornell and Pa are the largest ivies and with the lowest grad rates. Also the highest admit rates among the ivies. I don't know if the grad rates have gone up or done significantly in the last 5 years."</p>
<p>I've seen no evidence nationally that size of school is related to grad rates whatsoever. And do you seriously want to argue that at schools with a 16% or so (or less) admit rate, admitted students have more difficulty doing the work? (If that were the case, I'd fire the entire admissions office, from director to bottlewasher.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I remember a friend warning my daughter about Swarthmore, where he went. He worked/studied 6 days a week and often received Cs as did his classmates.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You can't trust the memory of us old fuddy duddies. We all walked five miles to school in snow -- uphill both way -- everyday, too!</p>
<p>The studying six days a week part is accurate (sometimes). More like Sunday thru Thursday, plus catch a little reading on Friday or Saturday afternoon before dinner if nothing else is going on. Absolutely, though: academics are major part of the daily routine at Swarthmore College. The result of that, however, is not a lot of C's. The last estimate I saw of the median GPA was right at a B+.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In other words, the students at Swarthmore are wealthier, accounting for virtually all of the difference in graduation rates.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that is about half right. The other half is that the College meets 100% of demonstrated need for every student, every year. That goes a long way towards bumping up the grad rates, too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"The big difference is that almost all of the students at Toronto have jobs and spend a lot of time figuring out how to support themselves while they are in college. They have to make their education fit in between their job duties. The students at Swarthmore just don't seem to have those issues."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes. That's what makes a residential college meeting 100% financial need unique. Here, on CC, we focus so much on only those relative handfuls of colleges and universities that it is easy to lose sight of the real world of higher education where students don't live on campus and are often much older than the 18 to 21 year olds we talk about here.</p>
<p>On the flip side, your sis-in-law may not have been aware that 1100 of Swarthmore's 1400 students last year worked part-time jobs on campus. My sense is that that campus culture just "expects" students to have a campus job of some sort.</p>
<p>"Yes. That's what makes a residential college meeting 100% financial need unique. Here, on CC, we focus so much on only those relative handfuls of colleges and universities that it is easy to lose sight of the real world of higher education where students don't live on campus and are often much older than the 18 to 21 year olds we talk about here."</p>
<p>Even just using those receiving need-based aid at Swarthmore (and most of these schools), median family income is well above the national average. Very, very atypical. (Which I think is just fine, provided we understand why dropout rates at these schools are so low.)</p>
<p>Right. Low dropout rates correlate with available cash money. No question about that.</p>
<p>That's why I question your statement that there is no correlation between binge drinking and drop out rates. This is most certainly true on a global basis because the schools with the wealthiest students have the lowest drop out rates and the highest binge drinking rates.</p>
<p>However, I'm not sure the conclusion applies to a given "top school" that already has miniscule dropout rates due to socio-economic factors, i.e. schools where money is not the issue. I would be hesitant to conclude that, within the student body at a Williams or Swarthmore or Dartmouth or Princeton, the bomb out rates don't correlate with heavy binge drinking. At least as far as the visible disciplinary tickets homes, virtually all are associated with drunk behaviors: fights, throwing tables over balconies, and so forth. Certainly some academic problems are worsened, if not outright caused, by drinking -- for example, the observable decline in class attendance and grades during fraternity pledge semesters at big greek schools.</p>
<p>If you take the top 5% of every class and put them together, some of those people are going to be in the bottom 5%. The HS senior might have had a few classmates at his/her level last year but now has thousands, culled from the best in the world. </p>
<p>Dropout rates at Williams, Swarthmore, Dartmouth, and Princeton are so, so low (and about the same for the school listed here with low binge drinking rates as for the three that are well above the national average - though I have only seen data on 2 out of 3), that it would be much easier to conclude that - among this class of schools - high binge drinking and low dropout rates go together. Money is STILL the number one issue at these schools - there may be enough money to attend, but there may not be enough money to maintain the family (or help a family through a health crisis, etc.) back home. And binge drinking rates among low-income students generally (I can't say for these particular schools) are substantially lower than for higher income ones.</p>
<p>Mini, I am talking about among the ivies, when I say that Cornell and UPenn have the lowest grad rates. And, yes, I think the size of a school does have some bearing on the grad rate. Not the whole story, but does bear some of the load.</p>