Applying to many Ivies shows that a student is after prestige over fit. They are such different environments. Finding fit in one or two plus other similar fit universities with excellent programs in desired major and then ranking for an EA/ED/RD plan does make sense for exceptional students.
Not everyone wants a LAC environment. Students interested in or possibly interested in a preprofessional degree need those options.
Don’t usually comment on this but those undervaluing all Ivy engineering degrees have not recently spent time in some of those labs, classrooms, adjacent hospital research facilities and talking with students. STEM educations have evolved since we parents were students. They need incredible communication skills and broader knowledge with complicated systems. Cornell just revamped their ME building, Penn has endless robotics and drone labs, the biggest hackaton in the US and cutting edge research for so many diseases. Why not spend 4 years immersed in a diverse student body. Guarenteed their core education will not suffer with so many endless opportunities.
The eclectic population of MIT, CMU, CalTech, Harvey Mudd…is not for every undergrad and Stanford is 3K miles from the east coast.
If a list of problems relating to colleges was compiled and ranked in order of importance, changing narrative around the Ivy League would be incredibly far down that list.
No question the Ivies are receiving vast numbers of apps from outside the Northeast. Maybe more kids in some areas look to regional colleges. But FL, IL, TX, CA and the PNW are producing large numbers.
Sure, sometimes in a thread, posters discourage. But just as often they encourage - and based on only a slice of the picture adcoms see. They ignore that they don’t see the app, understand the area competition, or institutional needs. And plenty is misunderstanding about standing out, balance, and essays.
This all misleads. And the rush grows. Add anecdotes, (“My kid got in and she didn’t xxx,”) and it’s a mess. People are blinded by stats and some fancy EC.
There is an entire group of students in the middle/upper-middle class for whom these schools would be full pay, but for whom their families could in no way justify paying $70k/year. According to this poster’s reasoning, none of those families have top students. Seems statistically unlikely.
Maybe the mere fact that there IS an effectively excluded group (is it growing?) might change the narrative.
I would submit that is is ALL regional. The NE does not have many/any high-ranked publics, by design/choice(?).
So the way to “change the narrative” is to invest heavily in SUNY, Rutgers, UMass, UConn, and Penn State (at least financially, since it is costly for instate), to help them climb the rankings.
“I have to go to an Ivy” is just a combination of ignorance and lazy thought. For anyone who wants to dig into what colleges are for, and what they do or do not do, there is a Mt, Everest of info out there, and tons of regs and old timers here who have been helpfully giving reality checks year after year. But much of it will go in one ear and out the other. If someone is dead set on wanting a Rolex because it is the “best watch,” they have already closed their mind off from a broader view.
^^^ I do own a couple so I am not at all anti-Rolex. But like college, the “best” watch always needs qualification. If accuracy is important, an ordinary quartz watch beats an automatic. If you don’t want to be bothered with an overhaul every five years or so, again, a cheap quartz is best. If you really want to impress, a Patek will do a better job. And so on, and so with colleges. Depends on what you want, after an informed search, not just picking off of the top of someone else’s list.
The Ivy League “narrative” is a thing for a tiny percentage of America’s students. All in all, it’s tempest in a tea cup. But if if worries you, go ahead, work to change it. Just know it isn’t even a blip on the radar of most kids, teachers or parents.
“I find it hard to believe kids or parents rather go to an Ivy League for CS or engineering degree rather than MIT or Stanford. Here in CA, only Harvard has a brand name pull equal to Stanford for overall programs and MIT for engineering. Just talking generally.”
I think that many students at that level with miultiple options are more focused on fit than brand name. They are also 18 and can be very opinionated, and often a bit over confident. About the third time the Harvard tour guide talked down to our D, Harvard went off the list. He answered each of her “Can Havard students …,?” questions with, “If you are lucky enough to get in to Harvard …”. She said to me, I’m not lucky and I don’t like being talked down to." She is a very “Show don’t tell type of kid, and not impressed by the name.” I tried hard but failed to get her to at least apply.
The term “little Ivies” has been in use for years but is not a formal designation. Here is a list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ivies That never annoyed me because I didn’t really see it as a comparison, and viewed it as a compliment in some ways, but I can see the point as outlined above.
Much2learn admissions departments really need to understand that tour guides play a huge role in the impression potential applicants have of a school. It’s absurd, but these are 17-18 year olds. A tour guide is often just some student doing work study and doesn’t reflect a school as a whole, but their personality holds sway with applicants for sure.
So many people forget that there are over 3000 colleges and universities in the US. That means that the top 300 are in the top 10% of colleges. How many people denigrate the schools that are out of the top 100. They look at anything other than the top schools are just as bad as a bottom failing junior college. I just want to scream sometimes.
There are wonderful educations to be had a school that is not in the top 50. Students also have no real appreciation for what $60,000 per year/$240,000 for 4 years is worth. Going to a slightly lower school (say 5% lower) with no debt can be life changing. So many opportunities can open up if someone young is not burdened with crushing debt, or worse yet, their parents.
Perhaps more importantly, more progress might be made if the “narrative” were changed in the minds of the millionaire and billionaire donors who give to schools which don’t need more money, rather than being big fish in small ponds and lifting up the lower tier schools with their $100M donations.
@Much2learn We visited Harvard campus on the way to visit a family friend near there during a cold winter with slushy snow on the streets. That was the end of any desire to apply to Harvard for my kid. However, Concord area was beautifully covered in snow. I gave up when he didn’t even want to get a Harvard t-shirt. He didn’t even apply to Cornell even though he had a slight advantage applying there because his dad went there because it’s cold there too. The coldest school he applied to was University of South Carolina Honors College. Two things he doesn’t like: really cold and windy weather and mosquitos because he’s a little bit more allergic to mosquito bites. lol
^ I wish I could like your post ten times @sylvan8798@bluebayou
I really noted how the Knights donated to UOregon. I hope more billionaires will follow suit.
As a souvenir, you know, to remember a nice trip to Walden’s Pond and Condord area where the author of Little Women lived. That was the best part for us. Passed by where John F. Kennedy used to live when he was young.
My first was turned off by her H visit, too. It was the hordes of kids pressing their interest. I wasn’t there, so that’s the feedback, not my reaction.
No t shirts here til her results were in and the choice made. Ya know, I’m sure there are Concord t shirts.