Look, when you go to some low grade college, the issue is the quality of fellow students and how that lowers the bar. But when you’re talking about top XX colleges, it’s a higher level of prep, direction, experience. That can extend mighty far down the list. (And let’s not assume low SES kids are blanket behind or that these colleges offer no support.)
There’s an expression: where do you think the top performers go, when they just don’t get into a tippy top? (We’re talking finalists who don’t get the Yes.) Answer: all those other great schools out there.
My Sophmore just received recognition for a 4.0 along with a bunch of classmates from a good but not elite state university. I asked who else would be at the reception since its a 6 hour drive for me and a missed day of work.
“I know a handful of them , John is a triple math - physics - philosophy major, crazy smart. Mary (EE + Math) and Sam (pre-med + Math) are both of my suitemates, and Susan (pre-med + Math) is that person you know. Also Luke is a good friend… another Math+Science major.”
Every one of them has ivy level stats from high school but got denied (95+ Average 34+/1500+ ACT/SAT with lots of great ECs). All these kids can’t figure out why they didnt get in to at least Cornell when other people at their school did with similar or worse numbers.
Another story,
Last summer my kid had had an internship with about 20 others. The best internships went to kids from Yale, Columbia, Cornell, and UNC. Everyone had to do a presentation at the end. My kid received a note from the president saying they had the best presentation, so she still questions why she was rejected from the ivys. Maybe grad school?
@NoKillli - “Last summer my kid had had an internship with about 20 others. The best internships went to kids from Yale, Columbia, Cornell, and UNC. Everyone had to do a presentation at the end. My kid received a note from the president saying they had the best presentation, so she still questions why she was rejected from the ivys. Maybe grad school?”
Since the ivies use holistic admissions, many factors go in to what students they accept each year. Maybe these ivy students had better high school GPAs, SAT/ACT scores, ECs, impressive LOR, better essays, better spike (hook), etc. Hard to say but I think everyone here agrees that the majority of top HS students do not get in to an ivy even though they are near the top of their class. Sounds like your D is doing just fine without going to an ivy league school. Celebrate the success no matter where your kid goes to college.
I wish more people put this much thought into selecting a college major or into figuring out how to raise the ACT scores of students in the below 20 ACT group.
I think there are smart, very smart, and some in the clouds. My son managed an A in his 5th and last physics course, and knew he couldn’t compare to the group who earned A+. in grad school, he knew one of his roommates was likely among the 1or 2 students who had a real shot at an academic position. This young man has that extra intelligence as well as a love/drive for research. He is also a fun loving, athletic, good person.
@Much2learn If your comment is serious, the easiest way to raise an ACT score is to read the offbook, go online and print as many old test as you can find, and practice timed tests. You can do a couple of segments a week. Once you score them and see what you missed focus in on those areas. The biggest issue with the ACT is the timing. My son took it blind the first time, having no idea about the time considerations. By the 3rd time he took, his composite was up 6 points. No fancy prep required.
^I think you Much2learn’s point, @lastone03. Students in the below 20 ACT group often have issues that have put them into that group in the first place. Often complex, societal, financial, or otherwise issues. More than can be addressed by reading an offbook and practicing online tests.
The high school numbers were there (4.0uw /35ACT/800 SAT Math2/ 780 Physics). Our HS does not do well in ivy placements or top LACs outside of Cornell CALS. Last year’s SAL had had a 1580 and was US National Champ in an academic competion. He didnt get in anywhere except the State U.
I remember the first day the kid came home with the intern list and where they went to school and what their assignment was. It is clear the ivy kids got better assignments just based on their school’s pedegree.
@sylvan8798 I am fully aware of all of those issues, but it isn’t complex for everyone that can’t score a 20. People need to give some of these kids credit for being able to do it with some hard work. Having said that, you obviously can’t fix what hasn’t been taught without additional tutoring. That’s an indictment of the school they attend, not the test.
@NoKillli Ivies admissions are a casting call not an awards ceremony. There are a limited number of seats and an international pool of brilliant people.
I had 50+ on that list before remembering my prediction of 30-40. So I shortened it to 40.
I guess the overall point is that we have a great many selective schools to choose from to comprise (at least) all the reaches and low reaches on any kid’s list. And I didn’t even include public schools.
There is a lot of non-Ivy quality to consider when a kid is looking for reaches. (and actually, matches and safeties too. A lot of really good schools have admit rates above 25%.)
Another thing we could name this expanded list of desirable reach-range schools is:
The 25% Club
…but I’m partial to Gothics. It’s simpler, darker, older, more refined, more snooty. And because its creators are in on the joke, it drips sarcasm.
“Let’s agree we’re discussing exceptional people. Unhook the athletes and the kids of movie stars and the legacies, and you are left with people who function at a level beyond “great”. Your kids aren’t there. My kids aren’t there. Maybe that’s not a bad thing, as those folks often struggle with the non-academic aspects of life.”
Let’s focus on HYPS as the other ivies are not as difficult to get into, and there are non-ivies that are more prestigious than the other five. There’s very little, if any, difference between the kids that got into those schools, the ones on the waitlist an the ones that just missed the waitlist. And your implication that there are geniuses walking around these colleges who struggle with being social is a little off. Most of these kids are pretty social, not exactly Einstein or Miles Davis exploring their genius while being recluse. Maybe Chicago or Cal Tech or Berkeley would have future Nobel laureates walking around.
And adcoms make mistakes, a lot of them as they’re human, recall Harvard rescinding ten acceptances who posted questionable (and I’m being kind) matter. If you’re really good at your job you make 6 to 7 decisions right, so you have to consider that of every ten kids that get in, three are not the right decision.
Thelonius…I don’t disagree with you: there are amazing kids at any school. This topic is about a narrative that most here probably feel is inaccurate or unreasonable: To win the admissions game you have to get into an Ivy. It is inaccurate in that it is solely dependent on the individual. What’s best for the student? It’s much less inaccurate, or even possibly correct, when you aggregate the impact on those individuals into pools (say Freshman, Soph, etc.), and even moreso when you aggregate again into Universities, and finally into a group of schools (Ivy vs. NESCAC vs. Big 10).
Nobody knows the location where their child will become their best self. I assume that nobody would send their child to Harvard to become the unabomber, but that is always a possible outcome. Individuals need to focus on the college that will make them happy, not their parents or classmates or guidance counselors.
There will always be perceived winners and losers in the parental competition of college placement. Stanford and MIT have earned their place on the podium, as has the Ivy League over the past 100+ years.
It’s pointless and often inaccurate, but the narrative around the Ivy League doesn’t need to change. It’s human nature; accept it and move on.
It may never change for some families, but if kids could get the general sense that it is not important and then stop feeling the peer pressure, that would be good.
Maybe junior year class load should include “College and Career Planning” to help kids understand the reality involved, what they can do, what is pointless and what is realistic (acceptance and $ wise).
^^^HSs should definitely require a course on career planning including topics like trade schools, college, industries, likely paths, outcomes, etc. There is so much of this available today. School system could easily contract with a career coach company (They’s probably do it for free for publicity sake).
You would think that would be a core function of the GC office. Certainly didn’t happen in my kids’ schools.
And sometimes those losers are the kids. EVERY parent needs to read the second article. It is what kids are trying to tell us. And, no this isn’t just Ivies, but it more often than not exists at intense “elite or prestigious” schools. It’s really sad that these kids have no idea how to dial it back. It needs to change.
" And, no this isn’t just Ivies, but it more often than not exists at intense “elite or prestigious” schools. "
Do you have some data on this?
I am asking seriously because this is a very intense claim.
The article refers to social, more than academic pressures. Those exist everywhere, including virtually every high school on the planet. To imply it is systemic at a particular type of college without data to back that up is sensationalist and possibly dangerous.
It is unreasonable to expect thousands of kids who have excelled to gain entrance into competitive schools to suddenly “turn it down” in college. “you need to get a job” is the college pressure cooker.
We are experiencing this as a family now. We’ve literally been talking our soon-to-be grad into rejecting offers. The jobs are just that…jobs. The one bit of advice I’ve given my children on post college work is to do something you like. If you take a job at Goldman or Google for the prestige and money, you’d better resign yourself to either staying in that arena or taking a big step back (financially) if you want to switch paths. If you do what you love, you’ll be good enough at it to make a comfortable living (so my theory goes).
Penn also has had an unacceptable suicide rate the past decade or so. I think kids go from being the best and brightest to being average in a pool of very talented kids, and they question their abilities. Sure, they’re in the top 5% of the country educationally (generalization…not a Penn comment), but they only see their limitations. Their parents are struggling to find meaning and careers of their own in many cases…so the students worry they’ll be in that situation too.
@Postmodern I am not sure how you put this squarely on “social” pressures. This is a direct quote from the beginning of the article. It’s the pressure to be perfect at everything.
"But within a few weeks, I encountered the unpleasant reality beneath my school’s surface. The incessant competition. The endless work-filled days and tense, sleepless nights. The tremendous pressure to perform brilliantly in every capacity: academics, extracurricular activities, social life, physical fitness, and career. I felt like I was juggling bowling balls. But I couldn’t slow down, because no matter how well I did, it seemed the person next to me was doing better.
Then one night while my roommate and I sat in the common room bemoaning our crunched schedules and heavy workloads, she broke into tears. “I don’t know why they let me in,” she said. “I’m just not good enough.”
As for the “intense claim”, do a little research. Here is a starter…
It’s the dirty little secret that schools like to dust under the carpet. I spoke with a well known psychiatrist about this at one point. He claimed that we’ve all become uber goal oriented, never slowing down until our minds or bodies force us to. That’s a sad state. We need much more balance, and we need to let our kids know that it is perfectly fine to go relax.
