<p>Is it possible (in general) to do good at a large state school? </p>
<p>For example, at University of Washington-Seattle, there are probably >30,000 people, which makes the class sizes extremely large. This means that it is harder (and maybe not even possible) to get to know the professor, which is paramount for med schools. In addition, many people (such as me) need help from the professors to understand something, which won't be possible at a large state school. If they can't understand what vector is and can't get help from the professor, how are they going to pass physics, and later on, tougher courses such as organic chemistry (please dont take this seriously, its an exaggeration to show a point)? </p>
<p>So the point of this post is to ask if anyone can give insight that went to a large state school (or anyone in general perhaps) that can explain why they think they were able to successfully matriculate, or why they failed so that those that go to large schools, like me probably, know what to do to suceed.</p>
While I agree it's important (for letter of recommendation purposes), "paramount" is stronger than I'd want to put it.</p>
<p>One of the big problems you're going to have is advising down the line. So make sure to get your applications in early -- for some reason, this is a very common mistake that public-schoolers make -- no matter what anybody else tells you. Apply broadly -- another mistake that public schoolers seem to make disproportionately.</p>
<p>btw, we're assuming that one is not in the honors program at the school for whatever reason (can't get in, not interested, scared of the competition, etc)</p>
<p>im attend UW right now and getting time with the professor of a large classroom is not as hard as it seems, most students here never go to the professor's office hours. also, there are also a ton of TAs and study sessions here at UW that are very helpful when it comes to getting help. i'd say the one of the best aspects of large state universities like UW is the opportunities for research. if you want to do research you will most definately get a chance. furthermore, the professor you will be working with will definately write you a letter... hopefully, ;)</p>
<p>i like big schools more because you have more freedom. There are many ways to get to know a prof. you have to take smaller classes (probably upper divs) and go to OH. Also, classes are all doable as long as you work hard. you'll probably not get things instantaneously. there is also a lot of free tutoring available.</p>
<p>
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In addition, many people (such as me) need help from the professors to understand something, which won't be possible at a large state school. If they can't understand what vector is and can't get help from the professor, how are they going to pass physics, and later on, tougher courses such as organic chemistry (please dont take this seriously, its an exaggeration to show a point)?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, frankly, the help you might get from profs is usually not that helpful. That's because many profs simply don't want to spend time talking about what they consider to be trivially simple topics. Let's face it. If you're a world-renowned physics prof, you don't want to be spending time talking about simple vectors. For example, I know one guy who was taking electricity/magnetism, but he had never taken multivariable calculus, so he didn't know how to calculate surface and line integrals. It's not his fault, as multivariable calculus was not a prereq for the class. So when he went to OH looking for help in calculating the integrals, instead of telling him how to do it, the prof simply berated him for not knowing 'simple' math and advised him to drop the class. What kind of help is that? As it turns out, the student taught himself the multivariable calculus he needed through those Schaum's Outline practice books and ended up getting an A- in the class, no thanks to the prof. </p>
<p>You will probably get more useful help from TA's or from your college's tutoring services. I would not place too much stock on getting help from profs.</p>
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Well, frankly, the help you might get from profs is usually not that helpful. That's because many profs simply don't want to spend time talking about what they consider to be trivially simple topics.
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I found this advice to be contrary to my personal experience. This may simply reflect a difference in where we went to school. I always found professors to be very engaged with their students, always interested in making sure we performed well, and always looking forward to any students who might drop by.</p>
<p>I think office hours advice is a highly variable thing, even dependent on when you happen to catch the same prof and what their day has entailed...but for the most part, my profs were more like BDM's, especially b/c as josh said, very few students ever go to a prof's office hours.</p>
<p>As also already stated, TA's, lab instructors and so on are all available. My school also set up Supplemental Instruction courses in which an older student who had taken the class and received an A, would get paid to attend that class and then give weekly review sessions during the semester. My school also had a dedicated Chemistry Resource Center (among other resource centers for math, writing, biology, so on), staffed by TA's, grad students, undergrad volunteers and undergrad paid staff there to help out. </p>
<p>Success at a state school is going to take a little more effort, but certainly not a barrier of any sort. Some things are small, like scheduling an appointment with the pre-med advisers 3-4 weeks in advance, b/c otherwise you won't be able to get in before signing up for classes. Some things are bigger like finding research opportunities. But the main thing is realizing that you might have to find a little bit out on your own. Like if you want interview practice that you have to go to Career Services, or if you need help on your personal statement knowing that there is a writing assistance center on campus. </p>
<p>However, the thing to remember is that small schools don't always mean that everything is easier. For example my large state school had an extremely, extremely successful program for encouraging undergraduate research, that was open to freshmen. The program was two years in length, and provided money for both years. First year was spent helping a prof with their research activities, and the second involved the student conducting their own individual research with the guidance and mentoring of the same prof. I'm sure that other schools (large and small) have similar programs, but there probably aren't that many out there.</p>
<p>There are pros and cons of big school versus smaller school. Here are some I have observed with my own children, myself and husband, and children's friends:
Large school-
Pros: -
-easier scheduling of classes as far as more sections offered
-In many cases it seems that it is easier to maintain a higher gpa
-more majors available
Cons:
-harder to form relationships with professors
-if large lecture style not "your thing", introductory courses may be more difficult
-harder to find a mentor for research</p>
<p>Smaller school
Pros:
-Small classes allow for discussion and questions
-Easier to form relationships with professors
-Easier to acquire personal recs</p>
<p>Cons:
-Scheduling of courses more difficult (ie particular chem or bio only offered one semester a year)
-Fewer opportunities for EC's</p>
<p>I'm sure there are many more differences, but those are some that come immediately to mind.</p>
<p>By reputation, state schools tend to grade harder.</p>
<p>Also, I disagree STRONGLY about the class-scheduling difficulty. State schools -- at least, the prestigious ones in my area -- are notorious for having huge proportions of their student bodies unable to graduate in four years because they were unable to enroll in the classes they needed.</p>
<p>The programs BRM is describing are really, really wonderful resources, by the way. They sound amazing, and just go to show that every principle has its screaming exceptions.</p>
<p>People say it's harder to make relationships with professors, but I really disagree. If you are the type of person who is really motivated to learn, you'll go to your professor's office hours and ask good questions, and that will make enough of an impression. If you're the kind of student who wants to sit in the back of the class and not do your homework, well no, your professor isn't going to know who you are at a large state school.</p>
<p>At OSU, at least, research opportunities are open to all grade levels, though there are fewer options for freshmen because we haven't taken upper-level courses yet.</p>
<p>TAs are in charge of explaining the simpler concepts so you don't fall behind, while most professors (especially in upper-division or honors sections, which you should take if possible) are more than happy to explain more difficult subjects and help you advance your level of understanding.</p>
<p>Plus, larger schools have more leadership opportunities. At OSU, there are over 50,000 students on the main campus alone, and 800 student organizations. You can be involved in whatever you like. There are at least 5 different pre-med groups, so it's not like you're forced to do the only "health-related" thing on campus - you can be involved in dozens of research studies, volunteer opportunities, and other groups without having to settle for the only leadership opportunity out there.</p>
<p>"If you're smart enough and work hard enough, you can succeed no matter what kind of school you get into." In your case, if you are proactive, ask good questions, come across as intelligent, etc., you can get to know your professors just fine.</p>
<p>Similarly:
"If you lose interest in school and make that obvious, you won't get into a great med school no matter where you did undergrad." Also true.</p>
<p>But:
For those students who are bright but not brilliant, reasonably hardworking, and well-rounded rather than spectacular, sometimes going to a small school can be important. Where professors go out of their way to get to know you. Where advising appointments are available on a walk-in basis. Where research opportunities don't have to be sought out.</p>
<p>You can always find everything you need, no matter where you go. And you can always squander all the resources in the world, no matter where you go. But sometimes, for the kids in between, a school that takes care of you and looks out for you is very important.</p>
<p>I was judging the class scheduling problem by a couple personal experiences. For instance, son had to drop a chem class due to a surgery (at a smaller private school) and the class is not even offered again until next fall. D. is at a very small (around 1000 students) and some classes are only offered once a year, one section and some only every other year.</p>
<p>As far as the gpa, the students that we know who attend state schools are able to achieve 4.0 gpa's with much, much less study/work time than son does at his school where a 4.0 is almost unheard of.</p>
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the class is not even offered again until next fall.
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But this is a much smaller problem then classes always being full and often being unable to register.</p>
<p>And specific privates/publics may vary. On balance, publics are generally considered to have harsher curves. This does not control for student quality, however.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was judging the class scheduling problem by a couple personal experiences. For instance, son had to drop a chem class due to a surgery (at a smaller private school) and the class is not even offered again until next fall. D. is at a very small (around 1000 students) and some classes are only offered once a year, one section and some only every other year.
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</p>
<p>
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But this is a much smaller problem then classes always being full and often being unable to register.
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</p>
<p>Yeah, well, the worst thing I have seen is when a large public school only offers a class only once a year, or once every 2 years, and you STILL can't get into it because lots of other students wanted it, hence tossing you onto the waitlist from which you never get into the clas. That's the worst of both worlds. Nor is it hypothetical. I have seen it happen to some people.</p>
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Because they have worse students. The tougher curve makes a 3.6 from a state school and a 3.6 from Harvard semi-comparable.
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</p>
<p>I agree. But that of course begs the question of why do public schools have to have worse students, at least, at the undergraduate level. For example, I doubt there is little difference in quality between the PhD students at Berkeley and at Harvard, yet Berkeley's PhD programs are "public" in the sense that they receive state funding and use resources that are owned by the state. </p>
<p>And the only consistent answer that I know of is simple politics. The public demands that public schools offer undergraduate programs that are relatively easier to get in. But in order to enforce quality, the schools respond by making the grading harsher, therefore graduating fewer students, such that the end product bachelor's degree is still of high quality. If these schools offered easier admission AND high grade curves, the value of the degree would plummet. You can't get something for nothing. </p>
<p>However, I do find it interesting that the public would clamor for greater undergraduate 'access', but don't seem to clamor for greater PhD 'access'. But I guess that's just the nature of democratic politics - that it serves best as a mechanism to provide services to large constituencies, but not small ones.</p>