How is financial aid amount determined?

Paying for College
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<p>The sad thing is that your situation is not unusual and there are many threads from many other young people with the same situation.</p>

<p>Based on the information that you presented, you will not be eligible for a non-custodial waiver of your father’s income and assets. If your father is unwilling to fill out the information on the non-custodial profile, you will not get financial aid. </p>

<p>Your talk track should be to get your father to fill out the forms. However, keep in mind that just because he fills out the forms, it does not obligate him to pay and no one can force him to pay if it is not his desire to do so.</p>

<p>Cast a wide net, look at schools where you and your sister stand a good chance of getting merit aid.</p>

<p>add Vanderbilt to your list because

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<p>Check the threads and apply to schools where both you and your sisters will be in a good position for automatic scholarships.</p>

<p>Don’t put your eggs in the BU basket, as there are a number of threads from students whose scores/gpas fell in the range and ended up coming up short on the financial aid end.</p>

<p>You definitely do not want to apply ED. Even though there is a caveat that if the financial aid is not doable, that you can be released, by the time you are released, you will miss the other school’s deadline. Apply RD, so at least you will have the opportunity to compare packages.</p>

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<p>The problem is that I have a better chance of getting in if i apply ED, and I would rather get in than not get in at all. I’m worried enough about my chances getting in ED, and I know that my chances of being accepted RD are even more unlikely. I am definitely going to contact the admissions office still and also ask when I visit, but both my parents’ salaries before taxes are 110K together. Though I know I would get significantly less aid with this income bracket, I still have a twin sister and therefore should at least get decent aid. If a person with the same income bracket had to pay 55K a year, they couldn’t expect both me and my sister to pay 55K, if the income after taxes is closer to 70 or 80K, the would have to realize that we’re both entering college together. In all the forums I read about Duke, I read about how wonderful an experience it is. As long as the lasting experience from those in the school is that it is a great place to go rather than a place that swindled them out of tens of thousands of dollars, I am not worried. I think lasting impressions are important, and if I went to Duke, I don’t think the most important thing I would take from the experience would be the price tag.</p>

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<p>I know I am not alone in this and I know that there are others who also want to have the forms waived, but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to try. I definitely will look into Vanderbilt, though! I’m definitely not expecting great aid from BU, but a few kids from my school, including my sister’s boyfriend, were admitted with lower stats than me and significantly higher family incomes, and got huge finaid because BU is a sponsor of my high school. I mean, like $40K a year in grants and scholarships, not including loans. I know that it’s not something to count on, but I know I have at least a really good shot.</p>

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<p>Run the net price calculator separately for both of your parents. then divide the EFC in 2, to get some idea as to how much they will have to come out of pocket for each of you.</p>

<p>Has either of your parents remarried?<br>
If yes, then your stepparents income and assets will be used in determining your EFC.</p>

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<p>However, great aid is a relative term. While your sister’s BF got a 40k financial aid package, the cost of attendance is 59k. Perhaps paying the 19k was doable for them because the BF is going to school for pretty much the same price as attending your in-state university. </p>

<p>Even if you should get the 40K package, with your mom making 35k, and your dad not contributing, how are you going to come up with the 19k. This is an admit deny, because the money will not work out.</p>

<p>I recommend reading this thread</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1344409-boston-u-financial-aid-2.html#post14429417[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1344409-boston-u-financial-aid-2.html#post14429417&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1322609-can-boston-university-sued.html?highlight=boston+university[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1322609-can-boston-university-sued.html?highlight=boston+university&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>With both you and your sister starting college, together, the EFC will be more like a 55/45 split between the 2 of you. You will get Pell based on your mom’s income.</p>

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<p>EFC stands for Expected Family Contribution and is the official term used for the number generated by FAFSA. You and your sister each have to complete FAFSA, as well as your mother. Your father’s input is not needed for this form which is the form to make a student eligible for federal aid. Other things like primary home equity are also not included on this form. </p>

<p>Your EFCs (your and sister and you will each get a figure, broken down by parent/student) will indicate whether you are PELL grant eligible. With a zero EFC, a student qualifies for about $5K in grant money from the federal government, and it goes down as the EFC number goes up. You are also qualified for up to $5500 in DIrect or Stafford loans in your own name, and can get an additional $4k in loans if your mother applies for the Parent Direct (often called PLUS) and is denied. All of this is based directly on the FAFSA EFC and would not involve your father. Some school will just use these numbers and not require any more info; others might ask for NCP info, require their own form also completed, or require you to complete PROFILE. The more selective schools like the ones on your list require PROFILE as well as FAFSA.</p>

<p>If you intend to apply ED to Duke, you need to complete the forms by the ED deadline, including getting your PROFILE done using estimates, getting your NCP forms completed. Schools may use different rules and procedures for ED than what they use for RD. If you do not have all of your ducks in a row, it is easier just to move your application into the RD file and defer a decision for incomplete file reasons. Schools do not like loose ends on ED acceptees because they want the decision finalized by the end of the year, so that they can move on to the RD pool which is their main business. So you are on a tighter deadline with ED in the picture.</p>

<p>So you have to start having a discussion with your father about completing the PROFILE before fall ends in order to get the ED forms going, or get the NCP waiver approved. Go on ahead and give it a go, but honestly, it does not look very likely to me that you will get NCP waiver since your father’s child support payments will be on your mother’s financials big as day. He is very much in your life, like it or not, and that he refuses to complete the forms or pay has nothing to do with whether he should be taken out of consideration. Sadly, he is typical, not the exception to the way non custodial parents act, and even parents who are in the picture. Some refuse to fill out the forms or refuse to pay or cannot pay what is expected of them.</p>

<p>Both the EFC and what PROFILE type schools expect in a contribution towards your education includes expectations of what YOU AND your parents have SAVED, will scrimp from current earnings and will borrow. Past, present and future earnings are what these expectations are based on the current income. Bear in mind that there is a student contribution to this expectation that generally increases each year. So you and your siblings should be working and putting some money away for college ( smart way to do this is to pay your mom to put it in a fund under her name the way this crazy system works). </p>

<p>Absolutely included BU and any other schools that have historically been favorable in giving aid and scholarships to kids from your school. Talk to your GC about such schools. She might have some pipe line to some of them that can be helpful. Your stats are high enough that schools that may not give much aid to most of their students, could give you some generous packages. The averages are just that, and if you fall above them, you are likely to get more than they indicate. So a number of FAFSA only schools might be a good bet for you along with schools that have some very nice merit awards. URochester, UPitt, any number of Catholic colleges,–these are all distinct possibilities as you are in line for any number of merit and merit within need awards. </p>

<p>Also ask your GC if she has info on Questbridge, look up the info yourself and see if you qualify. </p>

<p>You have more possibilities than the vast majority of college students, so your hard work and talents have not been wasted. Without those attributes, the chances of getting a full need type package is just about zip from most schools, the same as getting merit. Even if your father would pay what is fully expected of him, your options would be more limited with out the stats you have.</p>

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I have no idea why you would feel that way. Would it be better to get in and not be able to afford it? That sounds worse to me. Are you just keeping score?</p>

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<p>If you insist on applying ED to Duke (which I also would not recommend), I strongly encourage you to also apply early in the cycle to any schools on your list that have rolling admissions or non binding early action. Also any regular decision applications should be double or triple checked to ensure there is not an earlier deadline for consideration of merit money. If there is, make sure those applications are also submitted in time to be considered for those scholarships (including extra applications, essays or letters of recommendation that may be required. )</p>

<p>If accepted ED to Duke, you will be required to withdraw all those applications once you make the decision to accept, but if the finance don’t work out, you wont
have missed any other priority deadlines for merit scholarships. I know our state flagship does not have a priority deadline, but does have rolling admissions and makes merit offers as those applications are processed. When the money runs out, then later applications do not have merit $$ available to them. My D applied in Sep, had an early acceptance with scholarship offer, while fellow classmates with higher rank who applied close to the deadline got nothing.</p>

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<p>Questbridge requires info from the non-custodial parent as well.</p>

<p>Here’s a quick EFC estimator: [FinAid</a> | Calculators | QuickEFC](<a href=“Your Guide for College Financial Aid - Finaid”>Your Guide for College Financial Aid - Finaid)</p>

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<p>*Quote:
The problem is that I have a better chance of getting in if i apply ED, and I would rather get in than not get in at all.</p>

<p>==========
I have no idea why you would feel that way. Would it be better to get in and not be able to afford it? That sounds worse to me. Are you just keeping score?*</p>

<p>Erin’s Dad is right. Getting accepted ED to a school that you can’t afford is nothing more than seeking notches in your belt.</p>

<p>It sounds, to me, that your mom feels very bad about how the divorce is affecting the kids so she’s being “supportive” of the ED app…even if it’s not a realistic strategy. That’s just delaying possible big disappointment. </p>

<p>Why not apply to Vanderbilt and USC (calif). They don’t usually require NCP info. </p>

<p>If you talk to your dad and he PROMISES that he’ll fill out the NCP paperwork and supply financial info, then maybe applying ED isn’t that bad as long as you have other apps out there…including ones for schools with large merit scholarships.</p>

<p>If you insist on applying ED to Duke (which I also would not recommend), I strongly encourage you to also apply early in the cycle to any schools on your list that have rolling admissions or non binding early action. Also any regular decision applications should be double or triple checked to ensure there is not an earlier deadline for consideration of merit money. If there is, make sure those applications are also submitted in time to be considered for those scholarships (including extra applications, essays or letters of recommendation that may be required. )</p>

<p>Exactly. If you insist on applying ED to Duke, then also put your apps into schools that have early scholarship deadlines. Many have scholarships deadlines in Nov and Dec 1st…which is before ED results come out.</p>

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<p>Also look at what kind of financial aid packages the colleges on your list give. It is entirely possible that you and your twin might qualify for PELL and can use the Stafford loans towards your EFC, as some schools do not include loans or PELLS in the packages they give to the students. I don’t know how Duke handles this. </p>

<p>You need to start looking at what schools have early deadline merit awards, as they may be a good bet and also look at getting even your RD appls out early. Because things are changing so quickly, it is wise to get the most up to date info directly from the schools as anything out there even on the web is outdated, but when you call make sure you know what is on the college websites. You just want to confirm and find out if there are any changes or anything else new. </p>

<p>Go right on ahead and do as you want with ED and the NCP waivers. Until you go through the process and see how it turns out for you, you won’t know. Realize that you are going to be in the situation of trying to get a NCP waiver at the same time your trying to get your father to fill out the PROFILE forms. You are really dancing on the fence here.</p>

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<p>OP, be aware too, that schools usually expect your family to contribute more than the FAFSA EFC, so, even if that number looks “doable” for your family, most likely the schools could expect you to come up with double or triple that! The “EFC” is really just to calculate whether or not you qualify for the PELL grant - or other state grants, etc. Our EFC is 6200, but we are paying almost twice that for my D’s school, and that was the best offer out of several. Some schools wanted over 3 times the EFC…just not workable for us.
Yes, applying ED does help a strong candidate’s chances of acceptance, but if you are a kid who desperately needs financial aid to attend, you aren’t in the socio-economic group that can afford to apply ED - might not be “fair”, but life isn’t fair. Rich kids who can pay the whole cost out of pocket can take the ED chance, or kids who don’t need boat loads of financial help. Admissions reps at EVERY college visit we attended said over and over, “if you need to be able to compare financial aid offers to determine the schools you can afford, then do not apply early decision. You won’t have the benefit of being able to compare offers and may have to commit to a school that then ends up being more expensive then you can honestly handle.” Don’t forget, just like building a house, there are always unexpected expenses that come up during college - so if at first it looks like, yeah, you can just barely afford a school but you take the plunge, throw in an unexpected car accident that means a car purchase, or something goes wrong on a house leading to an unexpected expense, and now, that college that was just workable becomes impossible…
It’s hard when you are a kid to have to think about all the monetary concerns that adult life brings, but when you are taking about spending thousands of dollars, a family that doesn’t have extra money means kids have to learn the hard realities. Your fortitude is going to bring you through and make you a much more appreciative student of whatever education you can afford - You will make the most of it, whether you attend your State U, or Duke.</p>

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<p>“Has either of your parents remarried?”
-Neither of my parents is remarried.</p>

<p>“With both you and your sister starting college, together, the EFC will be more like a 55/45 split between the 2 of you”
-Sorry, what do you mean by this?</p>

<p>“Absolutely included BU and any other schools that have historically been favorable in giving aid and scholarships to kids from your school.”
-I was in a new high school for the past three years, so the seniors above me are unfortunately the only ones who have graduated from m high school. However, I have to transfer to a public school for senior year, which typically sends a few kids to ivys and such every year, although I’m not sure what the financial aid offers typically are, and I’ll ask.</p>

<p>“Would it be better to get in and not be able to afford it? That sounds worse to me. Are you just keeping score?”
Definitely not, I just know that if I got in, I would do absolutely ANYTHING to be able to go, including asking extended family to pitch in and stopping my extracurriculars to work multiple jobs and taking out a lot of bank loans. I would rather have the option and work really hard and apply for a hundred scholarships than not get in at all. It’s definitely not to “keep score,” especially since i don’t intend to apply to schools I don’t truly want to go to. </p>

<p>“I strongly encourage you to also apply early in the cycle to any schools on your list that have rolling admissions or non binding early action.”
-I have about four schools on my list that I will be applying early to, three of which I will almost definitely be accepted to. Thanks! This is definitely good advice.</p>

<p>“It sounds, to me, that your mom feels very bad about how the divorce is affecting the kids so she’s being “supportive” of the ED app…even if it’s not a realistic strategy.”
-To be honest, the divorce isn’t affecting me badly AT ALL, and my mom knows it. I’m not lying when I say I’m not affected by not seeing my dad. My parents have been divorced before, and I cried when they got back together because I’m not a fan of my dad and I don’t mind not having him around, and if anything, I was glad when I found out they were getting divorced again. The reason why my mom is being supportive is because she believes that we’ll get enough financial aid, could have the forms waived, and even if not will still probably get good financial aid. 110K isn’t that much, especially compared to the families of most of the kids who apply to Duke. We will also very likely get a lot of the local scholarships in my town. Mostly, it’s just having hope that something will turn out right. My mom isn’t one to lie or be anything but completely sincere. If there’s one thing I’m sure of, it’s that my mom is fully on board, not just for my sake and with complete understanding of the possibilities and what it means. </p>

<p>Why not apply to Vanderbilt and USC (calif). They don’t usually require NCP info.
I am applying to Vanderbilt! Thanks so much to the person who suggested it, I’ve done a lot more research on it and it’s one of my top schools currently. However, I base my decisions on whether i like the school and I think I’m a good fit as a student, not financially, and USC is not what I’m looking for.</p>

<p>“If you talk to your dad and he PROMISES that he’ll fill out the NCP paperwork and supply financial info, then maybe applying ED isn’t that bad as long as you have other apps out there”
-I contacted him. He wants me to waive the forms but says he’ll “probably be able to find time” to fill out the paperwork if I can’t. In my dad’s terms, it I’m annoying about it and nag him to fill them out, I’ll probably be able to get him to do it.</p>

<p>" It is entirely possible that you and your twin might qualify for PELL and can use the Stafford loans towards your EFC, as some schools do not include loans or PELLS in the packages they give to the students"
-Sorry, I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this (I feel so clueless looking at this entire thread.) I know Duke gives mostly just grants and limits giving out loans, and in my case I would probably be granted mostly grants, by a large majority. I’m not sure if that gives you more information that you already have.</p>

<p>“if you need to be able to compare financial aid offers to determine the schools you can afford, then do not apply early decision. You won’t have the benefit of being able to compare offers and may have to commit to a school that then ends up being more expensive then you can honestly handle.”
-I’m really hoping that they take into account the mess that is my mom’s financial history, but if not, I know that there’s a possibility that I would be in trouble. Just a question: Can I take out student loans for my entire college cost (minus obvious scholarship deuctions) to be paid at the end of my four years? This sounds like a dumb question, but everyone here is assuming my mom will be paying for my college education, which I didn’t think would happen. Are the only loans I can have the ones given to me by the school, or can I also get bank loans and such?</p>

<p>Sorry for this very long response. I want to thank everyone again for responing. Although I know that I now feel even more confused in some ways, I also know what questions to be asking and how to proceed. Thank you especially to cptofthehouse for suggesting Vanderbilt, which I love! I would not have known their financial aid information if you hadn’t informed me of it.</p>

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<p>My daughter graduated from Vanderbilt in 2011. The financial aid is fabulous! The school itself is great, as well.</p>

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<p>Our income wasn’t a whole lot higher than yours. Out kiddo had $10,000 in merit aid for Boston University and the rest was our bill to pay. When his sister started college and we had two in college at the same time, they increased his scholarship by $250. </p>

<p>Unless your family can afford to pay the majority of the cost of attending Boston University, an acceptance will do you no good. As a student, you will have no way to work enough hours to pay this yourself. Sure…apply regular decision…maybe the money will come through. </p>

<p>I very seriously doubt you will get a noncustodial parent waiver.</p>

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<p>That’s wonderful! Congrats to your daughter (though likel overdue!). Can I ask - what does she think of the town of Nashville? I am from the Northeast (where are you from, if you don’t mind my asking?) and I don’t think I’ll have a chance to visit!</p>

<p>I know BU is very expensive and gives different amounts of financial aid, the onl reason I know I would get a good scholarship that is reasonable is because of their affiliation with my school. That’s awful and shameful that the onl gave you $250 extra. That’s crazy.</p>

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<p>You personally can take out a direct loan (stafford) for 5500 as a freshman, 6500 as a sophomore, and 7500 as a junior and a senior. If your parent applies for a PLUS loan and is denied you can borrow an additional 4000 per year. Some schools also have the ability to offer Perkins loans, but this will vary. </p>

<p>It is unlikely that without significant merit money you will be able to afford private university tuition on your own. A non-custodial parent waver will likely be difficult to obtain since you have contact with your father. </p>

<p>For private loans you will need a qualified co-signer.</p>

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<p>Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the information!</p>

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<p>We are from Michigan. The south is “different” … but that is not a negative thing. It’s just a statement of fact. There are lots of non-southerners at Vandy, and not all southerners are the same! :slight_smile: But my D was used to UMich football games, where people wear jeans and sweatshirts, so it was strange to her that everyone was dressed up for games. It’s little things like that that are different (people are people everywhere).</p>

<p>My D LOVED Nashville. It’s a very liveable town. She loves music (singer-songwriter stuff), so was happy to get her fill of great music. She didn’t party - never rushed or went to a fraternity part - but she found friends and things to do. She took advantage of so many things Vandy had to offer, and she truly felt that she got a top-notch education.</p>

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<p>Here’s another possibility:</p>

<p>Apply to Duke RD. Yes, you’re giving up the ED admissions boost. You’d get the same FA package regardless. You’d probably have some other admissions offers, and some other perhaps more generous FA packages. Those become your bargaining chips with the Duke FA office. They will be much more inclined to negotiate with your FA during RD than during ED. There’d be a greater possibility of being able to afford Duke, in exchange for a lower possibility of being actually admitted. </p>

<p>It’s clear you’d love to go to Duke. It’s also clear that the finances just might not work out. Unless your extended family is very well-off, you’re unlikely to get much money from them–after all, you’re a strong student who will be offered generous merit aid elsewhere. Working multiple jobs while a student isn’t going to produce much revenue, and could reduce your aid package. Outside scholarships large enough to make an expensive school affordable are highly competitive. Of course you should apply for these, with the understanding that many other excellent applicants are vying for them, too. Smaller scholarships are often just for freshman year. And bank loans are limited unless you have a cosigner…and as you are considering med school, anything outside the Stafford limits is a bad bad bad idea.</p>

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<p>Let me try to clarify how things work in financial aid most of the time. You will have to complete FAFSA. Your mother, your twin and you will each have to apply for a PIN and your mother will have to complete the parent section for both you and your twin. Your father will not be involved in the process though his child support payments have to be included as income. The numbers used will be from your mother (and you/twin’s if you file) tax information for 2012, and the earliest you will be able to fill out this form is on Jan 1 2013. The numbers will have to jive with the return and you will not get the actual money until this is done, so this is not the year to fool around with extensions. The day any of you complete the FAFSA, your accounts should be as empty as possible–don’t pick pay day to do this, but AFTER your bills are paid. If you and your sister have any bank accounts or assets, you should start reimbursing your mother for living expenses, and have her put such payments into an account with her name and ssn primary on it. Students get a direct hit of 20% of any assets with no allowance. Parents get hit maybe 5% or so after a certain allowance and if your mother is able to file certain short forms and qualifies for an automatic zero EFC, assets won’t be counted at all until a rather high amount. Given your information, it is entirely possible that you and your sister will get zero or very low EFCs (Expected Family Contributions). IF that is the case, you will each qualify for up to about $5K in federal PELL grant money at ANY college since that money comes from the federal government and is guarnateed. This also qualifies each of you to $5500 in Direct loans also from the government, usable anywhere as long as the cost of attendance of a college is not exceeded, since, again this is government money, not any college’s funds. The way the FAFSA EFC is calculated, it will be exactly half of what your mother’s numbers are in that forumula plus whatever your personal financial numbers are for you, and your sister’s will reflect her earnings and asset which could be different. </p>

<p>But most colleges that guarantee to meet need, the more generous schools, the ones you have listed, also want another application called CSS PROFILE. You will get the government money based on that FAFSA EFC as I said above, but when it comes to the school giving out any of its own money, it can follow the golden rule of “He who has the gold makes the rules”. You could have a zero EFC and not be eligible for aid at some of these colleges, because they ask for information that FAFSA does not. They want that NCP information for which you want a waiver. They also want home equity info, sometimes values of cars owned, values of siblings’ accounts, and 401 K and retirement accounts. SOme say that they want the value of the fillings in your teeth. The sick joke is that EFC stands for “Every Friggin’ Cent” and Profile digs even deeper than that. So these wonderful, generous schools that guarantee to meet full need, define this need themselves. With me so far?</p>

<p>So it is possible to get full Pell and Staffords, which can come to over %$10K from the government, also get work study and if the school has some other federal program, get some money from them, but not get money from the school itself which is where you need to get the bulk of the funds since at $60K a year, which is what many of these privates cost, what FAFSA will qualify you for, ain’t gonna cut it. </p>

<p>Your mother also would be eligible to apply for a Direct parent loan often called PLUS, but would have to be credit worthy. If she is declined, each of you, your twin and you can borrow an additional $4K on your own from Staffords. That is about it for loans that YOU can take out. ANything else will need a credit worthy cosigner to be on the hook right there with you, and that would be through private sources. Ain’t no way anyone is likely to lend money to an 18-19 year old without a good credit and job history. You will need a cosigner.</p>

<p>As for applying for ED, I think it’s a lousy idea, but if you are set on it, go on ahead. You will have to get your NCP waiver processed in that narrow window of time with your ED college. Because FAFSA is not available until January of 2013, for you, you would be completing a CSS PROFILE on an estimated basis for an estimated ED award. YOu are going to have the complication of his child support showing on your mother’s income and also your twin will be trying to do the same, I imagine. Be aware that whatever estimated amount that an ED school awards is an estimate only, and they will do a verification process before giving out your money, once actual returns are due, and it may be a problem if there is snag when that happens. You will be asked to withdraw all of your applications based on that estimate, and if a problem arises, you will be up the creek, and you are not on solid ground here.</p>

<p>PROFILE does not split the EFC 50/50 betweem two students in college as FAFSA does. When I explained FAFSA, remember your mother will get an EFC and it will be split in half since there are two of you going to be in college. PROFILE schools take that number and give it a 60 or 55% split. In other words, if your mother (and in PROFILE without the waiver, your father) will get a contirbuiton amount, say, $1200 that she may be expected to pay in total for your education for a year. FAFSA would split that in half with $600 atributed to you and $600 to your twin. Not so with PROFILE, most of the time. That $1200 figure would not be split, but a percentage applied to it, say 60%, and a contribution of say $720 would be expected for you and $720 for your twin, so that the sum would exceed what she would have been expected to pay if there were just one of you in college. This gives you some idea how PROFILE works.</p>

<p>I have been seeing an increasing number of snafoos in EDs in the last few years, and IMO not the way to go if you are on thin ice as you are. Any changes or perceived changes from your ED estimated situation and you are done. You have no where to go and negotiate other than your local state school that are open admissions because you withdraw you app upon acceptance to ED which has provisions in that acceptance.</p>