Hi-I’m a HS senior and I’m applying for a BM in vocal performance (soprano) next fall. I am mostly applying to LACs and universities with good music programs. Here’s my list at the moment: Vanderbilt, Northwestern, St. Olaf, USC, Carnegie Melon, Miami Frost, Bucknell, UNC Chapel Hill, Boston Conservatory. My maybe schools are Ithaca, Tulane, and Vassar (have to look into these more). In terms of academics, I have a 31 ACT (but I’m retaking it in the fall-science score was low) and my GPA is a 3.5 but I go to a hardcore rigorous school, and colleges know of my school and how difficult it is. A 3.5 at my school would probably equal about a 3.9 at an average high school. First of all, is this a good list in terms of acceptance rates and safeties? And is 9 a good number or should I apply to more (or fewer)? I know it’s really unpredictable and difficult to get into schools for voice. Thanks!
There is no magic number. There are plenty of private and public U’s with good voice programs.
Just a random observation but your list is “all over the place” in terms of region and quality. . Since you will need to pay for grad school eventually—do you have or need a financial safety? Do you have a feel to where you are in the talent pool? Are any of these public schools “in state” for you? (For example you have Tulane, but the school right next door to Tulane (Loyola) has a much better and more comprehensive voice program.) Auditions are expensive and time consuming so you might consider focusing on a more consistent fit according to your own needs.
I don’t really need to have a financial safety, and I live in DC so none of these are in state.
So if money is no object you still might want to focus on fit in general.
What has drawn you to those schools? Have you had a chance to explore the teachers in those schools? Your stats are not going to be as important as your audition and you will want a teacher that works well with you.
I’ve visited a couple, and mostly online research. I know the teachers at Boco and st olaf. A lot of the decision for me is the environment and setting, although I’m not exactly sure what the ideal region is for me. But I think all these schools have great music programs
Of course there is not magic number. If money and time are no consideration, you can apply to tons of schools. However you will most likely run up against the element of TIME. Even for the pre-screening, it’s hard to get it all done. IMHO, which may be wrong, I think around 8 is a good number if you are being smart about your choices. You can definitely go up a few or down a few depending how many stretch/safety schools there are.
It is important to be a bit strategic as the time crunch will most likely come. It is also important that you talk with your current voice teachers (private - if you have one - and at school) to be sure you are applying to the right level of schools so you don’t waste time. If St. Olaf and Boco have said you would be a potential fit that means their schools and ones like it are a good fit and a good place to focus.
For what it’s worth, my D applied to 7 schools but 9 programs for undergrad (she was also considering MT so VP and MT at some schools). She only applied to 3 VP programs. One safety and 2 not. However her teachers indicated a high chance at 2 of the schools - the other they just weren’t as familiar with. She got live auditions and acceptances at all 3.
BUT the bigger issue comes in the winter when you have to audition. She did live auditions for both undergrad (VP & MT) and recently grad at 5 schools (4 were out of her area so she traveled and 1 was her school or in her city so no travel required). Auditions, in general, are from late January to early March so there are only so many weekends to travel. If you travel every weekend you stand the chance of being worn out. For example, USC is going to be a weekend trip. Frost will be a weekend trip. Maybe you could do Northwestern and St. Olaf on the same weekend - but maybe not due to their auditions weekend. Maybe one east coast weekend. Auditioning throughout the nation is fine but it can be tough.
So I would recommend thinking a bit more strategic if you are looking to narrow your choices. You do seem to have a lot of schools. Be sure you are checking music requirements NOW. Is one school really worth their extra song requirement? Are their 5 schools you like with the same requirements? You want to be working on your music now not in Dec.
If you are applying to the right level of school (and yes you have to have faith in what teachers tell you and not let doubt and fear take over) you will most likely pass most of the pre-screenings. So you apply to 8 schools, pass 8, 7 or 6 pre-screenings. Then how to travel to 6, 7 or 8! schools in 6 or 7 weeks? If you apply to 13 schools and pass 10, 11 or 12 pre-screening, is that a smart use of time? You will have to cull the list at some point.
I hope this helps.
The answer on the number of schools to apply to and where IMO should be centered around the program and the teacher. With VP, for example, from conversations with those in ‘the know’ (I am familiar with instrumental,not voice), the teacher is critical, but there also are concerns as an UG with performance opportunities. Some VP schools have the reputation that grad students get most of the opportunities, so that could be a concern for UG along with a quality teacher. Music performance is very different than academic studies, the student/teach relationship is critical, and it isn’t a one size fits all, whereas you can learn calculus just about anywhere.
One of the things I would discourage you from is thinking of schools for music performance as ‘safeties’, there are a lot of music schools where it is very easy to get in, where if you are halfway decent, you would get in, but what kind of program is that? What kind of teachers do they have? The fact is that music performance is a crap shoot, you can get into Juilliard and get rejected from B school of music, so the key is find programs you like, where you feel the teacher and the program will work for you, and apply to those schools. It is important to talk to current teacher(s) about recommendations for a teacher to study with, but I also highly recommend, if you can, trying to visit the schools and do sample lessons with the teachers, to see if you can work with them. Another factor to think of is how many teachers does the program have? If you apply to a program with one teacher, or maybe 2, what happens if you go there, and find out the teacher isn’t a match? You may want a program that is both solid and has a number of teachers, to give you options in case the teacher you select doesn’t work out.
I think if you focus on the program/teacher the number will end up coming naturally. Note that there is nothing wrong with having ‘reach schools’ (let’s say Juilliard for arguments sake) if you feel that is a stretch based on where you are, and then ‘solid prospects’, but I question the idea of having a school you think you can get into that is ‘easy’ or assured, based on that alone (if there is a program with a teacher you think will stretch you, that otherwise is less competitive as a program, that would be more a ‘solid’ choice).
Again, this is different than academic studies, because of the nature of teaching, just getting into a VP program doesn’t mean it will be good for you. One of the things to keep in mind is how competitive VP is, how hard it is to get into a top grad program, and that it isn’t the same thing necessarily as going to a ‘safety school’ with academic study, then getting into a great grad school, with music so much is predicated on the teacher that not just any teacher will do. The other thing to keep in mind is that academics will play little role in your admission to a VP program (if you had terrible grades/scores it could hurt you getting into a music school in a university or LAC, but academics means pretty much zero with the music side) and that that will be all about the audition.
My son took it to an extreme when he applied to music schools (he is instrumental, not voice), he applied only to a small handful of schools he thought would work for him, and basically made the decision that if he wasn’t good enough to get into any of them, he would take a gap year and try the next year, and his thought was why would he go to a program that he felt wouldn’t drive him forward? Obviously, there probably were programs out there that might have worked for him, but in the end you need to make the decision based on those parameters. I also would discourage you from applying to too many, first because it is likely you wouldn’t get to know the teachers in all those programs and would be applying blind, and secondly, because auditioning is a pain in the neck, trying to audition at 12 schools can be a logistics nightmare and you would be exhausted, so you might do better with 6 or 7 programs you feel work for you.
I agree on the safety comment - and thought it would probably draw some discussion. There really is no safety…but Juilliard or Curtis compared to a more regional school with a strong music program are different. Still you never know, your the regional school could pass you up and Juilliard take you. Your list does have variety in levels with all still being strong.
Looking at teachers is very, very important but can be tricky in undergrad. It can be hard to form relationships and I won’t discourage you from applying to a school if you aren’t able to meet or form relationships. My D didn’t have relationships and it worked. Still schools were you have a relationship should be prioritized. It is the ideal.
Sorry for the typos.
I love the idea of applying to places that would be viewed as fitting, or challenging, the student. The idea of taking a gap year versus settling for a safety is neat as well. I know I have asked or hinted at this before, but how would one hope to learn which 5-8 instructors could be the best fit? Perhaps a testament to my effort/ability, but I still barely have an info on which instructors would be considered a good fit. Is it that the circles of instruction are better known in certain regions of the country, or should one go out (to where) and mix it up and learn who is who? I have seen the analysis that shows if you want to have gotten into a professional orchestra, IU Jacob can’t hurt. Here is an example - we know a jazz bass player who recommends the instructor at Memphis, maybe a golden find in a smaller setting - even with this heads-up, would you (A) go research some statistics of past students, etc. or (B) go visit him and see how you feel about it?
I don’t think you can beat visiting a school in person, attending a few classes, meeting the teacher and taking a lesson. Even after doing some research – studying the school’s website, watching a LOT of youtube videos of performances by the school’s ensembles, faculty groups, the teacher(s), etc. – our in-person experience was always a bit of a surprise. The visits were also a really good way of exploring the kind of environments S likes, is comfortable in, or not. Again, some surprises there, even though we live in a college town and thought he “knew”. Two schools crossed off the list based on the visits, and one became a favorite based on the lesson.
At one school, the teacher suggest he might like to also have a lesson with one of his grad students as well, and my S really enjoyed that and felt he got some great insight about the teacher.
Also, talk to other students. Musicians that my S used to play with over the last few years are now in college and he’s had the opportunity to ask them what they think of the programs, teachers, etc. He’s been busking this summer with some kids home for the summer and asking them about schools (and I’ve realized that the questions I would ask, as a parent, aren’t what he asks.) One school added and a confirmation that one of the schools crossed off above was the right decision.
Jazz is a little different in that almost all of the teachers are still performing professionals and a lot of their work is accessible on youtube or the like. They all seem to have a stack of CD’s in their offices and happy to give prospective students a copy. Compatible style is important. They’re also very tightly networked and surprisingly accessible. One musician my S met at Wooten Woods offered to call my S’s favorite saxophonist for a lesson while we were in NYC. (Thinking just about bassists, my S has played with, in a small masterclass setting, Victor Wooten, Christian McBride, John Clayton, Marion Hayden and Rodney Whitaker; all in the last year – these bassists are all really interested in teaching up-and-coming young musicians.)
Oh, almost forgot… we also met Reggie Workman at The New School, who invited us to sit in on his combo class.
but how would one hope to learn which 5-8 instructors could be the best fit?
Yes, this is the issue for some people (or maybe many?) particularly in undergrad. How do you get to know teachers at all these schools. It is why I made the comment about still applying to schools that fill like a good fit after research even without relationships. I can only comment on voice however.
I won’t comment on the process of getting to know teachers bc others have done that well by @ScreenName48105 . It is the ideal. But my concern is always that some talented students may not be able be able to visit many schools for whatever reason (money, time, parental support). I would hate to see students not apply bc they hadn’t formed a relationship or think they are at a great disadvantage and give up. My D did not have any relationships prior to undergrad and she was accepted at all VP programs.
However my daughter did a lot of “work” at home. Private voice lessons, performances etc. She had been performing consistently in theatre and voice since a young age. She was very prepared for her pre-screenings and auditions. So if you can’t visit all schools and form relationships, just be sure you are working hard at home.
A good fit for my D was based on recommendations from her private voice and high school choir teachers…and of course things like…size of campus, number of hip restaurants, how cute the boys helping at the audition were…
Again my opinion based on our experience.
Man…more typos…haha
One thing I wanted to stress, which I don’t think I did clearly, is that teachers are much more approachable than you might think. Even the legendary ones. At least in jazz. There’s still a strong apprenticeship tradition in jazz, which I think makes for different student-teacher relationships.
What are the possible reasons that a visit might cross an otherwise thought-to-be-alright college off the list?
It seems like the ideal formula would be 10-12 initial visits followed by 6-8 auditions, which is expensive. I am curious to know the factors in the visit that make the college move up or down the list, and then think about if these factors can be learned beforehand.
GoForth, I don’t know the jazz world. But in answer to your question “how would one hope to learn which 5-8 instructors could be the best fit?”, in the much of the instrumental world and I believe voice also, many students do travel to visit recommended instructors - taking “trial lessons” or sometimes just meeting with the teacher and talking to get a sense of personality and fit. Yes, this is expensive - travel and potential cost of the lesson. Some such visits are done junior year, others fall of senior and sometimes a lesson is set up at the time of the audition. For others, “trial lessons” come after acceptances before a decision is made.
Other ways to gauge fit - advice of current teacher if that teacher has sufficient knowledge, attendance at summer camps or workshops taught by a teacher of interest, word of mouth from other student musicians with experience- if you repeatedly hear the same stories there’s probably some truth. I would talk to the widest circle of people possible - recognizing, of course, that you will have to weigh any information according to your assessment of the source. Checking the success and whereabouts of former students is also a good idea although this may not tell you if your student will also be successful with this teacher or if there might have been similar results with another.
Be wary of published rankings or analysis - these are often truly laughable for anyone who has direct knowledge of the field.
Then, after all this research and decision making, remember that teachers retire, die and leave to teach at different institutions. It happened to me as an undergrad and one of my kids. Life moves on - the best thing can be that as a student hits college and matures, he begins to take things in from many sources as well as recognizing more about his own playing. Not that a good teacher and match aren’t important, they are, but there are often multiple instructors that can fit a “best” or “good” fit criteria.
We did not know all of this before DD applied. We selected a range of options based on research, help from these friendly folks who were a little ahead of us re teachers and atmosphere, and her teacher recommendations. We did some visits without lessons and eliminated a couple that way. After auditoins and acceptances DD visited the top 3 contenders and had lessons then. It was a very different experience since after acceptance they are courting the singer instead of the other way around. Her final selection was not her original first choice due to finances but ended up being a great fit and she would not have traded the experience for her original choice. She ended up doing 6-7 auditions including 2 in the fall that were rolling admission. She droppped one. It was ncie to have a saftey acceptance before Christmas. It would be hard to schedule many more auditons than that.