How do the LAC and National University Rankings Converge?

<p>Hey guys, I've been wondering and thinking that USNWR show converge the lists of national universities and LACs for our pleasure to know what the rank of any given bachelors degree granting college is--rather than have two separate lists. For our, and my, pleasure, would you guys try to converge these lists? Rule: You may not rearrange the order of universities or LACs, you must just put the LACs into the universities lists, without changing their order. If there is some kind of formula or if someone has already done this, let me know!</p>

<p>Note that I'm not some sick kid who wants the absolute highest ranked college. I'm just curious and I love stats like this! :D</p>

<p>Universities:
1 Harvard University
2 Princeton University
3 Yale University
4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
4 Stanford University
6 California Institute of Technology
6 University of Pennsylvania<br>
8 Columbia University
8 Duke University
8 University of Chicago
11 Dartmouth College
12 Northwestern University
12 Washington University in St. Louis
14 Cornell University
15 Johns Hopkins University
16 Brown University
17 Rice University
18 Emory University
18 University of Notre Dame
18 Vanderbilt University</p>

<p>LACS:
1 Amherst College
1 Williams College
3 Swarthmore College
4 Wellesley College
5 Middlebury College
6 Bowdoin College
6 Pomona College
8 Carleton College
9 Davidson College<br>
10 Haverford College
11 Claremont McKenna College
11 Vassar College
13 Wesleyan University
14 Grinnell College</p>

<p>I would say Amherst is around number nine or ten.</p>

<p>I’m especially interested in where Claremont McKenna would sit overall. Would it be higher or lower than Vanderbilt (if so, how much higher/lower). I’m just curious & it definitely won’t factor into my decision.</p>

<p>While I do not want to discourage people from compiling their own list if that’s interesting or fun, I would suggest taking a look at Forbes’ magazine’s list of best colleges 2008. They compare LACs and national universities on the same list, explaining in great detail how they came to their conclusions. Here’s the link to the article. A little bit down the page is a link called “complete college rankings” which will take you directly to their list.</p>

<p>[America’s</a> Best Colleges 2008 - Forbes.com](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/13/college-university-rankings-oped-college08-cx_rv_mn_0813intro.html]America’s”>America's Best Colleges 2008)</p>

<p>In case this is helpful…If not, have fun compiling your own list. :)</p>

<p>NealJ2K…</p>

<p>Looking at Forbes’ list, Claremont McKenna is ranked at 40 and Vanderbilt at 105.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth…</p>

<p>Vanderbilt at 105? That’s funny.</p>

<p>Yea, forbes’ list is kinda ridiculous</p>

<p>I think the Forbes list is wack. I love how Dartmouth and Brown don’t even make the cut for top 50.</p>

<p>see, I’m not sure you can compare national unis and LACs… they are so different by nature. those rankings for each are on a relative basis. for example, take alumni giving rate. most of the top 15 LACs beat every single uni but princeton (approximately)… resources will vary as well (HYP endowment/student vs. Amherst/Midd/Wes endowment/student)… so you cant use US News rankings as a basis for combining the two. selectivity is this way as well. the ivies are much more “visible” than the top LACs, despite being comparable for an undergrad education.</p>

<p>If you want to compare apples to oranges, dont let the banana (US News) decide. you would have to be careful which attributes to include if doing a numbers comparison. you’re almost better off going by reputation alone…</p>

<p>Neal-- I think your question is a good one, albeit full-fledged universities are different than LACs, obviously. But if you want to compare some aspect, it can be done. Here’s my (perhaps imperfect) attempt at merging the two lists on the US News ‘selectivity’ criterion:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/687793-selectivity-ranking-national-us-lacs-combined-usnews-method.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/687793-selectivity-ranking-national-us-lacs-combined-usnews-method.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>One can also take some other (imperfect) measure, like the US News-reported peer score (highly contentious) or class size data if that’s what is important to you.</p>

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<p>Forbes ranks Brown at #27. Dartmouth isn’t in their top 100. I don’t see what kind of criteria can make Princeton come out #1, Williams and Amherst in the top 10 but Dartmouth at 100+, which would otherwise seem to not have LAC, non-grad school bias.</p>

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<p>In a lot of cases, I don’t think they’re that different. Aside from differences in student quality, I don’t really see how the academic experience at Dartmouth and Brown (in the nat’l univ category but not that much emphasis on grad schools) is much different from the larger LACs like Bucknell, Colgate, Wesleyan.</p>

<p>I agree that some nat’l unis and LACs are similar, like you said, but you’re analyzing one end of each continuum. haverford and harvard would result in very different experiences, as would, say, bowdoin and cornell/columbia/penn.</p>

<p>1 Harvard University
2 Princeton University
3 Yale University
4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
4 Stanford University
6 California Institute of Technology
1 Williams College
1 Amherst College
3 Swarthmore College
6 University of Pennsylvania
8 Columbia University
8 Duke University
8 University of Chicago
11 Dartmouth College
4 Wellesley College
12 Northwestern University
12 Washington University in St. Louis
14 Cornell University
15 Johns Hopkins University
5 Middlebury College
6 Bowdoin College
6 Pomona College
16 Brown University
8 Carleton College
9 Davidson College
10 Haverford College
11 Claremont McKenna College
17 Rice University
18 Emory University
18 University of Notre Dame
11 Vassar College
13 Wesleyan University
18 Vanderbilt University
14 Grinnell College </p>

<p>That we can’t rearrange the National Universities and LAC lists is ridiculous.
They’re very, very flawed in themselves.
But, I’ll humor you.</p>

<p>wustl is way overrated, i certainly would not put it ahead of jhu, cornell and brown.</p>

<p>I would put amherst, williams, and swarthmore right behind all of the ivies + ivy equivalents</p>

<p>and then I would put the rest starting from wellesley all behind vandy</p>

<p>fwiw (arguably, not much), here are the top 50 schools by SAT (avg of the USNews reported 25%ile and 75%ile of CR+M, fall '07 freshman)</p>

<p>1 Cal Tech 1525
2 Harvard 1495
2 Harvey Mudd 1495
2 Yale 1495
5 Princeton 1485
6 MIT 1470
7 Pomona 1455
8 Columbia 1450
8 Swarthmore 1450
8 Wash U 1450
11 Stanford 1445
12 Dartmouth 1440
12 Duke 1440
14 Northwestern 1435
15 Amherst 1430
15 Brown 1430
15 Chicago 1430
15 Penn 1430
15 Williams 1430
20 Rice 1420
21 Tufts 1415
22 Notre Dame 1405
23 Carleton 1400
23 Claremont McK 1400
25 Cornell 1395
25 Georgetown 1395
25 JHU 1395
25 Middlebury 1395
25 Wesleyan 1395
30 Carnegie Mellon 1390
30 Haverford 1390
30 Reed 1390
30 Vanderbilt 1390
30 Wellesley 1390
35 Bowdoin 1385
35 Emory 1385
35 Vassar 1385
35 Wash & Lee 1385
39 Brandeis 1370
39 Hamilton 1370
41 Oberlin 1365
41 USC 1365
43 Colby 1360
43 Grinnell 1360
43 Scripps 1360
46 Davidson 1355
47 Barnard 1350
47 William&Mary 1350
49 UC Berkeley 1345
50 Colgate 1340</p>

<p>It must be recognized that, in the above list, for multi-college universities you are lumping together apples and oranges, then comparing them with predominantly liberal arts colleges that have only apples.</p>

<p>For most purposes, a student considering applying to a liberal arts college, such as most of the schools on the above list, should be primarily concerned about the admissions profile of a given university’s liberal arts college, and not the other specialty colleges at that university that the student is not applying to. </p>

<p>For example, at Cornell the comparable stats for its College of Arts & Sciences is 1415. For its engineering college it was 1440. These differences may be material to applicants to particular colleges there. The same applies to other multi-college universities on the list. An applicant is not applying to some imaginary amalgam of a university’s colleges, only to specific colleges there.</p>

<p>jwu: I agree the rankings are flawed, but everyone has their own idea of what the rankings should be, and thus, there is no “one” ranking system that is correct. My thoughts were that if I stuck to a specific (USNWR in this case) ranking system and suggested against alterations, I could see where the LACs fell into the NU ranks. I was specifically interested in where the USNWR rankings would converge–then we could draw our own conclusions on where they should finally be move.</p>