How do you put a price tag on a name and the whole "college experience"?

Parents Forum
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<p>My son is interested in an OOS school, top 15 Engineering school with Div 1 sports and approx 28k students that will cost about $37.5k/year. He received no aid other than Stafford loans. Also looking at state school that has up and coming Engineering program with Div 3 sports and approx 10k students. The state school offered $15k/year merit which would bring the cost down to about $10k/ year. The OOS school's name speaks for itself and has a huge alumni network. The state school didn't even have an engineering program until they received a $100 million endowment from someone in the 90's with the stipulation that they had to develop a top engineering program. That being said, the program is on the rise with great job and grad school placement %'s. </p>

<p>I have told my son we will pay for the state school but if he goes to the OOS school, he will have to take on about $50k of debt. I have laid out the costs of taking on debt. Most kids probably don't comprehend what a $500+ monthly payment can do to them after graduation but he is at least concerned about it. He still wants to take another look at the OOS School at their Accepted Students day. I am the product of a state school and started my career sitting next to Duke and Notre Dame grads who were in no better position than me. The one connection that they did have to their schools that I did not was the rooting interest in their school's sports programs. That may not be important in the whole scheme of things but there is something to be said for sitting in a packed stadium or arena watching D1 sports.</p>

<p>My opinion is to go the state school route but my son is struggling with the decision. He can graduate debt free and could stil go to a "big name" grad school. How do you put a price tag on the name of a school and the supposedly better "college experience" he will have at the OOS school? Thoughts please.</p>

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<p>I feel your pain! A young person of 17 or 18 can not possibly comprehend what the financial ramifications are of significant debt at a young age. They are being asked to make very adult decisions at a young age without the tools to fully realize what’s involved.
There is definitely a want versus need consideration. Very few of us want to deny our children a perceived opportunity. I hate it! Our family is dealing with a very similar discussion right now.</p>

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<p>In my mind, I pictured UMBC (but it’s Div I) versus GA Tech. That’s a tough one. I’d be leaning toward the “Ga Tech” school myself if I were your son.</p>

<p>But…I see your point.</p>

<p>I think it’s great you broke down the student loan into monthly payments, making the impact more comprehensible. Can you take it a step further, if you haven’t already, and take the median salary of new grads in his intended major and the lowest paying major, break that down into monthly income, take out for taxes and stuff, retirement, parking, and health insurance. Show him the remainder and then take out $500. </p>

<p>You can take it even further. Take out rent, utilities (don’t forget that internet access), car insurance, car maintenance. Now the rest is for food and fun.</p>

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<p>From the in-state description, it is clear the school is Rowan. I’m from NJ as well, and an licensed PE too (NJIT grad). </p>

<p>Several things that I think you are oversimplifying now, that have some immediate and future consideration:</p>

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<li><p>What discipline is he interested in? Ultimate career goal?</p></li>
<li><p>Where does he want to live as an adult? Rowan has developed a very good reputation regionally, but in other parts of the country, potential employers and co-workers will be asking “You went to school where?” I get that to a certain extent even with NJIT, which has much more national press as a value school than Rowan.</p></li>
<li><p>With the engineering school, Rowan really is two colleges sharing the same campus. While engineering is quite selective for it’s seats and can be, as it IMHO offers the best university experience compared to the other in-state engineering schools (NJIT in Newark and Rutgers where as an undergrad you ride the bus around New Brunswick hours each day getting to classes), the balance of the school is the “Glassboro State College” it once was, with some significant differences in academic achievement and goals. That dichotomy is always present in engineering compared to different majors, but at a small school like Rowan it will be magnified.</p></li>
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<p>My son is also a HS Senior, college class of 2018, and we visited Rowan as part of their Engineering Day last September, and he chose not to apply. He is an ME major, wants to work in an automotive field or motorsports, picked up on many of the school’s in loco parentis rules, and did not like the campus feel as compared to other places. While the education would have been OK, the other intangibles that add into the complete experience weren’t there, nor would he be able to get his preferred internship and employment opportunities.</p>

<p>His preference was to go to a southeast D1 school with a strong FSAE Formula program. He was accepted at several and has chosen one, which should he make it through allow the career goal to easily be attained. It is about $10k more a year, but $40,000 over 40+ years of doing exactly what you want to do working is not a high price tag. </p>

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<p>It would be helpful to know the colleges in question. I don’t know anything about Rowan (if that is the in-state), but I thought of Georgia Tech or Virginia Tech as the OOS option. While conventional wisdom is to avoid debt as much as possible, I would probably choose the OOS option in this case. 50k in debt is a lot, but it’s not 100k. You’re talking about 20k more than the commonly borrowed Stafford limits for an engineering degree with typically good starting salaries. How likely is it that your S won’t change majors and will be successful in an undergraduate engineering program? </p>

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<p>Why? Because you can’t afford to and did not plan to contribute more and that was clear upfront, or because now the choices are clear you want to force him to go to the school of your choice using the power of the purse? From your post, it <em>seems</em> like the latter. If the monetary situation was clear from the get go, I apologize.</p>

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<p>If the state school is VA or GA Tech, or UMCP, or one of the outstanding flagships, sure. If it is an unknown, lower tier state school–or a similar private, for that matter–not so much, perhaps?</p>

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<p>That is something that I, personally, do not value in the slightest and would not pay one dime for. But to each his own.</p>

<p>Showing your son what $500/mo really means is a good idea. How likely is it that he will actually remain with and succeed at the engineering major?</p>

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<p>He, of course, can’t borrow as much as $50K on his own. You or another adult will have to cosign. If I look at the numbers correctly, you are willing to pay more than the cost of the state school (possibly up to what the state school would cost without merit)? </p>

<p>If he is pretty certain to stay with engineering or something like Computer Science, I say let him make the choice and help him take the loans out if he wants to. My answer would be completely different for a major with lower salary prospects, though. As an engineering student, he should be able to get decent paying summer internships after sophomore year, so that could reduce the loans by a bit.</p>

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<p>Engineering is a tough major. Transitioning to college is a tough go. Lots of things go wrong, emotions, mood disorders, all those mental demons raise their ugly heads. Having the kid like the school is a big plus. Very easy to throw in the towel when thing go wrong, and things do go wrong. The course of study engineering students have to take is difficult and a lot of kids don’t make the cut. Take a look at the stats for those who change majors for whatever reason. Being an engineering major at Tech name schools,especially when it’s what you want, gives it a bit of a boost due to pack mentality that most of us, especially young people are prone to.</p>

<p>If a family truly can’t afford it. If it’s a kid on these boards crying about parents not paying, I give them the old “chin up” lecture. But YOU are the parent asking, and as a fellow parent, I say, if you can afford, it, do it. He isn’t likely to be able to borrow $50K face amount in loans. $27K will be his limit, which will be close to the $35K mark by the time he starts paying it back, due to the effects of interest. You do realize costs go up each year too. So if you can meet him half way, that, IMO is a good solution.</p>

<p>And, yes, I’ve walked the walk,and am doing so as I write. In State U–$20K when my son was applying. OOS U --Twice that. His first choice school was OOS U, so we bit the bullet and are paying. But actually waht we had done was tell him up front that $35K a year was what we could pay, one way or the other through hitting savings, budgeting and possibly borrowing. Anything over that, he had to pay. So he contributes anything over that amount to his college expense. That he go offers of free tuiton elsewhere, that he could go to in state U for half, did not enter the picture. If he could make it work at $35K from us, that was fine. ANd he was fine with that. The full price privates went off the table immediately. We told him we’d give him any of the $35K not used, and he said half of the unused would be fairer, but that he wanted it all for school because he had a clear first choice that needed every penny of it. But had he commuted to local college that gave him full tuition, we had offered him $140K over 4 years to do this. But it was worth it instead for him to come up with the $5K or so a year and go for the same experience you son wants–the spirit, sports teams, rah rah, fun, etc. </p>

<p>Half way through, it did occur to him that the commuting would not have been such a terrible thing as he found out a lot of peers were doing this and were enjoying life just fine But he feels he got himself a lifetime experience going away, hours away to name college of choice, something he may not have such a choice to do, and it’s worth it to him.</p>

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<p>I think the networking thing has value, but not as much as it used to. At the same time the haves and have nots are getting farther apart, the world is also getting flatter. My kid goes to the ultimate (supposedly) network name valued school and plays D1 sport and does well academically and is trying to get an internship for the summer. Kid calls and talks to tons of alumni and they all take the call and they all are pleasant and helpful and willing to meet for coffee, but they also say that the name doesn’t really count for much as they thought it would now that they’re out for 5-10 years. It’s a minor “hook” at best. It isn’t a ticket to anything. We pay full freight. We passed on several partial athletic scholarships (Stanford among them) and academic (National Merit Finalist) scholarships. We are financially fortunate, but the cost or difference in costs are not a drop in the bucket. Kid is very happy and doing well so we console ourselves with that, but says would do it differently if had to do it over. It was basically kid’s decision at the time, but we totally supported it – no quarrel from us. Bottom line for us: there are lots of valid reasons to pick one school over another, but I’d weigh the value of the name and network more lightly than several other variables. Good luck</p>

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<p>I’m usually the one shouting ‘no loans’ especially when an education can be had for free (or near free), but I do think the atmosphere is important, the ‘college experience’ is important IF you can afford it. With engineers (and a few other majors) it isn’t the same as with others. Engineering students can get great jobs in the summer and pay for a good part of their education as they go along. There may be very good scholarships along the way. He could get a job with a company that pays some of his tuition.</p>

<p>I don’t know the schools, but I’m leaning toward the D-1 with the understanding by your son that he needs to get to work. Now. He needs to work all summer, and some of that work might be attempting to get some financial aid from the big school. No doesn’t always mean no.</p>

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<p>Doubtful: our D has the opportunity to be a 3 rd generation student to my alma mater. Good School, very nice education, ut certainly not a door opener. The school name and people I met in school and see at alumni events haven’t done anything for me in my 25 + year career.</p>

<p>Who you meet in school and could possibly network with in the future is still important. I wish I knew how important when I was your kids age.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>Did you support him applying to this OOS school?</p>

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<p>Schools are Rowan and Va Tech. Will he remain and succeed with Engineering? I hope so but how many 18 year olds really know what they want to do?</p>

<p>Did I support application to OOS? I told him to apply where he wanted but without merit money, anything OOS was going to be a stretch.</p>

<p>I am not forcing him to go to any school and not using power of the purse, just pointing out real world situation to him. We are visiting Va Tech accepted student day tomorrow so will make a decision after that.</p>

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<p>Well, there are a lot of strong options at VT that are NOT engineering, and it sounds as if that is not the case at Rowan, so to me that would be a major factor.</p>

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<p>In that case he knew what he was getting in to, and you have definitely done your best to give him the info he needs to make the decision. Good luck. Sometimes it is an easy call, but not in this case.</p>

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<p>My kids have found that the “network” that helps them find jobs and internships are students just a year or two older than they are. I think social media has changed this picture a lot – kids are in closer touch with other students who have recently graduated. D1 works in a post-college job she loves because a friend from college who was a couple of years older posted on Facebook that her company was hiring. D1 applied, got a job, and has extended the same helping hand to a few younger students from her college. D2 just wrangled a summer research position on campus right after her freshman year, and I think she got it mostly because an older student friend recommended her to the prof (it certainly wasn’t on the strength of her interviewing skills or her grades :frowning: ). I think the students on D2’s campus continue this network back to the kids they know on campus with tips about internships and jobs.</p>

<p>I don’t think “cold calls” to alumni ever did much good, even from top schools. Now what top schools do get is recruiters coming into the career office to interview students from more prestigious companies.</p>

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<p>“How do you put a price tag on the name of a school and the supposedly better “college experience” he will have at the OOS school?”</p>

<p>Every single day, we put price tags on experiences - a fantastic dinner made by an award-winning chef, vacations, time with family, a safer car versus a less expensive one. College is no different: it comes with a cost that you do not pay if it’s unaffordable, no matter how awesomely amazing it is. </p>

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<p>Tell your son that for $500 a month or $6000 a year in payments, he can plan to go to two of these every year (and bring a friend) the Super Bowl, the Final Four and the NCAA football championship practically, anywhere in the country.</p>

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<p>A few years ago, nursing grads, especially those with BSNs, we’re getting signing bonuses and great salaries. Then, things changed. Rather quickly, I might add. Students in the pipeline found themselves scrambling for jobs just like everybody else and those signing bonuses disappeared. </p>

<p>I’m really leery of the “great paying job as soon as the engineering student graduates!” mindset. It can all change so quickly. 50k is debt is probably doable for an engineering major (assuming, as others have said, he sticks with it). Let me just ask this, is there any other incentive that goes with spending less on undergrad? Money for grad school? A car? Semester abroad? </p>

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<p>Magpie: You must be reading my mail. Your background and logic and presentation were EXACTLY the same as mine.</p>

<p>NJ resident. Son had same choices. VT, Cornell, Penn State UP, Lehigh, Rowan were the short-listers. He wanted Civil Engineering. When he was in HS, soccer was also part of the equation (more him than me), so there were additional engineering schools on the long list. He was top five in his class, sandwiched between two Harvard attendees and another who went to Bucknell.</p>

<p>We know many grads from all those schools. VT alumni loyalty is 2nd to none; right there with PSU and ND, in my opinion. Son didn’t like city schools, for whatever reason, and he didn’t want to go to a place that was smaller than his large high school.</p>

<p>VT was the initial frontrunner, primarily due to the enthusiasm of family friends who went there and still sported the VT regalia. But the tide turned, I think, when we were at a soccer tourney in Northern Virginia. I asked him if he wanted to drive down to VT. He said, “How far?” I said, “We’re halfway there.” He replied, “Let’s go home.”</p>

<p>As it turns out, despite the fact that he loves sports, being a “rooter” was not as important for him as to be a “do-er”. And it was 2008, the height of the downturn. When we got home, there was a letter from Rowan offering a 4-year ride for tuition and housing. He stopped looking.</p>

<p>He dropped varsity soccer to play intercollegiate “club” ball, so he could do other things and other sports that he wanted to do while in college. He still attended D1 football/basketball games with friends/relatives who went to those schools. During one summer, instead of an internship, he was a survey assistant/rodman with the Army Corps and a NC firm on the Atlantic City beach replenishment program, just before Sandy. He’s in his 2nd year with a North Jersey firm doing what he wanted to do. Working with grads from all those schools and others. Doesn’t feel as if they know any more than him, and some know less.</p>

<p>He’s very happy. Close enough, yet far enough. No regrets.</p>

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<p>If you are not able to pay, I don’t think it is worth the debt.</p>

<p>For me, if it is the choice between a fantastic school and an okay school, I would pay the full 60k per year. It would have to be a school with great academics and fit; I would not pay for a school that has posh dorms, best Greek life, cool factor, etc.</p>