My daughter is a senior and has been fortunate enough to be accepted to several music schools in her chosen field of Music Education (voice). We are now faced with a difficult decision. She has been accepted to Lawrence University’s 5 year double degree program (planning on studying computer science as well) and University of Michigan SMTD. She was not accepted to the LSA school separately but has been assured (by the university) that she is free to register for LSA classes and complete a major or a minor in Comp sci if she desires-though it will surely take more than 4 years. These 2 are currently her top 2 choices.
In many ways Lawrence is perfect for her- given its small size, attentive and low key atmosphere and ample support for students wishing to double degree. Plus my daughter can be weak in terms of executive functioning and I think they are more supportive academically there.
However, it is awfully hard to turn down an offer from a U of M caliber program. I know that U of M SMTD will be a “smaller school” experience than attending the university at large, but I do wonder if there will be as much academic support as well as academic counseling for someone attempting to double major or minor out of the school. (I myself graduated from U of M and I can tell you that the LSA school is pretty much sink or swim). Furthermore, I worry that music education majors at U of M may be second class citizens to the vocal performance majors in terms of access to faculty and participation in the top level choirs. So I guess I am asking 2 questions.
How crazy is is to turn down a top tier music school in favor of a less prestigious (though from what I understand, well regarded) one?
Does anyone have experience at the U of M or Lawrence in Music Education who might be able to add some information to help her make this decision.
I would say Lawrence has an excellent reputation musically and there is less prestige difference than you seem to think! You say Lawrence seems perfect for her. If she agrees, she is likely to do better there and that is more important than struggling at a place that seems more prestigious!
Opportunities after graduation mainly, though the larger and more prestigious program may also have an advantage in terms of facilities and the number and possibly quality of the faculty (though I know that does not always correlate ie higher profile does not equal better teacher). Everything else is sort of a mixed bag: a program like Michigan may have more performance and other opportunities but the competition to participate in those may be more intense)
Prestige is an interesting topic. Look at the nearby “Brown vs UNT” thread, which is also sort of a prestige topic. I have only seen little glimpses of prestige myself. I graduated from Purdue for engineering, so it is known that the odds are that you are decent. While a freind graduated from another school where some “slacking” was known to occur. But he personally did not slack and you could tell by talking to him, so he carried his own prestige. I don’t know if that is the nature of the prestige, or if there are other levels of prestige, such as “even if you slacked off there, the name will help you out”.
I think there are public schools that prefer to recruit out of certain colleges because they “know what they are getting”, so that might be a sort of prestige that can matter.
Is your D planning a career as a high school music teacher, Professor, or something else? I think this is an important part of the equation. “Connections”, in this case, may be more important than prestige. As @GoForth says, schools often have a reputation for turning out a particular level of graduate, but this is usually only helpful as a foot in the door. My D looked at many levels of programs, in terms of prestige, and liked several a whole lot! For a performer, audition is always going to be king; I would lean towards choosing the place you think she will fit, grow and thrive best! Opportunity is important, however, so if you have evidence that school A or B can offer opportunities the other cannot, that may be worth considering. Just to play devil’s advocate, I will also say that in our experience, for people who know about these things, when we, or D, mentions she is a VP major at Oberlin, we have been known to get “OOOH”s, “AHHH”s, and a few high fives (lol!). This is for performance, though! It can definitely be enough to open doors sometimes…
I agree with @GoForth . Prestige is largely subjective. Much time and energy is spent ranking schools in certain publications, and even more time is spent debating the merits of the rankings! I don’t want to start that debate here, and only suggest the following exercise to support my gut reaction that the two schools are pretty similar in quality: On Niche.com, one can look at music school rankings. Number 1 is Curtis, Michigan is 13 (above Oberlin at 14), Lawrence is 18 (above Cal Arts at 19 and right behind Frost at 17). This sort of analysis suggests someone thinks highly of Lawrence, to put it at the same level as Frost and Cal Arts.
I like this thread. One thing that does crop up among musicians which S runs across (and I even see in older people like me) is whether you have been in drum corps (DCI) - “When did you march? Which corps?” It is an instant ice breaker, but I don’t know if it opens doors.
I don’t want to post over on the Brown vs UNT thread, but are we talking about secret societies where the secret hanshake gets you invited to the inner circle while others are shewed away? I don’t know those levels of prestige or how high society works. But we’re talking about musicians. Right?
Where does your daughter want to teach? We often hear “go to school in the state where you want to end up teaching”, to avoid any hassle trying to get your teaching credential accepted in a new state. My daughter did not look at U of M, but I was impressed with Lawrence’s music ed program when we visited. It’s all undergrad, so no getting lost among the grad students. And they seemed to have strong alumni connections.
She wants to teach- High school choir-possibly n our home state of IL- of course that is what she is most familiar with right now. With more exposure, her goals may change, though I doubt she would ever set her cap to do professional vocal performance. (she is kind of a folk singer, but that’s a different animal than VP ). 3goldensmom, where did your daughter end up?
Thanks songbird mama for your info, that is reassuring. I have a love hate relationship with all of those ranking sites (love them when they support what I already think, hate them when I don’t find what I want : ) ). I am trying my hardest not to give them too much credence…
For teaching high school in Illinois (the state I am in), it would be possible to call up high schools of interest and ask where they like to recruit from. Maybe they would say UIUC or NIU or ISU. But, I would guess that if you attended a college with name appeal that is outside of their normal expectations, that could be attractive.
Here is a story about prestige. A trumpet player auditioned in to the Maynard Feguson band on trumpet, but turned down the spot to take a top spot in the army band on trumpet. So, another guy, the second pick, got the Maynard Ferguson spot. Later, the second pick guy joined the army band and was given the top spot. The first guy said, “Hey, I beat that guy out for the Ferguson band and you are placing him over me.” Army said, “Yeah, but he was in the Ferguson band.” So, prestige did matter there.
I would imagine for musicians wishing to recruit private students, the prestige of the music school they will graduate or have graduated from does matter to their clients.
@compojazzmom That may be the case very very early in their career if all they are going to do is teach privately. But more importantly people will look at performance resume as well as their students accomplishments and what they hear about the teacher via word of mouth.
Just because someone is educated at the best conservatory does not mean they are a great teacher.
I do think that “name” schools open doors. So does exceptional talent, name or not.
We can’t predict where our kids will want to go in life, so all things being equal, I want them to have every possible advantage.
That may mean a name school, but not if it is going to leave them with a ton of debt — since the disadvantage of debt might trump the name advantage.
With respect to Michigan, the size of the school means there are more alums in circulation. They also are a highly loyal and spirited bunch, so I do suspect there may be some advantage in making connections over a small school. So many variables to consider! But this particular comparison does not seem like either choice would be “wrong”, just different.
This is for performance, though! It can definitely be enough to open doors sometimes…