<p>Fascinating. You’re “quite certain” that it happens. How do you explain the fact that at my house we had girls of all different religious backgrounds, racial backgrounds, and social class backgrounds? </p>
<p>I was the rush director of my sorority and also served as rush counselor (temporarily disaffiliated and counseled rushees through the system). </p>
<p>A girl’s race did not come up in the least during discussions. Religion? How the heck would we know what religion she was, unless maybe she had something obvious such as religiously-themed jewelry – and why on earth would that matter in the least, if we mutually enjoyed one another’s company? Social class? How would we know what “social class” she belonged to or what her daddy did, and why would that matter in the least, if we mutually enjoyed one another’s company?</p>
<p>Yes, there probably are some ugly people who choose their friends based on social class, etc. However, do you think that that is exclusive to a Greek system? Those people would be the same way regardless of a Greek system – and why is “rejection” by people that shallow of any concern whatsoever?</p>
<p>You’re just engaging in silly stereotypes that you want to believe. It’s tiresome.</p>
<p>This always comes up – this “social segregation” – and I find it really, really weird. Joining a Greek organization doesn’t mean you’re never allowed to talk to or become friends with anyone else on campus. Of course you still have other friends from other activities you might do, classes you have together, etc. Now, you may choose to mostly hang around people in your house – because you enjoy their company! – but it’s not “segregated.” Is it social segregation if you join the tennis team and wind up hanging around your fellow tennis team members because you really enjoy their company and have a common interest? Of course not. So why is it any different with a Greek organization?</p>
<p>I’d like to know where people get the idea that all kids in Greek-letter organizations are rich. When I was in school most of the girls in my chapter came from blue-collar, rural backgrounds and worked to pay their dues. I was one of the few who came from a white-collar background and wasn’t a first-gen student. My parents did pay my dues, but I worked to pay for the extras such as dances, gifts, etc. And I don’t know why people think GLOs are so exclusionary. The people who are interested in Greek life tend to fit in anyway, and people for whom it isn’t their thing tend not to rush in the first place. It’s more self-selection than anything else. </p>
<p>I’d also like to know why it is that people who weren’t Greek in college tend to be very critical of Greek life, but those of us who were don’t rush in and criticize independents.</p>
<p>Well, the supposed “snobbiness” of Greek life seems to resonate most highly with those who aren’t in it, than those who are / were in it, who believe it or not, don’t walk around snubbing non-Greeks all the livelong day. We don’t CARE if you’re not Greek. You have nothing to prove. Great, see you around campus.</p>
<p>Re: the comment about girls being rejected because they were overweight, etc. That scandal was a bit more complicated than that, but the house was also kicked off campus and has not been recolonized at the school either. That is because those actions were so unusual to Greek life. It also lead to the upper management of the organization being reorganized. What happened to Delta Zeta at DePauw made news because it was such a rare occurrence.</p>
<p>Soze, I went to college as a pretty typical upper-middle class white student from a suburban area. In my house, many girls were on financial aid. One of my best friends (that I’m still friendly with) came from a very working-class background, went to NU undergrad and NU law school and graduated first in her class. Several came from blue-collar backgrounds. Most were middle class, and then there were a few who were upper-middle class (parents who were doctors, lawyers, that type of thing). There’s no one I would have really termed as “rich.” My junior year, the president of the house was Hispanic. Two years later, the president of the house was African-American. No one thought twice about any of this. At all. </p>
<p>My H belonged to the “Jewish house.” The president of the house was African-American. One of H’s best friends in the house was of Thai descent. Again, no one thought twice about any of these. You’re taking the stereotypes of how some of the Southern houses behave and applying them universally.</p>
<p>@Pizzagirl:
So… what criteria did you use to determine who got accepted and rejected from your house?</p>
<p>What qualifications did the people making these determinations have which allows them to do this?</p>
<p>What protocols where in place to insure that people were evaluated fairly?</p>
<p>Given that you were all students at the same school, would you not think that everybody is entitled to a chance at the same college experience, not just the students whom you deem to be “acceptable?”</p>
<p>The same criteria you use when you meet 25 people from your dorm at a party and you determine that you like / want to hang around A, B, C, and D and that you don’t want to hang around W, X, Y, and Z. (Or the same criteria I use as an adult when I go to functions at my children’s school and meet other parents.) Do I like them? Do we think we have something in common? Do we enjoy chatting with / getting to know one another? Do we think we have the same / similar sensibilities?</p>
<p>What on earth did you THINK it was? </p>
<p>What “qualifications” did they have? What qualifications do you need to determine whether you think you like / want to get to know someone better, or not? I can tell you based on a few years posting here on CC, that there are certain posters I’d probably really enjoy in real life, and others that I probably wouldn’t (though of course I’d wish them all well and would certainly be polite and courteous if our paths crossed). Did I need “qualifications” to determine that? </p>
<p>And as for what protocols were in place to ensure that people were treated fairly … oh my goodness. Are you kidding? There were TONS of protocols in place to ensure that people were treated fairly. Without giving away too much detail, a girl couldn’t be cut unless X number of current members had the chance to meet her – so the opinion of any one girl didn’t hold undue weight. We absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, could not say anything disrespectful about a girl when discussing whether to invite her back. We did not talk about race, religion, perceived social status – it was completely irrelevant to anything. As for things like clothing and appearance, we absolutely did not discuss that except in the context of identifying a girl (“Suzy? She was the girl with long blonde hair and glasses in the red shirt who was sitting by the fireplace next to Mary.”) </p>
<p>I know you want desperately to believe that we all sat around and tittered, “Can you IMAGINE letting that loser join our house? Did you get a load of her hair? Did you see that she was wearing last year’s Tory Burch, and her father’s only in middle management – eww!” but it wasn’t that way in the least.</p>
<p>But … you won’t believe me. You want to believe what you want to believe.</p>
<p>Do you not get that we were not making determinations as to who was “acceptable” or not, but making determinations as to who we wanted to be friendly with? Do you seriously not get the difference?</p>
<p>When I go to events at my kids’ school and meet other parents, I can tell pretty quickly if these are people I wish to get to know better, go out for coffee with, etc. or whether these are people that I’m not interested in. I’m not deeming them “unacceptable” – I’m merely saying that our initial conversations didn’t make me want to get to know them any better.</p>
<p>My son’s frat dues are about $500/semester. That is separate from the housing and meal plan fees he pays for living in the frat house and eating some of his meals there - and I should point out that the frat’s housing and meal fees are lower than the college’s fees for dorms and the college meal plan. (Housing is a little lower, meals are a LOT cheaper). S earns some of his dues money by washing dishes after 2 meals per week. He has also gotten a $250 scholarship from the National fraternity for several semesters because his GPA was above a certain cut-off (he has a 3.8, don’t know what the cut-off is). </p>
<p>D’s college says that sorority fees range from $700 - $900/year. Again, I assume that’s just dues.</p>
<p>I have been told by others that dues at some frats runs into the thousands of $ per year - but I have never seen that at my college, or my kids’ colleges.</p>
<p>The same criteria that the girls used when determining whether they wanted to accept our invitations back for the next round, or drop us from further consideration. You seem to be unaware that it’s a two-way street.</p>
<p>I have no problem with greek life on campus. That is definitely something that people choose to do and I don’t participate with greek life because I wouldn’t fit in being a very independent person.</p>
<p>However, I’ve had a few bad experiences. I knew these people first semester and I wouldn’t say we were friends but we hung out a lot. They decided to pledge in the spring and afterwards they started being a complete jerk to me because I wasn’t in greek life. I would imagine that they are the exception but it’s just given me a bitter view about people in greek life.</p>
<p>And I think a problem is that it’s not obvious enough what the benefits of greek life are outside of parties to people who aren’t in greek life. All I hear from people in greek life are crazy parties, getting wasted etc…, I hear nothing of anything that happens in greek life outside of this.</p>
<p>There’s obviously considerable misunderstanding about greek organizations on college campuses. When I went to college, I did not join a greek organization. I did however, have many friends who were in a variety of greek organizations. We continued to do all the things college friends do (hang-out, eat pizza, intramural sports, ski trips, etc…) plus they did some extra things with their greek orgs. There was never anything exclusionary or nefarious involved. </p>
<p>One of my children has decided to participate in greek life on campus. A major part of their social activity is philanthropic in nature. Participating in fund raisers with other greek houses. On a large campus, there is some type of charitable activity every other week. Yes, there are parties and yes alcohol is involved. But even there a little organization helps with “unofficial” designated drivers assigned to make sure everyone is transported responsibly. They are unofficial because the national organization frowns on organizing activities to parties where alcohol is served. I don’t understand this policy as using designated drivers in this fashion sounds way more responsible than other alternatives. </p>
<p>Finally, selection for women’s greek organizations is a mutual ranking decision over the course of a week or two with numerous chances to meet all the potential greeks and the greek orginizations. Anyone getting a “Rejection” from all greek participation is overwhelmingly based on grades. The idea being, if you aren’t keeping your grades up you won’t be able to keep up with an increase in extracurricular activities. The next most common form of “rejection” is lack of an open mind from the potential member. Because the recruitment process is a mutual ranking match, some students may not match with their top choice. As some organizations may not match with their top member choices. When this happens, sometimes the potential greek decides that they have been “rejected” and in turn rejects all of the other organizations which could prove to be a great place to make friends and have a great experience. If the potential greek had kept an open mind and continued through the process, they would find that there are other options that fit them quite well. I suspect that there may be other reasons for not being matched for participation, but they are few and far between. The vast majority of students who do not get matched are for grades or for self-selecting out of the process.</p>
<p>@My3tuitions:
Your description of this process makes my skin crawl.
So you basically have a bunch of “kids” ranking another bunch of “younger kids” based on arbitrary social criteria (e.g. how much they “like” them).</p>
<p>Every student deserves the same chance at having the same college experience, regardless of how “popular” or “likable” they are. </p>
<p>Where I went to college we had a simple rule which worked very well: all student organizations had to be completely open to all members and charge no dues. The only exception to this that was allowed was where you could demonstrate that a particular “competency” was necessary for participation (singing groups are a prime example of this). This insured that the full spectrum of the college experience was available to all, nobody was excluded or rejected and we all had a great time.</p>
<p>If every student <em>deserves</em> the same chance at having the same college experience, we will have to eliminate tuition (heaven forbid some kid might have to work or take out loans), provide identical dorm rooms, open all sports team to walk ons, etc., etc.</p>
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<p>News flash to soze: College is not pre-school, no one has to invite you to their birthday party anymore, or give you equal time on the play equipment. If no one likes you because you are a very unpleasant person, well too bad, you will be excluded from most private social events and on your own most of the time. College is the time to grow up and be responsible for your own happiness.</p>
<p>@ Soze - Aren’t good grades indicative of “competency?” As My3tuitions said, most potential new members are released from consideration due to grades. PNMs who maximize their options, keep and open mind and don’t zero in on one or two chapters most generally get bids. And remember, PNMs are eliminating chapters, too. Like everything else in life, the system isn’t perfect, but it works well most of the time.</p>
<p>I don’t have a dog in this fight…I could go either with the fraternity thing. I didn’t do one -just not my cup of tea. Husband was in one and loved it. The way I see it there are a lot of pros and cons to it. Son hasn’t decided if he will join one - I’m encouraging him to rush just to see what it’s like but I would be just as happy whether he joins one or not.</p>
<p>However, since I didn’t belong to a sorority I am curious about the grade thing - how exactly does that work since at many colleges ‘rush’ takes place during the first week of school…long before anyone has a chance to earn a grade. Are pledges ‘cut’ after the first semester grades come out? Or are they required to submit their HS transcripts? Just wondering.</p>
<p>My D’s sorrority has the highest GPA of any group on campus, the sorrority system in general has the highest GPA of any organization. Most of the officers are also members of the various honors societies, as well. </p>
<p>Our only involvement is in paying the bills. H was in a fraternity and I was not much of a one to join in, but I had a lot of greek friends. I never felt it was particularly exclusionary. If I’d have wanted to do those things, I’d have joined. </p>
<p>As for the kids who go greek, I really don’t think they give a flying fig what the kids who don’t go greek think about them. It’s plenty busy and all of them are involved in all sorts of thngs, at least on D’s campus. </p>
<p>Why on earth on a college board dedicated to the entirely exclusionary activity of college applications somebody would get up in arms about people having the “same college experience” as somebody else is beyond me. The application process assures that kids wil NOT have the same experience as other kids. The greek rush system does the same for those who are more socially group minded than those who are not.</p>
<p>Join or do not join. But if you find yourself running around thinking all the time about what the other group is doing or thinking? You’d probably better join the other group.</p>