<p>That's a crock. Harvard and Dartmouth majors get six figire investment banking jobs often.</p>
<p>Even if they were liberal arts majors?</p>
<p>Sorry, meant to say English majors.</p>
<p>To this point, everyone has discussed the classroom experience at an elite school. There are 112 waking hours in a week. A student spends 15 of them in class; perhaps 30 more studying. That leaves about 2/3 of their undergraduate life for experiences outside the classroom. Whether you spend those hours with classmates who could all get into Harvard or whether you spend them with a group that looks more like the general population makes the biggest impact on life and career prospects. The single greatest predictor of college student goals and aspirations is the peer group. I would expect that you could get a similar in-class experience at your state U as you can at Harvard, but you cannot duplicate the rest of the experience there.</p>
<p>gadad,
I think you nailed it, BUT, if the student is self motivated, they will still go on to achieve. Most of the MDs and several of the attorneys I know went to state U's undergrad.</p>
<p>A student that has the ability to get into an elite college will most likely succeed. S/he doesn't have to attend one, though. There was a study which showed that students who got into the top schools but didn't attend made the same income as those who did. It's the caliber of the student that determines one's success. The fact remains that the top schools generally get the most qualified students and therefore have a lot of boast about their alumni. But I believe that there is no harm in choosing a lesser school for whatever reason (most likely financial issues). If a student is capable of gaining admission a top school, s/he is made. After that, the choice is theirs; the outcome will probably be the same.</p>
<p>Don't companies recruit at certain colleges more often than others?</p>
<p>That might be one of the biggest advantages</p>
<p>Roger_Dooley, what did you vote?</p>
<p><<(of somewhat importance)</p>
<p>
[quote]
There was a study which showed that students who got into the top schools but didn't attend made the same income as those who did. It's the caliber of the student that determines one's success.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This study has been cited time and time again, but rarely with any reference to the most glaring statistical error of the study - namely that those people who get admitted to elite colleges, but choose not to go, are a highly unrepresentative group of people. It's like saying that people who drop out of Harvard, like Bill Gates or Matt Damon, are highly successful, so that means that there's no harm in going to Harvard only to drop out. No, what it really means is that people like Bill Gates had a very good reason not to finish their degrees. By the same token, I would argue that those people who get admitted to elite schools but choose not to go do so because they had good reasons. Like perhaps taking a full merit scholarship at a no-name school. Or getting into a BS/MD program at a no-name school. Or going to a service academy. </p>
<p>Hence, the point to be emphasized is that you should not turn down an elite school that you get into unless you have the same good reasons that those other people had for turning down an elite school that they had gotten into.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hence, the point to be emphasized is that you should not turn down an elite school that you get into unless you have the same good reasons that those other people had for turning down an elite school that they had gotten into.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It doesn't really matter what the reason is for turning down those schools. Those students who do are perfectly capable of becoming successful regardless of the reason. I'd even take it a step further by stating that even those students who are rejected but are fully capable of being admitted will have the same level of success as those who are. College admissions is so much of a crapshoot that over 80% of Harvard applicants are more than capable of being admitted. The 70% who are rejected but still qualified students will undoubtably find other avenues to success.</p>
<p>And what do you base that on? Has anyone else noted some of the most vocal against top schools applied to them, and ummmm, didin't make it in?</p>
<p>Was that directed to me? I'm not against the top schools (I'm going to Stanford, btw). In that regard, I may be a bit hypocritical. I personally know a number of people who were screwed over the admissions process, but from their academic prowess, work ethic, and overall character qualities, I'm sure that they'll be successful later in life. Top schools don't take in nearly as many of the top students as people think. There is little, if any, distinction among the accepted and the top rejected/waitlisted students at the top schools. The fact remains that there are thousands of highly-qualified students who don't make it one particular year because of the fluctuations of which types of "hooks" schools are looking for. A top school might need a lot of soccer players one year. Another year they may be in need of cellists. Those whose hooks are not needed will not be accepted, but they're still perfectly capable students who can find success regardless of where they attend.</p>
<p>Not directed at you, but yes, it may be hypocritical seeing as you did what it took to get into someplace that sets you up for the future because it's just nature for an ambitious, talented person. Are some kids screwed? Maybe. Though what is screwed really? I tend to think those that don't make it into any school realistic for their stats did not cross the T's.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It doesn't really matter what the reason is for turning down those schools. Those students who do are perfectly capable of becoming successful regardless of the reason. I'd even take it a step further by stating that even those students who are rejected but are fully capable of being admitted will have the same level of success as those who are. College admissions is so much of a crapshoot that over 80% of Harvard applicants are more than capable of being admitted. The 70% who are rejected but still qualified students will undoubtably find other avenues to success.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, the simple fact is, this is not supported by the study that you cited. The glaring statistical flaw is that they assumed that the people who got into an elite school but didn't go are equivalent to the people who did go to the elite school, and that is obviously not true. </p>
<p>Hence the reasoning is central. You have to look at WHY those people didn't go to those elite schools. For example, let's say I know I want to be a doctor. I'd probably turn down an elite school for a BS/MD program at a no-name school. Let's say as a HS senior, I already know exactly what I want to study. I might turn down an elite school to attend a no-name school that is extremely strong in that one field that I want to get into. Let's say I was an extremely frugal and money-conscious person. I'd probably turn down an elite school to take a full ride at some no-name school. </p>
<p>The point is that these people are DIFFERENT from the typical student at an elite school. They obviously march to a different drummer. They either have more personal motivation than the typical student at even an elite school, or are unusually mature, or have some other trait such that you cannot compare them.</p>
<p>I'll give you an example. Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras dropped out of high school and are obviously highly successful. So does that mean that everybody should drop out of high school? I don't think so. The reason that they dropped out is so that they could turn pro. They didn't just drop out because they thought it was fun to drop out. They dropped out because they had a compelling reason. You should only drop out of high school only if you have a similarly compelling reason. If you don't have a reason like that, then you shouldn't drop out. The point is that the reason matters. </p>
<p>That is, unless, you are of the opinion that it doesn't really matter if people graduate from high school or not, because as long as you are "high-school capable", you will inevitably succeed whether you actually have the HS diploma or not. I think very few people would agree with that. </p>
<p>Similarly, you should not turn down an elite school for a no-name school unless you have a compelling reason to do so. Some people do indeed turn down elite schools for no-name schools. I would argue that these people have compelling reasons to do so, so unless you are the same, you should not follow their path. Just like you don't drop out of high school just because you think it's fun to drop out of high school, you also don't just turn down Harvard just because you think it's fun to turn down Harvard. If you do things like this, your reasons had better be good.</p>
<p>Not attending an elite college is hardly similar to dropping out of high school. A better parallel would be attending a local public school as opposed to a prep school. Of course, there is currently no study which shows the success of capable elite college rejects. It would be nearly impossible to conduct such a study. How could one quantify the personal/character qualities that an elite college may require? Use your common sense, though. Is there such a wide disparity between the admitted pool and the top of the rejected pool? I think not. I realize that I am making a broad claim, one that will probably never be backed up by statistical evidence, but think about it. If there was such a difference in quality, one should easily be able to predict who will be admitted to elite colleges, year after year. Right now, admissions is considered a crapshoot. Why? Because there are far too many highly-qualified applicants. The picking and choosing among these applicants by the adcoms is not clear-cut. Those applicants who are perfectly capable but somehow don't make the cut a particular year (perhaps an elite school needed swimmers instead of singers) will probably find the same success from another school as they could have at a highly-ranked college.</p>
<p>There are many possible pathways for a college-educated individual to achieve success in the chosen career ("Just follow the simple advice in this book...." - HTSIB- WRT). </p>
<p>If we were to create an evaluation template to score the important factors that support success from 1-10, we would have to have, at a minimum, a category for "rational intelligence, " another for "motivation," another for "emotional intelligence," another for "K-12 education quality," another for "persistence," another for "confidence," and another for "post-secondary education quality" - with sub-categories of "course choices," "instruction quality," and finally "college prestige." {Leaving out more subjective factors like "supportive family" for the sake of simplicity} We would then score these factors for an individual, weight them according to the results of a comprehensive statistical analysis (magic happens here) and come out with a quantified SWAG to predict success.</p>
<p>Naturally, there would be examples of individuals who differed significantly from our expected norms.</p>
<p>I agree with those who have said that, for some careers and for those who will not continue to grad/prof school, prestige can be a big boost for the career entry point. I would qualify this by opining that other factors should be weighted more heavily for long-term success.</p>
<p>the question, what is an elite school to ppl? To the Catholics in the U.S., Notre Dame is one of the most elite schools.</p>
<p>Is it HYPSM
or some ivies mixed in with duke and others...
???</p>
<p>Everyone who's been touting the absolute NEED for an elite college degree, I honestly hope you get rejected from every top school. And then I hope you go on to be unbelievably successful afterwards. You need to learn what's really important in life because it looks like your priorities are completely screwed up.</p>
<p>I really can't believe that people like this exist. This is the reason I don't really WANT to go to an elite school. I don't want to get so wrapped up in people so obsessed with what the name of their alma mater is going to get them in 10 years that they can't even enjoy the actual experience of COLLEGE. It's just plain sad.</p>
<p>Might I add that the idea that an elite college degree is just going to guarantee six figure incomes is completely ludicrous and I'm sure many of you will figure that out when you begin applying for top jobs and you get denied despite your HYPS degree mostly because of your terrible attitude. Let me think of some of the richest people I know. My aunt went to San Diego State and is now a multi-millionaire who lives on Laguna Beach and owns not only a mansion but her own houseboat. My grandfather, a graduate of Miami University of Ohio with no grad school experience, became an investment banker with an INSANE amount of money. </p>
<p>But wait, I'll go on. Katie Couric, America's original sweetheart and supermillionaire, graduated from UVA. As we all know, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard. Oprah Winfrey, one of the richest women in the world? A graduate of Tennessee State. </p>
<p>Having a nice name on the top of your degree helps. But it isn't going to be the be-all, end-all of job hunting and money making. So much of climbing the corporate ladder is just being a good, hardworking person. Even if your Harvard degree gets you in the door, if you're an a$$hole, you're going to get fired. And you might get replaced but a much nicer, more genuine, and harder working graduate from a State U.</p>
<p>The importance of the degree as it applies to what? My wife never asked me where I graduated, but my father in law did. My first job out of college with a BS was given to me, in part, because of my school. My current empolyer probably doesn't care.</p>
<p>If you want to be a Lawyer, Doctor or Architect or perhaps a musician, the right school can open doors. The right law school can secure the position with the right firm....</p>
<p>If you wanted to become a public school math teacher, a degree from Harvey Mudd might not help you get the job but it could possibly increase what you had to offer.</p>
<p>Public Universities that offer Honors programs can have small class sizes. Private Universities can have huge core classes...how big is the intro to calculus at your school, it might be smaller at the local community college....would that make it better? What will matter if you change careers and become a scuba instructor in Fiji?</p>
<p>An elite degree is somewhat important, but an elite education, wherever you received it is of great importance because it allow you to contribute and to get so much more out of life.</p>
<p>Cornell 79</p>
<p>Great post, B</p>