How do Midwest LACs compare to Northeast LACs?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Having worked around the country, I find that a great many of the Midwesterners or Southerners who talk about the Northeast being unfriendly have not spent much time in the Northeast. I think generalizations about Northeastern colleges being unfriendly has as much value as referring to narrowminded Midwesterners, bigoted Southerners or beansprout-eating Californians would–none. </p>

<p>Even if people have toured 25+ schools in both regions (which I doubt), anyone who opines with confidence about whether a school has a “cooperative” atmosphere on the basis of a tour is likely wrong. Even people in the regions who know many students from such often compared schools as Haverford/Swarthmore; Williams/Wesleyan; Oberlin/Kenyon; Bates/Bowdoin or Carleton/Macalester often disagree on aspects of those schools.</p>

<p>I suspect you will find excellent fits in both regions–as well as other regions. From California, you might find it helpful if the college is not far from a major airport or if the college is located near places your son would like to explore during his college years, whether it is Chicago or the Boston/Washington corridor. Best of luck with your search.</p>

22

<p>TK, your weather data is interesting, but contradicts your conclusion that “Schools in Massachusetts, Vermont and New York get less sunshine than schools in Iowa, Colorado and Minnesota, and tend to get just about as cold.” Your data has MA, NY and MN all at 58% sunshine, with IA at 59%. Colorado is not even in the Midwestern timezone and is further west than, for example, Texas. It would be far more accurate to include Ohio, which, at 49%, would be below NY and MA and equal to VT.</p>

<p>For cold, you skip the MA schools in Boston (22 degrees) to go with Worcester (which you refer to as both 11 and 9), so that the difference with IA at 9 and MN at 4 is smaller. NY is hardly balmy at 13, but not “just about as cold” as MN at 4.</p>

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<p>Having lived in the both the NE and the Upper Midwest, I think it’s really six of one, half a dozen of the other. At one point, it’s cold enough that you’re not spending much time outside anyway, so whether it’s 10 degrees or -10 degrees seems beside the point. I think the “fear” of midwestern weathers is much ado about nothing compared to New England winters.</p>

24

<p>Having fueled some of this notion a while back, let me revisit the topic. And let me quickly add, there is, imo, no matter what the silly lists and books proclaim, no comprehensive way to assess and respond. Much of this is indivudual “stuff”, emotions and feelings trumping thinking, and mostly managing egoes. And often parental egoes as much as students’ …those of Mr. and Mrs. Microwave from Darien,Connecticut but whose folks, the Kettles, once farmed wheat in Nebraska, but that was too tough and too unpredictably so off we went to NE to get enlightened and modestly wealthy in terms of money with no time for the kids. </p>

<p>And ironically, the NE “enlightened” kids are often the most closed-minded. As one prep school counselor in VT once told us, “our kids all wear the same clothes and as far as colleges go, they think the world ends at the Hudson River.” An interesting observation that informs such a discussion as this.</p>

<p>The Grinnell story is so reoccurring and validating among those who’ve somehow equipped themselves and their students to consider that life in Iowa or Colorado or Ohio might be very different than in Middlebury VT …and very worthy of consideration. </p>

<p>Basically, because of this geographical phenomenon and consequent perception of a huge proportion of college-bound students hide-bound to the Coasts or climes sunnier than Northfield Minnesota or Gambier Ohio or Danville KY or … my thesis is that Midwest schools in these seemingly most un-sexy of locales must do exceptional work to attract and retain top students from all over the planet. And they do. In other words, my speculation is that they have greater capacity for delivering on what they promise. They ain’t perfect. None are. But they can be spectacular places to live and learn, and often do so at a lesser net cost to Mr. and Mrs. M. </p>

<p>And if they’re really lucky??? They just might get “adopted” by Ma & Pa Kettle some Sunday, and invited out to the farm for a real meal and a mind-broadening experience. And besides, is there anything really wrong with having a little more assurance that your dearest daughter isn’t at risk being raped each night as she walks alone to the dining hall? Or having most of the passers-bye on the little town sidewalk, say “HI” and really mean it?</p>

<p>And in the end, coeds in Ugg boots and cute little wool scarves and matching mittens has a certain charm to it …Remember, Love Story had a whole bunch of heart-throbbing scenes in the snow, sipping hot chocolate and hot toddies at the local pub.</p>

<p>So …I believe Granville Ohio is one of the most lovely NE style towns on the planet with a superb LAC I “university” up on the hill, with a lovely chapel, looking exactly the way it’s supposed to be. And that college has a huge endowment, much of which it devotes to attracting top-shelf students, some but not most of whom might have a shot at Penn or Princeton but are none the less outstanding and from all 50 states and about the same # of foreign countries. Yep, not perfect, but pretty darn good. And you can fill in your own Granville. We saw a whole bunch of them where that Kettle conservativism was a very nice balance to the absurdities of Coastal liberalism. Balance, I call it.</p>

<p>btw, ours got into a number of the “big name” places and we live in the NE.</p>

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<p>These are reasons as to why we looked turned to the midwest. Granville is also certainly not as isolated as locations of some schools in the Northeast either (Columbus is a short distance away).
Some of these midwestern schools will still appear on the NACAC list in May. I just don’t get it.</p>

26

<p>yabeyabe, my main point about climate comparisons was that people should not write off the Midwest as having uniformly colder, more miserable weather than the NE. Both regions get cold winters, but some Midwestern colleges are in slightly warmer locations (and have more sunny days) than some Northeastern schools. All climate is local. Of course, you’re right to scrutinize the data and my conclusions. Specifically:

“Sunshine” is a little tricky to measure. My list above is sorted according to the number of days of sunshine (column 2, under “Days”), which is a different metric from “percentage of sunshine”. The conclusion you cite rests on days of sunshine, too. But I also included some “percentage of sunshine” figures; you are right, that complicates the picture.

Eastern Colorado, up to the front range of the Rockies, is the western limit of “midwest” in my view. Colorado College is a member of the Associated Colleges of the Midwest. True, there seem to be more LACs in Ohio than there are in Colorado. However, my table focuses only on the USNWR top 25 LACs; there is one of those in Ohio, and one in Colorado.

I did get a little sloppy and lazy in pulling together data from several sources. I started out drawing temperature data from a list that had Worcester as the closest town I could find to the USNWR top-25 LACs in Western MA. Then I wound up consulting a more detailed source for January lows in Amherst and Williamstown. I’ll try to rebuild a better list focusing only on January temperatures by zip or some such.</p>

27

<p>Here’s a re-do of January low temperature data for New England and Midwestern LACs in the USNWR top 25. Yes, I’ve shamelessly excluded the Philadelphia schools (which would bring up the Northeastern averages). </p>

<p>My source for this temperature data is MesissaDATA
([Climate</a> Averages LookupClimate Averages by ZIP Code](<a href=“http://addressverify.com/lookups/ZipWeather.asp]Climate”>http://addressverify.com/lookups/ZipWeather.asp))
You can search it to get other climate data besides January lows (complete monthly averages for example). </p>

<p>



School  Zipcode January_Low
Amherst 01002   11.2
Bates   04240   11.5
Bowdoin 04011   10.1
Colby   04901   5.2
Colgate 13346   8.8
Hamilton 13323  13.5
MHC 01075   11.2
Middlebury 05753 8.8
Smith   01063   11.2
USMA    10996   18.9
Vassar  12604   14.7
Wellesley 02481 16.2
Wesleyan 06459  20.3
Willams 01267   12.7<br>
Average (New England Top 25)        12.45 degrees</p>

<p>School  Zipcode January_Low
Carleton 55057  1.3
Colorado College 80903  14.5
Grinnell 50112  7.9
Oberlin 44074   15.6
Average (Midwestern Top 25)     9.825 degrees

</p>

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<p>Screw the data :slight_smile: I’ve lived in both, and really, it’s just not as big of a difference as people from the East Coast think that it is. It’s just part of that midwestern stereotype that they love to indulge in. Funny, no one seems to worry about the cold winters in Harvard Yard or Hanover, New Hampshire.</p>

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<p>I’ve lived in both. Typical Northeast and Collegeconfidential view of Midwest college students: Bib overalls, bare feet when weather is nice. Carry books to class in burlap bags. Type papers on Smith Caronas by candlelight. Aerobic workout is slopping hogs and tossing bales of hay. Squirrel stew for Sunday dinner.</p>

<p>Actually, weather is comparable, with some extremes (Maine and Minnesota colder, Southern Indiana and Connecticut warmer).</p>

<p>Check out where the students come from. Some Northeast colleges dominated by NYC/NJ folks, some Midwest colleges have lots of Chicago people, giving them more a different feel than ones that have a smaller proportion of big-city students.</p>

<p>Probably more smiles on Midwest campuses, for what that’s worth. Was recently on Williams College’s campus and saw zero smiles and joviality. During class-change times, lots of people walking on campus, but it was absolutely silent.</p>

30

<p>Well,</p>

<p>My D visited either with me or without me a lot of schools out east, in the midwest, and the west.
West-Oxy, CMC, Scripps- applied/accepted to all, lots of merit at Oxy</p>

<p>Midwest- Carleton (2x), Macalester, St. Olaf (3x), Denison, Colorado College (2x), Grinnell,
applied/accepted to Carleton, St. Olaf, Denison, the latter 2 with huge merit, Carleton with the best FA of any school that didn’t offer merit.</p>

<p>East- Haverford, Wellesley, Lafayette, Swarthmore applied/accepted to the first 2</p>

<p>Wound up a Trinity in San Antonio. In the end it gave her everything she decided in the end she needed/wanted–beautiful campus, challenging classes, diverse student body (Texas is very diverse), awesome Study Abroad opportunities, and two things she really didn’t realize until the very end, no real winter, and lots of sunshine. She also felt that she should be able to practice her main EC outdoors all year round, the way it was meant to be.
Until that realization hit, St. Olaf and Carleton were still in the running.</p>

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<p>If you counted the percentage of expensive Italian leather shoes on female students’ feet, I’d guess the number would be in the high single or low double digits at some NESCAC (New England) and Mid-Atlantic schools, while approaching zero at virtually all the ACM (Midwestern) schools. Not that sweats and sneakers aren’t closer to the style norm at all these colleges.</p>

<p>Uh, I’m just reaching for something … measurable … here (w/apologies to Pizzagirl.) </p>

<p>Of course, we do have academic outcomes measurements (often discussed on CC) such as PhD productivity or law/med/business school “feeder” rates.
[REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)
[The</a> Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition](<a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights)
If these data are to be trusted, it appears the Midwestern LACs do better at turning out future Ph.D.s, while the Eastern LACs do better at top professional school placements.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure any region does one or the other “better.” These numbers probably reflect the slant of the goals of students on these campuses. Future docs seem pretty similar in number wherever you look. Probably more law/business minded types in the Northeast at places likely Amherst and Middlebury with more future PhDs at places like Carleton, Grinnell and Reed. Still lots and lots of overlap. Swatties, for example, about as PhD prone as any undergrad group in the country.</p>

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<p>Coming from the Mid-Atlantic, I applied to (and visited) LACs in the NE, Midwest, and West coast. The Midwestern LACs tend to have a lower profile, slightly less selective, but are just as good academically and sometimes give merit aid. The top Midwestern LACs are also “quirkier” than their equivalent in the Northeast, as well as being more laid-back. Except for Macalester, urban locales are hard to come by.</p>

<p>I’m in the fortunate position of qualifying for need-based aid as a middle-class applicant, with parents willing to pay our hefty EFC, so I had no financial bias in choosing between Midwest and Northeast. To my parents’ dismay, I ended up applying to two LACs on the East Coast and four in the Midwest.</p>

<p>I don’t think Northeasterners are unfriendly so much as more brusque and blunt; I was surprised by HOW friendly the Midwestern LACs were, but not in a negative comparison to the Northeast.</p>

<p>Side note–North Carolina (Elon) isn’t Mid-Atlantic! ;)</p>

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<p>Note to OP: don’t overlook Tufts University. It’s ranked by US News as a “National University,” but it is smallish and is adjacent to Boston and its vibrant music scene.</p>

35

<p>Another subtle difference between NE and midwest LACs is the academic climates in which they exist. Midwestern states have traditionally strong state college systems. In my own state - Wisconsin - 85% of college bound students attend either a WI or MN state school. I imagine the numbers are similar in many other midwestern states. With such strong public systems available, midwest schools have to have something different or special in order for them to stay in business. I believe that is why most of them, even they highly ranked ones, offer merit aid. The cost of attending an LAC for a midwest student has to be justified when you have the option of attending a much lower priced but highly regarded state university. Many states in the NE, however, do not have the tradition of exceptionally strong state schools. It is one of the reasons that there are so many LACs in the NE. Growing up in PA, private schools were almost always considered superior to state school. PA has about 10 times the number of private colleges than WI. So both areas have competition but the competition is subtly different and will create some differences in the institutions.</p>

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<p>Perfectly put, shennie. While there are some Midwesterners on collegeconfidential who will try to convince you that they don’t even know any high school kids who aren’t losing sleep over a Stanford-or-Amherst type decision, I think that sort of thinking is only COMMON in some very limited areas (Northern suburbs of Chicago, Ann Arbor, a few wealthy suburbs of Detroit, etc.). </p>

<p>The vast majority of Midwestern kids seem to scan the horizion, see little to be learned at private and/or out-of-state colleges that can’t be learned at in-state publics for a fraction of the price, and don’t look any further. And within their in-state public options, it’s almost always the case that the bigger schools are the better schools. In Michigan I’ve often heard people say something like, “I didn’t do very well in high school, so I had to go to a small college” --often meaning somewhere other than Michigan or Michigan State. </p>

<p>I spent some time as a grad student at Indiana U., and I couldn’t believe how under-the-radar Notre Dame was for the people from Indiana. For them it seemed to be bizarre that somebody from the state couldn’t find what they were looking for at I.U. or Purdue.</p>

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<p>

I believe it was the other way around, historically.</p>

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<p>shennie and tk are both correct. The NE has many more private, initially church-established (virtually all LACs and Ivies) institutions. Because of their initial presence, public, state-sponsored institutions were less necessary, generally of lower quality and always less preferred. Until the reality of today’s econonomics made many elitist colleges and universities less affordable, and LACs with liberal learning less attractive than those with general and vocational curricula. </p>

<p>Today, however, even in the NE, the statistics are very similar in terms of students attending publix vs. privates. And consequently, we’ve seen the rise of selectivity among the publix. Generally, it’s far more difficult gaining admission to Pitt or Penn State Main these days than the Alleghenies and Susquehannas and Juniatas and …</p>

<p>However, in many cases, despite the huge price tags on the privates, net cost is often lower at the privates, with the Pitts and Penn States awarding zilch in FA.</p>

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<p>^Depends on what privates you’re looking at. The top LACs give generous need-based aid and lower-tier PA schools like Allegheny give generous merit-based aid.</p>

40

<p>Of course. The Bucknell’s, Lehigh’s, Carnegie Mellons give very little in merit aid. There view is market driven. Don’t need to to fill the class w/ a profile that satisfies. There are only a relative handful of these, i.e. those that are genuinely sufficiently selective to be able to avoid meaningful merit FA to significant #s of students, i.e. those where reputation allows them to charge the sticker price. And that’s true nationally as well, w/ one major asterisk at this point in time …their has been an increasing # of prospective students graduating from HS, and virtually all institutions have had rising #s of applications, deluding them into perceiving their reputations are ever-improving. Some have grown their enrollments accordingly, and will find, as they did in the 80s, the numbers are unsustainable. </p>

<p>But for the current student, the market place generally benefits the seller. Bummer.</p>