@Creekland what area do you live in? I have 4 CC’s around me that all offer the first two years of the STEM education.
@steffenberr Our kids are merit $$ seekers. The best scholarships are offered by the school themselves and their best scholarships are for freshman admissions, not transfer students. Even if we had considered a CC (which we didn’t and wouldn’t bc of the very reasons I have posted), it would have cost us significantly more to go that route. (Our kids have earned a lot of scholarship $$.)
Fwiw, our oldest ds is a chemE. He entered with enough cr hrs that he graduated in 6 full semesters and 1 summer semester. He attended fall and spring both freshman and sophomore yrs (did research his sophomore yr and that summer), co-oped for 12 straight months, attended fall, spring, and summer, graduating that August. I am not sure how easily a transfer engineering student adds in a co-op experience, especially at schools that rotate co-op semesters vs allowing 12 straight months. Getting off sequence for course offerings is a huge problem.
I wonder if it depends a lot on the specific college in your area how you feel about CC? Last year our local CC had a graduate earn a Rhodes scholarship. It is really true it is what you make of it.
@Creekland , some community colleges allow you to earn an associate’s in engineering and follow the same course sequence as if you were enrolled as a major in a 4 year university so you are not at a disadvantage when you transfer. Word on the street is that the local CC has more rigorous engineering courses in the first two years than the large research institution down the road so students start there to be better prepared for their 3rd and 4th year classes. They also dual admit for Drexel engineering. I think sometimes people think the only coursework available is the core with a Liberal Arts degree but you can do all those heavy STEM sequences at our local CC. I used to work with a very bright chem major who transferred from Drexel to the local CC in her freshman year and found work in the lab. I have not kept up with her but I’m guessing she saved a lot of money and then transferred back again as a readmission.
Unless a student has very high test scores/GPA which would garner a lot of merit aid or a highly selective school that is very special, it’s hard for me to see how 4 year college would be worth the expense. Staying local, since we are living in adjunct world, the professors are the same professors who teach at all the schools (Ivy, large research, CC). Heck, my daughter had a HS teacher who she loved who adjuncts at the local Ivy and CC. The academic world is a lot more mixed up now than it used to be and opportunity is more democratic simple in terms of quality of education.
Here we see the difference between Pennsylvania and California with respect to the usability of transfer pathways. It appears that the Pennsylvania equivalent to the California CC->UC transfer pathway starts at the relatively expensive Penn State branch campuses before transfer to Penn State main campus (and in-state financial aid at Penn State is not that good).
California engineering students can also choose many of the CSUs, which are low cost four year undergraduate and master’s degree schools that cater mainly to local populations (entry can be either as frosh of transfer from CC). Pennsylvania’s rough equivalents, the PASSHE schools, have very limited engineering offerings.
will first off, @Mom2aphysicsgeek hats off to you! You must be very proud mother to have such accomplished children. It makes sense why they went straight off to a four year then. But Id argue that unfortunately, must college students dont have the same situation.
I guess the purpose of my post is to urge people not to jump to conclusions. One should really evaluate their personal situation as well as the quality of their local CC’s as they all obviously are not the same. They shouldn’t just jump straight to only applying to the “top” or “most prestigious” schools just based off the assumption that just because its more selective, it must be a better school for them to go to. I regret to say thats how I started my college search which ended up costing me time and money.
@CCtoAlaska I couldnt have said it better myself
@ucbalumnus youre probably right, I know very little about Pennsylvania. Its makes you wonder why so many CA students dont take advantage of the $47 a unit price at the CCs here!
@ucbalumnus I don’t think you can really compare the two systems of PA and CA. The UC system is so much bigger and integrated than higher ed in PA. For pathways that will save a lot of money you still need to look at CC to 4 year institutions.
I believe this is what most of us are trying to say. The question, “Where should I go,” might be the same for all heading to college, but the answer most definitely isn’t.
I don’t keep track of this. If I worked in guidance, I might, but I teach so what I learn comes from talking with students both before they leave for college when they are curious about where to go and then as they make their selections and then when they come back to school to share their experiences. Then I have three college grads of my own. I’ll agree with you that most students aren’t really interested in research though. They want a degree and a job. A fair number do start at our local CC. Others go to our true state schools (PASSHE schools). I’m in a more rural area of PA (not super rural, but still classified as rural). Our top students tend to be those most interested in research. Those are the students who really don’t do better starting at CC.
When my lads took their CC courses (while in high school, but at the CC) the cost to us was just over $250 per credit hour. Add the lab fee and books to my lad’s 4 hour Microbio course and that course alone cost us just about $1500. I’m not sure what the cost is now TBH. That lad is now in his second year of med school after doing 5 years for undergrad (via a special Take 5 program, not due to being unable to graduate in 4) and the Microbio course was his junior year of high school, so roughly 8 years ago.
If you have a local Ivy, we might be in the same state, but we’re nowhere near the same CCs. We also occasionally have high school teachers who teach a class or two at our local CC or LAC though. I learn a bit from them too TBH, and definitely stick to what I’ve said about caliber in various places. One should know their area.
Absolutely. Those who want to go 2+2 in most STEM majors here start at Penn St or Pitt’s branch campuses. Mont Alto is popular as is Johnstown. Kids do it for other majors too. Last I looked PA’s state college cost was second or third highest in our nation - meaning kids with good stats, esp those interested in heading away from home, usually do as good with aid from private schools. This definitely happened with my own lads. My youngest probably could have gone to a state school cheaper, but they didn’t have his beginning desired major and we could afford his first choice school after merit aid was applied, so all was fine.
Are you from Calif?
Although I don’t believe that students who come from CCs are more focused or better prepared, it does sound like you’re talking about Calif CCs which are much better than the majority of other states’ CCs.
@mom2collegekids No I am not in California. I am on the East Coast.
My experience has been very similar to @steffenberr although it was back in the dark ages. 
I started at a prestigious private wanna-be Ivy after being told CC’s were beneath me. Failed out, went to CC where I should have been all along given my personality. Received an AAS, was nominated as a Goldwater scholar at the CC level; eventually have received a BS, MS, MBA and am working on another MS.
So, my statement is both from what I experienced, and from what I see from our T2 students (although T4 students perform at similar levels). Again, low numbers and institution-specific, but talking to my peers it’s not out of the ordinary. Data is likely biased because a different type of student will choose to continue at a public versus a private institution.
@Creekland I live right near a PSU branch and it’s very dinky. I would not choose it over the local CC because the pathway is restricted to a very expensive Penn State education. The credits at that campus are $700 a credit with the CC being $300/credit (my kid is actually paying $99 because she’s dual enrolled). If you don’t transfer for whatever reason, that can be a very costly mistake and the associate’s degree options are extremely limited. And not all majors are available to PSU transfer students. With CC, there are more options and you can match transfer college to how you do in your classes. It’s more flexible.
@ScarletRobin every student I’ve talked to from the schools that have dual admissions with the local CC has said they wished they started at community just because of the sheer cost. If you talk to students and not parents, things sound a little different once they are in that 3rd or 4th year and they realize all the debt or earlier if they are finding the environment tough. Most students are not looking for prestigious research opportunities, they are just trying to get through their classes. I went to an LAC known for heavy undergraduate research opportunities but it was limited to a couple of departments. My department had none and the professors had no contacts for summer programs.
@CCtoAlaska Yes the PSU branches are small. That’s actually what attracts some of the students to them - the preference of the smaller size and closer to home over Main Campus. They aren’t much different in size than our local CC. I just looked up the numbers at each and the local CC has roughly 1800 across all programs (higher numbers if one changes locations, but most from my high school stay local if choosing CC), Mont Alto has about 1200, PSU York has about 1000. Any of the three are good options for those who aren’t interested in the tougher environment of a higher level 4 year school like PSU.
One of the big draws for students to 4 year schools to begin is the college experience TBH. Kids enjoy it. No problem with that as long as they stick with an affordable school. There’s also nothing at all wrong with top students wanting schools and experiences that match up to their ability. Some folks seem to make that out to be horrid. It’s not. A good peer of my middle lad went to an undergrad (4 year) that was free for him and in hindsight wishes he had chosen a better place. He’s still in med school now, so is quite successful, but his opportunities along the way didn’t even being to compare to my lad. There’s no do-over.
Fit the school to the student and keep it affordable. I’ll repeat again that there is no single answer to fit all students - not even all students from any one high school. We have the whole range at our school - as I suspect most schools do. The right path for Student A can be the totally wrong path for Student B.
I wonder why CC is so much more expensive in PA than CA! Out of state CC only costs $250 a unit.
“California residents currently pay $46 per unit for community college courses. A California resident who enrolls in 12 units is considered a full-time student; that student would pay $46 x 12 units, or $552 per semester.”
Community college is good for some students but not others. Having been a by product of the junior college to a UC, I can see it’s value but for the high stat kid I would not suggest it as there are many college options for them. I’m a big believer in my kids’ attending a 4 year college to get the full experience, living in the dorms, joining clubs on campus, challenging themselves with academic peers and top notch curriculum, internships and research, study abroad opportunities, greek system (if they so choose), school spirit and pride, which really validates all of the hard work and effort they put in for four years of high school.
I feel I missed out on a lot of the above by attending a community college for 2 years but honestly I was an average “B” student in high school and did not have the work ethic and grades to go to a top ranked UC right out of HS.
Because California state higher education policy is to subsidize CCs more heavily and keep in-state CC tuition low, since it is less expensive (generally, not necessarily for every student) for both the student and the state when the student starts at a CC for lower division work before transferring to a UC or CSU for upper division work. This is in line with historic policy since 1960 that emphasized greater access to higher education for those from lower income families.
In contrast, Pennsylvania higher education policy is not all that friendly to students from lower income families, based on in-state financial aid and net price (from their net price calculators), resulting in relatively high levels of student loan debt for Pennsylvania residents.
@steffenberr PA state funding for education is abysmal, that’s why.
@Creekland yes, that is a huge difference from here. Our local PSU which is pretty off the radar is less than 3,000 total students while the local CC has over 13,000 full time students alone. I agree that a caliber school for a higher stat student is most likely the right choice, especially in the humanities. I talk to students over and over again, however, who bitterly regret going for that “experience”, especially STEM students. It all comes down to the amount of loans they’ve accrued and an awareness that the classes would have been as good at the CC (remember, they end up studying with the students from the CC junior and senior year). My own kids who are in high school are really not interested in going away to college - they are very millennial that way. Very different from how I fantasized about being away when I was that age. The idea of being bound to a roommate freshman year and horrible cafeteria food for four years is actually not that appealing for a lot of kids. My nephew just left school over it. He did great in his classes, had friends, just hated the dorm life. Is at CC now, probably dreading the day he has to deal with campus life again.
I also don’t see why a CC transfer student can’t do all of that. People transfer schools all the time and still do study abroad, clubs, the full campus experience. Our local CC just put in an LGBTQ center. They have a Shakespeare monologue event every year where students perform the monologues which any student can do. It’s actually way more lively in a “real college” way down there than the traditional 4-year residential “real” college where I am currently writing my Master’s thesis. It’s really more about looking at the particular opportunities available than CC vs. 4 year. If my daughter transfers to the local 4 year research ivy, she will already be in a tight cohort of people in the same major. The departments are deeply connected.
@CCtoAlaska And again, the difference is why I tell folks to know their area, their schools, and their kids. The vast majority of students heading to college from my school want the experience along with the degree. We talk with them about being sure to find affordable. They come back and share awesome stories about their lives and we enjoy seeing what they go on to do. Hearing about their post school lives is very rewarding.
However, there are some personalities that don’t care for the experience and there are some who just don’t have the grades to get accepted where they can get enough aid. It’s good that there options for everyone.
There are only two groups of graduates I hear negative college reports from - those who pick a school too low for their capabilities and those who acquired too much debt. Those are the things I caution against.
There are some who don’t care for their first choice school and end up transferring, but they usually get the match right on their second try and end up happy. The previous group goes through life wistful that they had made other decisions.
Also want to note these are just the college bound students. Not all students need to be college bound. Many head to trade schools, the military, or straight into jobs instead. There are tons of paths - all fine as long as it’s a good match for the student.
ETA: Some also go to the CC specifically for their 2 year programs - often various medical techs or nursing. That’s a fine path too. IMO, any path that gets the student happily to their adult self supporting successful (legal) life is a good path.
On flip side, my daughter played softball one year at a CC - everything was paid for. She then transferred to local CC to finish her core classes - she saved roughly $50k by doing this. She is a top student and did not get merit aid from a D3 school that she was originally going to play for. It didn’t make financial sense for her to commit and go there so she switched gears and targeted the CC schools. Now she has been accepted to two very good state schools (UT Austin being one of them), and will be attending one of them as a Junior majoring in Biochemistry. We have no regrets, and I will be going over the numbers with my son who is a senior this year to show him the COA at the school he so badly wants to go to. Going to let this be his decision but we will try to strongly suggest the CC route.