Hi everyone:
I am a freshman at the University of Michigan (Out-of-state, paying nearly full tuition, but room/board will be partially/fully covered over the next three years), and I am interested in Law School. I have heard terrible things about financing for Law School. My family needs to send two more siblings to college (undergrad, and maybe even professional school afterwards), so I was wondering if Law School would even be financially feasible for me.
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How generous is financial aid at T14 Schools, especially compared to their undegrraduate programs?
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How does loan repayment work (I heard Law School Financial aid is much more loan-based than grant-based)?
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An unrelated question- to have good chances at admission, do I need to know what kind of Lawyer I want to be (Patent, International Law, Criminal Defense, Civil Rights, etc.), or is it common to decide that once you are in Law School?
Thanks!
@HappyAlumnus : I think John Keker of San Francisco (and many others) would disagree with you. Oh, you mean defending people who don’t have money? Right, because nobody from a T14 school ever goes to work for a federal public defender’s office. Trial experience would be so useless. (I hope you can ascertain the sarcastic parts.)
@AboutTheSame, almost nobody from a top-tier law school does criminal defense.
Is a public defender’s job criminal DEFENSE? No. I’ve had friends from my top-3 law school work there, and I’ve followed them through their careers: none subsequently did criminal defense work.
Does my statement mean that NOBODY from a top-tier law school does criminal defense? No.
Disagree with me all you want, but please actually read my statement and respond to my statement. Don’t make up something else that I didn’t say and argue against it; that’s called a “straw man argument”.
OP, be prepared to add about $150,000 to your undergraduate debt. If you make it into Big Law those debt payments along with accrued interest will take a big chunk out of your salary.
@AboutTheSame, TomSrOfBoston’s post shows why few people from top-tier law schools do criminal defense work. With that kind of education expense vs. large corporate law firms that pay $160,000/year starting salaries, it’s no wonder.
Ok, maybe I’m missing something, but for the sake of clarity, the only thing a Federal public defender(or a state/local public defender) does is criminal defense work.
http://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/defender-services
So I’m puzzled how someone could work as a public defender and not do criminal work. Almost by definition all a public defender does is criminal defense.
@HappyAlumnus : You said “Is a public defender’s job criminal DEFENSE? No.” That is one of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen on this site. As @crankyoldman pointed out (how did I ever miss out on that user name?), that is the DEFINITION of a public defender (state or federal). Now, if you want to concentrate on the fact that many do not REMAIN in that field … fine, but that was not the gist of your initial statement – and trying to hedge on the difference between “nobody” and “almost nobody” does not impress me. Many very successful attorneys started out doing criminal defense work (primarily in the public sector) to get the trial experience that they would not get as associates pushing paper in private law firms. The burden of paying for law school is admittedly a disincentive, but it is with respect to any type of public service. That has not dissuaded some of us.
Oops, I meant district attorney’s office. That is prosecution.
NODBOY from my year in law school went to the public defender’s office. Nor have I ever heard of anyone from my law school going to one. There maybe someone at some point who did, but that is consistent with my statement that “almost” nobody does that.
Some people have gone to the DA’s office. Those jobs are difficult to get, and I’ve had a few classmates and fellow alumni who have gone to big-city DA’s offices. They certainly didn’t stay in the field, though; they went to other lines of business eventually.
Why in the world would anyone pay $50k+/year in tuition and fees at a school like Columbia and have nearly unlimited options at firms paying $160k/year but choose to go into a practice (criminal defense) that at least in the beginning will generate annual salary that is lower than the annual tuition/fee payments? If someone is smart enough to get into somewhere like Columbia, the person has enough sense not to make a poor decision like that.
I’ll repeat and then shut up: “Many very successful attorneys started out doing criminal defense work (primarily in the public sector) to get the trial experience that they would not get as associates pushing paper in private law firms.”
It’s a choice.
I don’t know where you went or what type of law you ended up practicing, but obviously our experiences (and the lessons we have drawn from them) are very different.
I hope at least some of this is helpful to OP. I fear we went a bit offtrack.
Merit aid is (almost) all about two numbers: GPA+LSAT, so get as man A’s as you can. All but the top few offer merit aid, but that requires strong numbers, and a willingness to attend a lower ranked school at lesser cost. For example, numbers good enough for admission to Columbia or NYU (full pay) should garner significant free cash as the lower T14.
@AboutTheSame, those lawyers who started off doing criminal defense work did not go to top (top 10 or so) law schools.
I graduated from Harvard and none of my classmates have done, or do, criminal defense work.
OP, I recall that Duke is very generous with merit aid.
I love it when people make absolute statements that are flat out wrong.
@HappyAlumnus says “those lawyers who started off doing criminal defense work did not go to top (top 10 or so) law schools.”
Yale not good enough for you?
http://www.law360.com/articles/694295/trial-ace-keker-van-nest-s-john-keker
@AboutTheSame, you said that you’d “shut up” but you keep posting.
Again, the fact that one guy went to Yale and does white collar criminal defense is not inconsistent with my statement that “almost” nobody from top-tier law schools do that.
Further, white collar criminal defense is certainly not run-of-the-mill criminal defense (defending murderers and the like).
Finally, you’re flat wrong. I stated that “those lawyers who started off doing criminal defense work did not go to top…law schools”. John Keker did not start off doing criminal defense work. He started off as a Supreme Court clerk. Look at his website. So his story is not inconsistent at all with my statements.
How many times do I have to repeat myself, and why don’t you read or keep your own promises? And yes, it’s great that you “love it when people make absolute statements that are flat out wrong”, as you continue to make those types of statements.
@yikesyikesyikes , you ask about financial aid at T14 schools. All of the T14 schools except Harvard, Stanford, and Yale award merit aid to a varying extent. All law schools divulge their GPA/LSAT medians, and you’ll have to be above those medians to be considered for merit scholarships. So at Columbia and Chicago, merit aid is harder to come by than at Cornell or Georgetown. Each law school’s website will give you a better idea of how much scholarship aid is available; you can also glean an idea of what kinds of scholarships accompany specific LSAT/GPA scores by reading top-law-schools and lawschoolnumbers.
Some law schools, even those in the T14, offer full tuition scholarships and living stipends to their top applicants. It’s important to choose wisely, because an applicant who qualifies for T14 schools could probably find a full-tuition scholarship/stipend at lesser-ranked schools. That’s when you have to take a close look at the offer, the school’s hiring numbers, where you want to live and what kind of law you want to practice.
You may be able to find a paid law-related position between your 1L and 2L years, and you should certainly seek one through your law school’s on-campus program for after your 2L summer. If you get a summer associate position as a 2L, you may earn up to $30,000 in those 10 weeks, which can take a bite out of your expenses even after taxes. That’s how most young BigLaw associates are hired for positions after law school.
You’re a few years out from this, but some negotiating goes on with schools where you’re above their medians and they’ve made merit offers. My d was able to turn her initial half-tuition offer from UVA into a more generous scholarship by contacting them after all her admits were in. She had full-tuition offers at comparable schools, stipends at Northwestern and a school just out of the T14, and acceptances at higher-ranked schools, including a T3 school.
For what it’s worth, jobs with the Federal Public Defender offices are very difficult to get these days and there is a substantial cohort of students at T14 (and T6 and T3) schools who want them. With LRAP programs (loan repayment) available at many of these schools, going into public sector work on the defense side is a popular option for law students who are headed for public interest work. I know this because my D is a 3L at U of C, my S went to HLS, and they are friends with students who are taking or have have recently taken that path.