How do Midwest LACs compare to Northeast LACs?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Shennie and Schmaltz,
With respect, I note that you omit many crucial differences between the NE and Midwest that affect the role of private and public universities:</p>

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<li><p>The Northeast has more Catholics, many of whom want to attend Catholic colleges–such as in Philadelphia, where Villanova, St. Josephs and LaSalle are all prominent. There are, of course, Catholic colleges in the Midwest, but not in such numbers. The East also has a much larger number of historically black colleges and probably women’s colleges, giving students seeking those alternatives to public universities more options.</p></li>
<li><p>Simply stating that, without any proof, that MW kids are more public-school oriented does not make it true. The suburbs of New York City and Philadelphia are more like the suburbs of Chicago than they are like the vast majority of PA and NY. Kids in central NY and PA view SUNY and Penn State the way Indiana kids view IU.</p></li>
<li><p>Similarly, unsupported claims that MW public universities were traditionally stronger than NE public schools are not proof. For example, City College of New York, only 1 of the public colleges in the city university system, has produced 10 Nobel Prize winners. </p></li>
<li><p>Distance also plays an important role: in the NE, the distances between states are generally smaller–300 miles of driving can take you through DE, PA, NY, CT, RI, MA, NH and ME on I95. Kids wanting to stay within a day’s drive of home in the Midwest often have fewer options. Similarly, the small populations of RI, ME, VT, DE and NH result in smaller flagships, making them less visible, although not necesarily weaker.</p></li>
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<p>Most of all, the term “Northeast” has little real meaning–people disagree about whether PA, NJ and DE are Northeastern or Midatlantic and New Englanders outside the NYC suburbs do not see their region as including New York.</p>

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<p>Yabeyabe, I don’t know how much time you’ve spent in the Midwest, but you’re on pretty thin ice with some of your comments.</p>

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<li><p>Plenty of Catholics in both the Midwest and the Northeast. If kids in the Midwest want to go to private colleges in general, and Catholic colleges in particular, it’s not like they couldn’t find any. But the advantages of privates (Catholic and otherwise) just don’t seem to be worth the extra money to a vast majority of Midwestern kids. </p></li>
<li><p>Nobody’s saying 100% of areas in the Northeast ignore in-state publics. But having gone to high school and undergrad in Mass., and knowing people from all over the area, the % of people there whose first choice is an in-state public school pales compared to the Midwest. </p></li>
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<p>3/4. CCNY/CUNY had a good run in the first half of the 20th Century, but that’s history now. Have you checked the SAT ranges for the various CUNY campuses lately? Kinda doubt they’re attracting many future Nobel winners these days. Penn State has plenty of fans…no dispute there. Same with Pitt. The rest (UMass, SUNYs, Rutgers, etc.) are fine schools–nobody’s questioning their quality-- but even with their cheap in-state tuition, a lot of students who can avoid them seem to do so…go to any highly regarded public school in the country (U of Michigan, U of Maryland, U of Virginia, wherever) and you’ll find tons of NYC/NJ students who’ve travelled hundreds of miles to avoid their in-state publics.</p>

<p>You must be one of the few people around who’s confused about whether Pa, NJ, and Delaware are in the “Northeast.”</p>

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<p>Schmaltz, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, but opinions are not facts. For example, although you say “Plenty of Catholics in both the Midwest and the Northeast”, in fact, of the 7 states where Catholics are more than 30% of the population, 6, including the top 5, are in the Northeast and the seventh is California. </p>

<p>Do you have anything other than anecdotes to support the claim that “the % of people there whose first choice is an in-state public school pales compared to the Midwest”? I have not seen any either way.</p>

<p>You did not read the CCNY comment carefully–it was in response to the claim that Midwest public were traditionally stronger, which would indeed relate to the past, before the open admissions policy of CCNY, which, although perhaps a noble idea, damaged their SAT ranges.</p>

<p>When you say “go to any highly regarded public school in the country (U of Michigan, U of Maryland, U of Virginia, wherever) and you’ll find tons of NYC/NJ students who’ve travelled hundreds of miles to avoid their in-state publics” I am with you until you say “avoid their in-state publics.” At SUNY Binghamton, more than 50% of freshmen were in the top 10% of their high school class and scored over 1230/1600 on the SAT I; TCNJ has higher SATS, but I do not know about their class ranks–how does this stack up against Midwestern publics? Many of these kids are not travelling hundreds of miles to “avoid” their in state publics, but to go to college some distance from home. As I noted, in large state like Ohio, MI, MN, WIS, you can go to the flagship and be a good distance from home; in NJ, RI, VT, NH, CT, or MA, your parents are only an hour away, which is too close for many kids. Others may be go to see big time football, which NY, MA, RI ME, NH, DE and VT publics do not offer.
Do you think all those Midwestern kids at the Ivies, Haverford, Amherst, etc are there to “avoid” Midwestern privates?</p>

<p>As for your comment about PA , NJ and DE being Northeast, people here often think about either New England being a region and the Midatlantic another. Parts of NJ and DE are further south than Maryland.</p>

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<p>Not to be persnickety, but the fictional location “Ma and Pa Kettle” series of movies were the ‘hills and hollers’ of Washington State, not the midwest or the plains.l</p>

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<p>Among the vast reaches of the many things I know not, THAT is one of them. Make a great trivial pursuit question.</p>

<p>Still, Yakima ain’t the epicenter of sophistication and culture. Ma n Pa’d fit in at the barn dance in Ottumwa, Iowa easier than a cocktail bash @ your neighbor Billy G’s techno-palace! </p>

<p>Thanks for sharing this gem. How do you know this??? And please pardon my ignorance.</p>

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<p>This thread offers proof yet again that slandering the Northeast never gets old in some quarters.</p>

<p>Making up ludicrous BS about evil people from CT vs saints from Nebraska. Making up ludicrous generalizations about what “everyone” from New England supposedly thinks about “everyone” in the midwest. Yadda, yadda, yadda.</p>

<p>It makes me tired.</p>

<p>The fact is that there are a range of LACs available in both the midwest and the northeast, and if you look you will likely find several that are attractive in both areas.</p>

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<p>Isn’t DePaul, here in Chicago, the largest Catholic university in the country? DePaul and Loyola play the same role in Chicago as BC does in Boston, Villanova in Philly, etc.</p>

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<p>I disagree. There are many, many fine students here in the Chicagoland area that simply aren’t thinking beyond UofI. Fine school, good price (relatively speaking) – it’s not looked down as a choice for a smart student the way the state schools tend to be in the East Coast, IMO.</p>

<p>I do agree that upper-middle-class suburban living outside Chicago, or Minneapolis, or St. Louis, or Kansas City, or Cincinnati, really isn’t THAT different from upper-middle-class suburban living outside NYC, Boston, Philly. </p>

<p>As someone born in NJ and raised in PA, though, of course those states (and DE) are part of the Northeast. DE is essentially suburban Philly.</p>

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<p>Exactly! It needn’t be a comparison – what are midwest LAC’s like compared to northeast LAC’s. It’s an “and,” not a “versus.” No reason for a LAC-liking kid not to consider both options. The midwest LAC’s are not all-of-a-kind and neither are the northeast LAC’s.</p>

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<p>There is a difference between “the northeast” and “New England.” That’s all. What is generally called “the northeast” includes both New England and the Mid-Atlantic states. It would appear to me that many people from other regions do not understand that there is a big difference culturally between NYC and Philadelphia and rural VT, NH, and ME, for example.</p>

<p>BTW, Ma and Pa Kettle first appeared in The Egg and I by Betty Macdonald and its sequels. They were not exactly the salt of the earth Christian conservatives that Whistle Pig would evidently like to imagine. Very funny books.</p>

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<p>Oh, I totally agree that there is a big cultural difference between NYC/Phila and rural VT/NH/ME. In fact, I would say rural VT/NH/ME has some things in common with the rural midwest (though not all). It’s an interesting mindgame - would Dartmouth be Dartmouth if it were in a mythical Hanover, Iowa versus Hanover, New Hampshire …</p>

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<p>Consoling Consolation, he/she makes some valid, if rough points. (Are you from CT? Just wondering.) </p>

<p>Specifically, that generally individuals are all rather specific, i.e. unique, different. The potential for becoming a horse-hynie in Iowa is probably equal to a mule’s petoot in Vermont. And if one swapped the populations between the 2 states, imposing the values and culture of each on the other, well, who knows what’d come out. But I’m fully confident the goings-on seen in the schools of Brattleboro would fly for about 3 minutes, until the school board could convene in Crete, NE to shoot that puppy down.</p>

<p>Get real. These are cultural differences, and in some ways like going from USA to Malaysia. But in truth, NEers can’t help the way they are. They’re victims of many things. Their voting records …isn’t that revealing?..Their excess proximity to others who share their ideas of heaven. Their too long commutes in man-made dioxide manufactured machines. </p>

<p>But they is different. Pick your poison, for sure. As for me? Gimme the tulips of Holland MI and Pella IA. Keep your platform tennis in Stamford. It’s a lousy game. </p>

<p>But, I’m betting this …were you from Bemidji, Minnesota, you’d have a greater love for the Prarie Home Companion and a softer tenor. Viva la differance. (That’s Texan for "she’s a different breeda heiffer, ain’t she?) I’m not sure why you find the generalizations so offensive?</p>

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<p>I just dropped my kid off at Dartmouth yesterday…it was beautiful in the snow, as always. Driving through the snowy mountains of that particular scale… the predominant colonial clapboard and brick architecture…the small town in a river valley…the arrangement of the campus around a town common/green…all of it is so quintessentially northern New England. It’s a school that is very rooted in its place.</p>

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<p>Whistle Pig, I’m sorry, but I find your style–larded as it is with insults and faux folksiness–just too laborious and unpleasant to penetrate.</p>

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<p>I suspect so. Chin up. Lighten up, Francis. No harm intended. This is the fun part. Wait until your tuition bill comes from Big Greenland if you want to bark.</p>

<p>Now, 'scuse me while I go milk the herd and churn up some curds and whey.</p>

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<p>Francis? Bark? Luckily our S has a large scholarship. Maybe I should go visit my hens and see if they have laid any eggs today. Unlike your probably imaginary herd of cows, they actually do exist.</p>

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<p>Don’t put words in my mouth. My point is that, in general, MW universities are less prestigious, selective and popular than NE universities in the same way that MW LACs are less prestigious, selective and popular than NE LACs. There is nothing controversial about this claim.</p>

<p>The fact that you list the above universities as the best that the Midwest has to offer seems to support my claim. All of these schools are ivy backups, with the exception of IU which is a backup to ivy backups.</p>

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<p>Boy, the b.s. is flying around this thread. </p>

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<p>As for Catholics in the Midwest, Illinois is 30% Catholic, Wisconsin 29%, Minnesota 25%, Michigan 23%, and Roman Catholicism is the largest religious denomination in all these states. Granted, the percentages are somewhat higher in Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey, but given the large populations of these major Midwestern states, these are hardly trivial numbers of Catholics. LOL, there are roughly as many Catholics just in Illinois and Wisconsin—most of them around heavily Catholic Chicago and Milwaukee—as in all of New England, and the Archdiocese of Chicago with 2.4 million Catholics rivals the Archdiocese of New York’s 2.5 million for the title of second-largest in the U.S. (after the Archdiocese of Los Angeles with a whopping 5 million). Pennsylvania, by the way, is 27% Catholic, less than Illinois or Wisconsin. </p>

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<p>Hmmm . . . According to the Association of Catholic Colleges and Universities, there are 80 Catholic colleges and universities in Midwestern states—roughly 1/3 of the 244 Catholic colleges and universities in the U.S., even though this region has only about 22% of the nation’s population. To be sure, there are a lot of Catholic colleges and universities in the Mid-Atlantic and New England states as well, but there’s certainly no shortage of them in the Midwest. Are you perhaps thinking of the South?</p>

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<p>It’s indirect evidence, but the yield rate at public flagships or quasi-flagships gives us some indication. In general, a higher percentage of admitted students actually enroll in Midwestern public flagships; a larger percentage of admitted students at Eastern public flagships “vote with their feet” and matriculate elsewhere, suggesting that those schools are not the first choice of a larger fraction of their applicants. What these figures don’t tell us, of course, is how many college-bound seniors don’t even bother to apply to their in-state public flagship. In addition, the figures are muddied a bit by OOS applicants whose financial calculus will be different. But a low yield for a public flagship at least tells us, in an imprecise way, that it’s not the first choice of many state residents.</p>

<p>Yield: Midwest
University of Michigan 46.0%
UIUC 45.6%
University of Wisconsin-Madison 43.0%
Ohio State 42.3%
Michigan State 42.2%
Indiana 34.3%
Minnesota-Twin Cities 33.3%
Iowa 33.1%</p>

<p>Yield: East
Penn State 36.2%
U Maryland-College Park 35.6%
Rutgers 35.4%
UConn 31.4%
U Delaware 28.0%
SUNY Binghamton 23.8%
U Mass-Amherst 22.3%</p>

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<p>Thank you for bringing facts to the thread, bclintonk. I was rather agape at the suggestion that you don’t find Catholics in the midwest. DePaul, Notre Dame and Marquette are among 3 universities that might beg to differ. I do think the poster is confusing the midwest with the south, where there is far less Catholic presence.</p>

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<p>Less prestigious and less popular among whom? You’ve made the classic mistake that the only opinions that count are the opinions of students in the NE. “More popular in the NE” =/= “more popular everywhere.” “More prestigious in the NE” =/= “more prestigious everywhere.” It’s all regional.</p>

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<p>In Wisconsin alone there are 9 Catholic colleges and Universities – Marquette, Cardinal Stritch, Alverno, Mount Mary, Marian, Edgewood, Viterbo, Silver Lake and St. Norbert’s. Minnesota has St. Benedict/St.John’s, St. Catherine’s, St. Thomas, St. Scholastica, and St. Mary’s. Illinois has DePaul, Loyola, St. Xavier, Dominican, Lewis, Quincy and St. Francis.</p>

<p>The point is that there is no shortage of Catholic colleges in the midwest. And unlike the NE, there are an awful lot of Lutheran colleges in this area, too, especially in Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconsin.</p>