<p>hoedown-
The most important factor seems to be selectivity (SAT). There is a correlation of -.59 between SAT and the 4- versus 6-year difference, which is a pretty strong relationship. Publics tend to have lower SAT averages. But, as you say, it is not the only factor. The percent of grads in Bus, Eng, Sci, and Comp Sci is correlated only .23 with the 4yr/6yr difference, so I conclude that lab courses,internships, and co-op are minor factors. The public vs private pattern is pretty dramatic. I wonder whether SAT can explain it all. I think perhaps difficulty getting required courses might be another part of it. I think publics partly respond to budget cutbacks by cutting course offerings.</p>
<p>Roger_Dooley's point has merit about lower motivation to finish in four years when tuition is low.</p>
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Lots more kids at publics are paying for a much higher proportion of their own college education and working. How many kida are working their way through Duke?
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<p>But as you and I have clashed over before, while that's a true * reason, it's not a *good reason. That is, while I agree that this does happen, it shouldn't happen. After all, it is costly to stay longer in school, not only in terms of additional tuition, but more importantly, in terms of lost wages. Put another way, if a rich person doesn't graduate on time (or doesn't even graduate at all), it doesn't really matter, because he's rich anyway. But a poor person needs to graduate as quickly as possible so that he can get out to the workforce and make a college-graduate-level salary. </p>
<p>That is why I have advocated that public schools need to provide better financial aid to their poorer students so that they don't have to work while studying and hence won't delay their graduation. Now obviously this isn't an option for all public schools, but it certainly is possible for some. For example, the University of Michigan has an impressively large endowment now. Why can't it use some of that money to provide better FA for its poorer students? Not for the rich students obviously, but for the poor students. </p>
<p>Let's be honest. Most part-time jobs don't really pay THAT much. Hence, it wouldn't take that much extra money to replace those jobs with better FA.</p>
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I agree with the money issue for privates. I have a very nice scholarship, but it only lasts 8 semesters. So basically, I know I have to graduate in that amount of time, which means I can't change majors too late or anything like that.
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<p>Again, I agree that this is something that DOES happen, but SHOULDN'T happen. Public schools should also be encouraging students to graduate on time. Otherwise, you end up with ridiculous situations like Johnny Lechner who has been at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater for 14 years and STILL hasn't graduated. This guy is clearly just not serious about graduating.</p>
<p>The problem with that is twofold. #1, by just lolly-gagging around, as guys like Lechner are clearly doing, you're just taking a spot that could have been used by somebody else who actually is serious about graduating. #2, you're also wasting state taxpayer money. This is not a game here. Publicly funded higher education is a social contract. The taxpayers subsidize your degree, but in return for you actually being serious about graduating. I think having the taxpayers subsidize your higher education for a certain number of years is reasonable. If you want to stay longer, you are free to do so, but the taxpayers shouldn't have to continue to subsidize you. Hence, I think public schools should cut off tuition subsidies after a certain number of years (i.e. 4-6 years). Certainly, you can't have guys like Lechner hanging around for 14 years while milking the taxpayer (which is why Wisconsin rightfully passed the 'Lechner slacker tax' to force long-term students to pay full fare).</p>
<p>Michigan has not gotten an increase in state funding over the last 5 years or so and not much is expected in the future due to the car economy stinking. They need every cent they can generate to keep their operations going. They have already increased tuition to the maximum level. Many other state schools are in a similar situation.<br>
Also whether you are 21, 22, or 23 when you start working really is not that big a deal. You have over 40 years to work either way and believe me--that is a LONG time. I much rather spend some extra time in college living the student life and working part-time for an extra year or two. Most people still look back at those years as some of the best in their life no matter how little money they had. Money is NOT everything.</p>
<p>GoBlue81-
My first reaction to your list of privates with big 4yr/6yr differentials was that they were mostly schools with big engineering emphasis. But, Northwestern, Caltech and Cornell have only 7 or 8% differentials. Go figure. Northwestern is on the quarter system and has co-ops.</p>
<p>The four- and six-year grad rate do not take transfers into account. If a student transfers to another college, they are still a drop-out. But, I think schools can optionally report the students who transfer out. Both students who drop out of college completely and students who transfer to another college often do so because of academic difficulty.</p>
<p>DePaul in Chicago, which is a very nice college, promises that if you take a full load each quarter, you will graduate on time. It's a real guarantee. They will give you free tuition for your fifth year if you don't graduate in four years.</p>
<p>I have to wonder how they calculate those numbers. I live in Michigan so I know quite a few kids who attended. All but one graduated in four years. Both of mine did. One in economics and the other engineering. It wasn't even very difficult. As a matter of fact, more kids (that I know) graduated in four years from Michigan than the other smaller state universities or the private schools. Maybe it's because they were more motivated students. Who knows.</p>
<p>The standard for Michigan, and what is included in "cost of attendance", is 2 semesters per year for a total of 8. From what I hear, many students at Michigan attend spring half-term, some for all four years, in order to graduate in four years. Does that ring true, those of you with Michigan ties? If so, it seems to me to be a "hidden" cost of attendance.</p>
<p>barrons and hoedown-
The statement that many students who transfer are in academic difficulty comes from a study at one large private university where they subscribe to a tracking service that tells them which students transfer, and where. At this school, the percentage of transfers with gpas less than 2.5 was very large. I will have to check on the exact percentage.</p>
<p>In your comment about co-ops losing the year or so of earnings by delaying graduation...it's fallacious. At Ga Tech, a co-op will earn an amount equivalent to a year's earnings while in school, plus gain valuable experience. On top of that, the difference in graduating as a co-op vs. not co-oping is only about 6 months. That is documented at GT. Also, the co-ops as a group take fewer school terms to graduate, thus paying less fees and tuition, and are made more job offers at higher salaries upon graduation.</p>
<p>You need to get all of the facts before making generalized statements that might mislead someone.</p>
<p>tomakins-
So, you are saying that a half-year of co-op will earn $30K? That's not bad, if true. I figure the average starting salary for engineers is about $60K. </p>
<p>But why not simply co-op in the summer and not lose a half year of classes?</p>
<p>How many of your students on co-op fail to return to school because they get a job instead? Just curious.</p>
<p>How about the quality of the experiences they have on co-op? </p>
<p>Are students out-of-synch when they return from co-op, both academically and socially?</p>
<p>Why don't more schools jump on the required co-op bandwagon if it is so effective?</p>
<p>How do co-op students feel when they are in their fifth or sixth year and their friends have graduated?</p>
<p>I am skeptical about the claims made by you and others about the benefits of co-op.</p>
<p>And by the way, my point re UM was that many of those who appear to graduate in four years at UM are not graduating in the standard time frame - that is, that time frame on which the tuition costs are built.</p>
<p>collegehelp-
I was thinking about students transferring in, like from CCs. Public universities get a lot of transfers (e.g., UCLA takes in 3,286 transfers in 2006). If these transfers are counted, it will significantly impact the 4-year graduation rate. Transfers are inherently disadvantaged and may need an extra term to graduate. The following is excerpted from UCSD's transfer page:</p>
<p>"Many students who complete 2 full years of transferable coursework at a community college graduate 2 years after transferring to UC, but the average is 2.9 years."</p>
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From what I hear, many students at Michigan attend spring half-term, some for all four years, in order to graduate in four years.
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Not from my perspective. Most of the students I know are back home working on their summer internships.</p>
<p>And I've never heard any of them complaining about not being able to sign up for required courses. I don't see any reason why a student has to take summer school to graduate.</p>
<p>SBDad: from my perspective, most only go the 8 semesters. One of mine took one community college class the summer between freshman and sophomore year in order to not take that class at UofM. (my engineering student who didn't like philosophy). Total added cost $300. On the other hand, his last semester he only needed 12 credits to graduate. He had no problems getting the classes he wanted.</p>
<p>Two girls I know did take classes over the summer. At smaller schools closer to home. But they graduated from UMich in 3 1/2 years. That saved a bunch of money. Lower tuition and lived at home.</p>
<p>I'm sure you know this, but I'm not talking about "summer" school. UM gets out around the end of April. The spring term I'm talking about goes from the start of May to mid-June. Then the student has summer term off - mid June to Sept. 1. I asked at orientation how many students do spring term, and was told that the student population during spring term was about 40% of what is was in fall/winter. That doesn't seem to jive with your experiences.</p>
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The statement that many students who transfer are in academic difficulty comes from a study at one large private university where they subscribe to a tracking service that tells them which students transfer, and where.
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<p>Thanks, I'd like to know more about that school's situation. The tracking service referenced is the National Student Clearinghouse, and it's a really great tool for learning more about where disenrollees end up.</p>