<p>2CarpeDiem: I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so what I am about to say has probably already been mentioned. While I agree with much of what you say here about making the most of your opportunities wherever you go to school, I will have to say that I believe the main attribute private high schools have over large public ones (in terms of getting into the Ivy's) is that 9 times out of 10, the private school GCs are on a first name basis with adcoms from all the schools post #139 lists. While I have no doubt that Boston Latin School graduates outstanding students every year, I also firmly believe that any small private school that sends as many as 26 of its graduating seniors to Harvard has a GC that is making personal phone calls to Harvard adcoms. You will not find public high school guidance counsellors doing this. That is why I am much more impressed with the student from a good public high school who manages an acceptance to Harvard--with no other circumstances involved (URM status; recruited athlete status; legacy; GC making the pitch)--only that he/she is an outstanding student/person in every way. In fact, I know of many parents who send their kids to small private schools for this very reason--that, in the end, they know that the GC will see to it that their kid gets into a "top" school.</p>
<p>Motivation is better than a good school.</p>
<p>No one has said it better than confidential.</p>
<p>Also, many universities have it in their charter that they must accept a certain number of students from the local town (I know this is true of Stanford and Princeton), and many urban universities accept people from the city to build community support. (not to mention that local schools have a disproportionate amount of children of faculty, alumni, etc) For instance, Princeton High School has 12 students going to Princeton this year for this very reason, and Palo Alto High School has a double digit figure going to Stanford. Penn is very friendly to Philly applicants, as well.</p>
<p>The proof is in how many are going to the local elite compared with the peers of that university. (26 Harvards vs. 3 MIT, 2 Yale, 2 Princeton)</p>
<p>There is always going to be someone who has an advantage, someone
with an easier hand they were dealt, get over it. A school could get
26 kids into Harvard but can't guarantee any of them success there or
in life. Its the applicants who deserve to be there that have the edge.
They have the motivation and work ethic it will take to be successful
there. Don't spend any more time thinking about the athletes, the
legacies, the local kids, the VIP's, because this is part of life. They
played their card and you played yours and theirs turned out to be
good enough to get admitted, fair or not. Life is hard and nobody ever said it was going to be fair!</p>
<p>Anon, there are also benefits to these students. UPenn admits from the City of Phildelphia are likely to have the city pick up the Stafford Loan portion of their education, which is equal to roughly $13k over 4 years. </p>
<p>I know this board has support for going "away" for school. But, when you have a highly selective school in your backyard, why not take advantage of the wealth of benefits that come with it?</p>
<p>BTW, I think most private schools are well worth the money. There are, of course, exceptions.</p>
<p>Admittedly, motivation is better than the quality of the school. However, that said, the school quality offer other advantages. My daughter is in a top rated high school that offers college institute courses in addition to all the AP offerings. She will graduate with at least 4 AP courses and 4 college institute coures taken in conjuction with our local junior college. While many colleges put limits on AP credit allowable, none, that I am aware of, limit credit from courses taken as part of the college institute since these are regular college courses taken with regular college professors. This is a significant advantage. My daughter might be able to place out of as many as 7 or even 8 courses, depending on her AP test scores. </p>
<p>There is, however, two MAJOR downsides to attending a very good school. The first is that some colleges use rankings in admission. Getting into the top 10% at some schools is a LOT easier than getting into the top 10% in schools that have high acheivers and SAT scores. </p>
<p>Secondly, many colleges don't want to take too many from a public school Thus, you limit your chances based on others who may be applying.</p>
<p>For example, based on actual stats, to get admitted to Brown from our high school takes about 1525 on the SAT. No one got admitted with less. However, from other high schools, I have heard that a number of kids got admitted with lower scores. The minimum threshold at other less selective high schools seems to be around 1425. This is a big difference. </p>
<p>In fact, there was an article in the Washington Post that noted that kids from top magnet programs had a harder time getting accepted into top schools. even with slighter better GPAs and SATs than those from other schools. This is something to think about.</p>
<p>I will be attending NCSSM in August and I think its one of the top high schools. (yeah biased I know)
But they've sent the most semifinalists to the Siemmons Westinghouse Competition in past years and have a rather strong Math/Science program.</p>
<p>I was reading a couple of the posts above about motivation vs. quality school.
I think that it is very important to have motivation, but attending a quality school also helps the motivation.</p>
<p>Let's say a student is currently at a mediocre high school and at the top of his/her class. Other students probably look towards that student for help, etc. So that student is always pumping out his/her ideas for other people, but never gets to hear opinions from others because he/she is the top.
Personally, if that student gets accepted to a top school, he/she should take the chance because he/she will be surrounded by a better group of peers. He/she might not be the top of his/her class anymore, but he/she will learn more surrounded by top notch students. He/she will finally hear valuable ideas from others and push his/herself harder to learn with the best.</p>
<p>taxguy: Since you're from Maryland, I'm sure you've heard of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Northern VA. </p>
<p>I too will be able to place out of many classes, 11 hopefully after senior year. I am encouraging the students who do not have the fate of being in a top high school because opportunity is endless for them also.</p>
<p>Yes there is a significant difficulty in going to a good school from a competitive magnet. TJ is ranked #1 by MIT with 14 going this year(next highest is 3 from a school), but even the MIT admissions officer came to our school and told us that even though MIT believed they should be taking more kids from TJ, that could not be possible because of diversification. When 75% or higher of your school applys to at least 1 IVY, you realize that you have more inner competition with the kids in your school rather than the outsiders.</p>
<p>I took 2 APs as a sophomore, 3 APs currently WITH 2 Post-AP classes(Aritificial intellegence, Supercomputing), and planning to take 4 APs next year with mentorship at Naval Research Laboratory. All of this puts me in the running with all the other kids in my school who are doing either just as much or are really good at a sport, math team, computer team, etc. Academic darwinism at its finest.</p>
<p>Confidential, you are proving my point. Going to a top high school actually can be detrimental to getting into top tier schools. Most parents and kids rarely understand this until it is too late. </p>
<p>Obviously you have very motivated kids at schools like TJHST. This certainly help in motivating everyone, which may be worth the more limiting access to top ivy school. However, it is sadly a problem.</p>
<p>Jack wrote:</p>
<p>"In fact, I know of many parents who send their kids to small private schools for this very reason--that, in the end, they know that the GC will see to it that their kid gets into a "top" school."</p>
<p>Jack, I don't think it works this way. In the end, a GC can only do so much. If a private school student comes with the full package (grades, ECs, SAT scores, etc) then the GC can "tip" the student by really helping to put together a nicely packaged application to show off that student's best qualities. But, no GC can work miracles without having a student of the best quality. And, I don't think any private school GC would ask a selective college for the "favor" of admitting a less qualified candidate. They have too many top achievers that they're trying to work with....and too many years down the line to repeat the process.</p>
<p>These GCs don't have such tunnel vision that they lay themselves on the line for a student who doesn't have the potential to succeed. </p>
<p>Respectfully, I disagree with your assumptions about private school GCs.</p>
<p>"For example, based on actual stats, to get admitted to Brown from our high school takes about 1525 on the SAT. No one got admitted with less. However, from other high schools, I have heard that a number of kids got admitted with lower scores. The minimum threshold at other less selective high schools seems to be around 1425. This is a big difference. "</p>
<p>Could this have anything to do with sheer number of applicants vs. class size at the High School? </p>
<p>As an example, let's say a small private school has a graduating class size of 100. Let's say 20 of those kids apply to Brown. Does Brown really want to take all 20? No, Brown wants to the top of this pool, so they take 3. Because this was a small private school with well prepared students, they're expected to be better prepared for the SAT than their public school counterparts. So, the average SAT score of the 3 admitted students will be high.</p>
<p>Now, assueme that the local public school has a graduating class of 500. Let's assume that 50 apply to Brown. No, all 50 will not be admitted. But, if this school is competitive, 10 might be admitted. Brown can dig a little deeper into this applicant pool (admitting those with slightly lower scores) because there were more of them - giving a wider range of scores.</p>
<p>momsdream: I think you misunderstand my point. Let me reiterate that I am confident that the private high school student "comes with the full package (grades, EC's SAT scores, etc)." I also agree with you that "no private school GC would ask a selective college....of admitting a less qualified candidate." Agree completely. My point was that I believe equally qualified candidates-- who are attending large public schools-- do not have the benefit of a personal phone call placed by a GC. I know for a fact that there is "at least" one private high school in Manhattan that managed to get nearly 10% of its senior class into Harvard EA--no small feat. And while I have no doubt these students are qualified and will, most likely, do well at Harvard (or anywhere), I also know that the GC at this private high school was a former admissions officer at Harvard. I do believe this worthwhile connection "tips" these kids w/regard to a Harvard EA admission. Once again, most public high schools--no matter how good they are, and no matter how brilliant the students--do not have that sort of connection. And I firmly believe that sort of connection makes a big difference, especially when you are talking about students of equal caliber. </p>
<p>Once again, I am NOT saying the students aren't qualified, nor am I saying the GC is lying about the qualities of his or her students. I am saying that having that personal connection will make a difference. </p>
<p>Respectfully, to think otherwise--in this college admissions business-- is naive.</p>
<p>I have not been following this discussion closely, but popped in this morning and have read this last page. I have to correct an inaccurate statement here (unless I misunderstood completely...?):
13 students in my son's senior class of 123 were accepted at MIT for the fall and 7 will be attending. "Next highest..." what? </p>
<p>(Sorry for any threadjack here, but if these numbers are important, it is also important to be sure they are accurate and in context.)</p>
<p>Speaking of private high schools, if you check the stats on ivy league and top LAC admissions from various high schools, many of the top private high schools send a higher percentage of their kids to top schools than that of most public schools even compared to that of magnet schools. Just go to the private high school web sites and check this out.</p>
<p>There may be many reasons: tougher entrance for some private high schools and more academic rigor in the private high schools. However, it could also be something else: Private high schools are primarily made up of kids from wealthy parents. When these kids apply to colleges, they probably won't need financial aid! Colleges aren't stupid, for the most part, and are aware of this fact. In fact, one of the trustees of Yale noted this fact to me!</p>
<p>Jack, I did misunderstand your post. I was misled by your reference to the reason why parents would send their kids to a private school. Unless the kids enter the private school in 11th or 12th grade, these parents would have no idea whether or not their GC would be able to "see to" anything. If I decide on a private HS, I'm making that decision when my child is in 8th grade. At that point, I really don't know what he'll look like in 12th grade - I can only hope. Thus, to choose that school with the assumption that the GC will "see to it" is assuming that my kid will fit a specific mold 4 years later. Those parents haven't accounted for the growth and development (or lack thereof) that will take place during HS. </p>
<p>Any parent who selects a school based on it's ability to get their child into a highly selective college is naive, IMHO.....and is setting themselves up for disappointment.</p>
<p>BTW, I agree with you about the private school GCs being on first name basis with adcoms....as we had the very experience when visiting a highly selective school and hearing the adcom speak of calling "(first name of my son's GC)" if he had any questions about the transcript (after we asked how he handles GPAs that aren't calculated by the HS)</p>
<p>momsdream: Well, I do know many parents who send their kids to private schools, in large part, because of the personal attention the GC/advisors will give to the college application process. I know many that send them to specific private middle schools because they feed into specific private high schools that feed into the Ivy's. It's a process started early on in many cities (beginning, really, as early as kindergarten). Those caricatures of Manhattan parents who are scrambling to get their babies on waiting lists at highly selective pre-schools--well, like any caricature, that's based on truth. I also know parents who pull their kids from competitive and academically rigorous public high schools in the 10th or 11th grades--sometimes even the lasts year-- and send them to less rigorous public high schools across town, so that the kid will have a higher class rank at the 'lesser' school. Bizarre, I know, but there you have it.</p>
<p>taxguy-</p>
<p>Do you mean that the private colleges aren't recruiting the public school kids? Or, do you mean that the private colleges are denying them admission?</p>
<p>"Bizarre, I know, but there you have it."</p>
<p>Bizarre....and SAD! I feel badly for those kids.....yanked this way and that so that their parents can feel validated. I do hear/read about this happening in NYC with the preschools. I wonder how these parents feel when their kids turn 21 and they realize they've missed best part of their children's path through childhood because they were so focused on the end result.</p>
<p>Momsdream: They are recruiting public school kids. I go to a magnet PUBLIC school as I previously mentioned before, recognized as one of the top if not the top school in the nation. Admissions officers have come to our school and told us directly that if they could have it there way they would take twice as many applicants from our school. However due to diversification they do not. Wherever students get admitted from my school they naturally fit in the top 25% of that school. This just shows that qualified kids at my school who might be in the top 50% of the accepted pool do not get accepted because there are enough students from my school who are in the top 25% of that pool.</p>
<p>Kind of confusing. However in the end it all works out, and plus UVA is a good fallback for all of us. They continue to promise to take a majority of us since we're in state(This year I don't believe anyone got rejected who had over a 3.7 GPA). Thats about 250 acceptance letters right there out of those who applied to UVA.</p>
<p>taxguy
[quote]
While many colleges put limits on AP credit allowable, none, that I am aware of, limit credit from courses taken as part of the college institute since these are regular college courses taken with regular college professors.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many, many colleges do not accept "college clesses taken while in high school" or "counted towards high school diploma" AT ALL!</p>
<p>Two of the colleges that accepted my S have this restriction; and of course, he had to choose one of them. :)</p>