<p>@mathyone,
It is interesting to read your comments on prepping for the test. My D’s school has around 7.5% senior to be NMSF. But probably not many times of that 7.5% students actually prep for the test. I was always surprised that I could keep renewing those prep books from public library, where it does not have too many copies, over and over again for the whole year. Perhaps many students are even more serious and purchased their own prep books like you . 
Anyway, test preparation is actually a big business in town. Parents in my area seems willing to pay a lot for the test prep. If I count the numbers of classes and number of students per class, perhaps half of the students in town signed up for 1 prep class in average. Of course some students will go to 2 or 3 prep classes. I guess those can afford those classes, they will get their own books instead of checking out from the library.
As about test prep for 8th grader. I don’t think going through the prep books is a good approach although I give some of those question to my 8th grader from time to time. But I help my 8th grader to build up her vocab from even earlier on. Doing math test that they don’t have the skill can be very discouraging and should be avoided until they are in high school. My older daughter actually started preparing for the exam only after sophomore year (although she has been working on vocab since middle school).</p>
<p>My school gave little effort to getting its students good scores. Supposedly some of the proctors told their students that the test wouldn’t matter. We did have a prep class, but only 100 out of 800-something seniors were even told about it. I was one, I enrolled because my parents made me, I didn’t pay attention except to correct the teacher, and I became an NMSF (and later NMF) anyway.</p>
<p>At my daughter’s high school, all sophomores and juniors are required to take the PSAT. (This is a little odd, in my opinion, for a school where 1/3 of the students aren’t even headed to a 4 year college.) Despite this, some of the kids who I believe might have qualified don’t. My daughter thinks, of the students she thought had any chance, maybe 10 of them prepped, and only a few of them made it. There was at least one friend who she thought had a good chance but didn’t prep and didn’t make it. I felt that my daughter should be able to qualify, so I got her a PSAT test prep book and told her to work through it the summer before her sophomore year. It didn’t really need to be that early, but since she had to take the PSAT a year early anyhow, I thought a serious prep would make the practice PSAT more informative. The vast majority of her prep time was spent on verbal sections/vocab because she is a very strong math student. (although she did have to review the math because it was a long time ago for her). The following summer, she prepped again, using an SAT book this time. First, to keep up her score, review the math, practice those essays. And secondly, this time was more about prepping for the SAT. My thinking is that for students who are competitive for national merit, it makes sense to prep well and just take care of both tests in the fall of junior year. After the second prep, she got the exact same PSAT score. More prep really didn’t help. Her SAT scores were also very comparable. The material on these tests really isn’t that difficult for a top high school student. It becomes more about how accurately you can work within the time limits. I think a careful sort of person, provided they are a fast reader, will do better than the person who just tends to make more errors as they work. She didn’t make many errors in these tests, but the few she did were nearly all careless, and more study just wouldn’t have helped.</p>
<p>Had she started several years earlier, I am sure she would have scored just about the same.</p>
<p>My D took her first PSAT at 10th grade as a trial. The school counselor kind of recommend that but not many students actually signed up as there is a fee. For 11th grade, the school signed up for everybody. My D took the first one pretty much unprepared as I just found out about that a couple weeks before the test at a school meeting. It is good that it does not count for anything and she can get a baseline score. She scored 35 point higher a year later after preparing for SAT.</p>
<p>@billscho, we used one psat book and one sat book. Total cost about $30, for PSAT and SAT for 2 kids. For us, well worth the cost for the convenience of not having to deal with years of library due dates and late fines. Of course you can get such books for free at the library and I would advise any low-income family that it is not necessary to spend money on test prep classes (or on books) to get the national merit scholarship. We did not use any classes. My feeling about those classes is that for top students they probably would waste a lot of time hearing things they already know. In retrospect, and next time around, I would probably also buy or check out the college board’s official SAT prep book (I seem to remember there is such a book and that one is pricier), for the extra practice tests, but I kind of forgot about that this time around, and my daughter didn’t run out of material with the books she had. Anyway, I have no complaints. There was never more than one question on any of 3 tests she took which she got wrong for lack of knowledge. And you can’t fix careless with test prep books.</p>
<p>D is a junior at a highly rated public high school in AZ. The guidance dept. sent the counselors around to the junior’s social studies classes to talk about the PSAT. The counselor who came to D’s APUSH class (which of course had the most high achieving, college bound students in it) told them there would be a “Practice SAT” on Oct. 19. He insisted it was a 4 hour test. D had taken it as a sophomore, as had a bunch of the other kids. They tried to politely correct the counselor but he cut them off.</p>
<p>I think it’s overkill to start prepping a 7th or 8th grader. But I definitely think it’s good to take the test as a sophomore to see where your weaknesses are and whether you’re in striking distance of your state’s National Merit cutoff. I’m surprised and disappointed that my public high school doesn’t do a better job of pushing the PSAT on sophomores and then identifying the high scoring sophomores and giving them further encouragement.</p>
<p>We could tell from D’s sophomore score sheet that her weakest area was math. D was on the advanced math track (currently in AP Calc BC), and she needed to go back and review concepts from Algebra and Geometry. We got her a couple of practice SAT math books from Amazon, and an SAT vocab book (using the recommendations for SAT prep books from CC). She felt very confident about the PSAT and is scheduled to take the SAT on Dec. 7.</p>
<p>At my school, only juniors took the PSAT, and it wasn’t considered a big deal. No one prepped for it. First, it’s because almost no one takes the SAT (always ACT). Second, there’s generally about 1 NMF per year in a class of about 300. They don’t even mention NM as a possibility before you take it, and the only reason I knew about it is because my brother got Commended 2 years previously.
I did zero prep and ended up with NMF, but I was the only one my year. I feel like other students might have been able to if it were emphasized, but my school had a very diverse population, so it wasn’t a top priority, I guess. (It’s a public school that offers everything from auto mechanics to the IB diploma.) It seems somewhat unfair to me that you can have such disparate opportunities for students depending on what the schools tell them about, but what exactly can be done about it?</p>
<p>The high school just to the west of us is a Title 1 school. While waiting for a haircut at the neighborhood hair salon, I ran into a mom with kids there. She mentioned that their school had received a grant to pay for all the juniors and sophomores to take the PSAT. I don’t know where the grant came from, but it sounded like a great idea because you never hear of any NMF’s coming from that high school, even though it’s a school of over 2000 kids. Our high school is the same size and had 14 (and could have had more, in my opinion, if the school did a better job promoting it). The local small private prep school had 26 NMF’s this year.</p>
<p>Although my D’s school has over 30 NMF per year, the school does not really promote the PSAT except for signing up all Juniors for the test. I guess the main reason is the lack of scholarship sponsors in the region that only around 1/3 of the NMF actually get any scholarship at the end including those sponsored by schools or the $2500. It is more an award title than actual scholarship. The state used to have another merit scholarship based on standardized test on one specific day for Junior just like PSAT, but is has been cancelled a couple years ago as the state is running out of money. That test used to be the focus of juniors as more students got money out of it. Now it is long gone.</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you for your responses. I really find this interesting and would like to share a few thoughts.</p>
<p>I would like to respond to a couple of comments and then perhaps make a couple of observations.</p>
<p>Mathyone said: “Just want to add, for those of you asking about 7th graders, do you really think it’s in the best interest of your child to have them spend 4-5 years prepping for this test?”</p>
<p>To which I respond, that fifth- and sixth-graders will take the Explore test as part of a talent search if they are in the top five or ten percent nationally. They will then take the ACT (or SAT) in the seventh grade. Yes, I absolutely believe kids should “prep” for the seventh-grade test, although unless you are strict they may not do very much. But any prep helps.</p>
<p>Many of the (mostly math) questions that kids are likely to miss on these tests are not on things they haven’t been taught yet. They are on things the kids have mastered but forgotten. So a review helps. And I don’t see it as just reviewing; I see it as actual learning (or relearning).</p>
<p>In my state, students are required to score a 30 on the ACT to dual enroll before their junior year. That means they have to score a 30 the summer after their eighth-grade year. How can they do this without at least some prep?</p>
<p>Finally, I keep hearing people say that no real scholarship money is attached to the award. Ole Miss, Kentucky, Alabama, Oklahoma and many others offer free- or almost-free-rides to NMFs. These students will enroll in an honors college, live in an honors dorm, take small-enrollment honors classes, and so forth. The average ACT will be more than 30, putting these honors colleges on a par with all but perhaps a half-dozen super-elite schools.</p>
<p>I have a nephew whose educational trust fund would have allowed him to go to school anywhere in the U.S. He’s at Georgia Tech on an almost-full ride, and his fund is actually GROWING. He will graduate with between 100 and 200K which he will be able to use as he chooses, likely buying a house. These choices face every student. Those who choose to graduate with $100,000 in debt essentially are taking on a home mortgage with no home. So which would you rather have, a free house or a mountain of debt and no house.</p>
<p>Let me be clear, as a goal NMF is simply not reasonable for 90-95 percent of students. But I do think those who have a chance should be made aware of it, so that they might be encouraged to review and prepare.</p>
<p>Changing the subject somewhat, but my son’s school is 40 percent black. Of the 12 NMSF, none are black, which is understandable to anyone who understands racial gaps in test scores. But there is not a single Achievement Scholar. I asked and was told that, “A lot of these kids don’t check the box that says they want to be considered.” Well, why isn’t anyone telling them to check the box? Why isn’t anyone finding blacks who are above the 75th percentile on normed tests and encouraging them to improve their skills? It bothers me. (And trust me, I am not a liberal, but I want people from our community to do well).</p>
<p>Oh, I couldn’t agree more that the PSAT and the potential rewards of doing well should be better explained to students. Your school should be explaining to the kids who qualify why they might want to check that box.</p>
<p>"Many of the (mostly math) questions that kids are likely to miss on these tests are not on things they haven’t been taught yet. They are on things the kids have mastered but forgotten. " Really? The college board says that the SAT covers algbra1, geometry, and the first semester of algebra2. Your middle school must be very advanced indeed if your 7th graders have already learned all of this–and learned it so long ago that they’ve already forgotten it and need to review? Many middle schools don’t even offer algebra1 until 8th grade. </p>
<p>“In my state, students are required to score a 30 on the ACT to dual enroll before their junior year. That means they have to score a 30 the summer after their eighth-grade year.” If they want to take dual college courses as a freshman in high school. Not too many kids are doing that, though. If the student needs to test at a young age in order to enroll in some type of advanced program they are otherwise qualified for, then it makes sense to prepare for the test. </p>
<p>But the vast majority of students don’t need to take these tests for anything but college applications, and in my opinion, trying to do tests they aren’t prepared for will just create anxious middle schoolers. </p>
<p>I’ve seen a couple of very anxious-sounding kids posting here saying that they are already taking SAT/ACT in 9th grade (for college application purposes), and sounding as though they expect to spend the next 3 years of their life studying, taking, retaking these tests. I think that’s kind of sad. At a college info session I attended, the admissions officer said they get applications from kids who could list taking the SAT as an extracurricular activity. He clearly didn’t think too much of those applicants.</p>
<p>What is the purpose/benefit of the talent search?</p>
<p>I do agree preparing for the standardized tests are important, but putting too much emphasis on it may indicate a mentality issue. There are many kids getting good ACT/SAT scores but with not so great GPA. That is going to hurt their chance. I think only the summer before junior is essential for test prep.</p>
<p>I have two D’s, one now a junior and one in 8th grade. Both of them were given the opportunity to take the PSAT starting in 7th grade. Both did that, but neither of them studied for it and I would never want them to. </p>
<p>JuniorD prepped for the PSAT this year by prepping for the SAT which she took earlier in October. Her school always has a fair amount of NMSF (this year tied for the most in the state), but I think it’s because the parents are savvy about it. The school does not prep the kids and puts very little emphasis on it. I think D had just one other friend who did any prep at all.</p>
<p>I’m just not understanding why a school would encourage 7th graders to enter an 11th grade scholarship competition which the school hasn’t prepared them for, and which the rules don’t allow them to win, no matter how well they do. But I also don’t understand why people would sit for such a test without bothering to prepare. If you just want to get an idea where you stand and what to study, you can do that easily enough with a practice test.</p>
<p>When I was a kid, I had a friend, a typical honor student, not extraordinary, whose parent (a high school AP teacher) thought it was a great idea to make her prepare for the SAT starting in 7th grade. This made my friend stressed. What it didn’t make her was an NMSF. That is the only data I have for the OP. No one else I know started prepping anywhere near that early.</p>
<p>There are plenty of age-appropriate ways to help your middle school child succeed on the SAT type tests. Being in a school math team or club, reading lots of high quality books (you’d be surprised how many good students don’t read at all…), entering writing competitions, working on a school’s literary magazine, writing the screenplay for a film project, will all strengthen your child’s skills and allow your child to happily interact with intellectual peers at their school while sparing them the drudgery of those test prep books and the stress of years of parental pressure about that one test.</p>
<p>I can’t speak for others but I teach my kids math at their own pace. So far the two that have taken the PSAT in 8th grade completed Algebra and most of Geometry before taking the PSAT. S that took the PSAT this year in 8th grade said there was only one math question he skipped. </p>
<p>My kids don’t take the PSAT in 8th grade for National Merit, they take it for high school applications. D got a 189 in 8th grade when she took the PSAT so we must have covered a good bit of the content prior to 8th grade. I’m sure they are many others that are academically ready to take the PSAT in 8th grade too. </p>
<p>Just because you take the PSAT in in 8th grade doesn’t mean you are spending your life prepping for a test.</p>
<p>That’s true. I know some programs or high schools use these tests for admissions purposes. But the OP was originally asking about starting to prep kids in middle school and working for years with the purpose of qualifying for NMSF in 11th grade. The OP originally was contemplating that a kid in the 94th percentile might be able to train for years and perform at the 99+ percentile required for NMSF. Now I’m not exactly sure what the OP meant by 94th percentile–an SAT score at the 94th percentile of seniors (subscores around 680) and that would already be in 99th percentile for 7th graders, or an SAT score at the 94th percentile of 7th grade test takers (subscores around 560), around 70th percentile of seniors. (According to the refs I found: <a href=“http://tip.duke.edu/downloads/ts/7/summary.pdf[/url]”>http://tip.duke.edu/downloads/ts/7/summary.pdf</a> and <a href=“http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-2013.pdf[/url]”>http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-2013.pdf</a>)</p>
<p>I don’t know if anyone has released any info showing how the same group of kids which took the SAT in grade 7 performs in 11th-12th grade. </p>
<p>But, if you want to try this experiment with your kid, go right ahead. I just hope they don’t end up like this one:</p>
<p>"Im in 7th grade and I want to get into an ivy league I was wondering if 570m 560cr and 530 wr is good (1660 total). Wr could have been like 560-570 but I forgot to answer 4 questions.
I also heard that people that end up going to princeton, cornell, yale, harvard, etc got like 2000’s in 7th grade or like 30s on the act in 7th grade? is that true? is my score bad?
until which score do you think it can improve if I study? could it ever be 2200+? "…"yes but should I have gotten a 2000 is that harvard material? "…"so can I still get into harvard? ".</p>
<p>billscho, I agree grade-point average is very important. You can’t become a National Merit Finalist no matter how high your score is if you have mediocre grades.</p>
<p>mathyone, virtually all schools encourage seventh-graders in the 95th+ percentile to enter talent searches that involve taking either the ACT or SAT. An ACT score of say 21 or above by a seventh-grader indicates a child who could achieve great things if encouraged. I believe in setting reasonable goals, but when great things are possible, go for it! These “out-of-range” tests can be very helpful in helping parents and children determine what path they ought to take. They also serve as a review. When my son took a practice ACT to prep for the real thing in seventh grade he missed the first math question, which was on absolute value. He had just forgotten. It took about five seconds to reteach it. But if you don’t practice you’ll never know where the gaps are.</p>
<p>The point of taking the PSAT in the eighth, ninth, and tenth grades isn’t to win a scholarship or gain admission to a college. It’s to get feedback on just where the student stands. The seventh-grade talent search and tenth-grade PSAT scores are normed; the percentile is more important than the actual score. My eighth- and ninth-grade children took the PSAT last week, and we will get some valuable feedback. It’s not a burden for kids to take these tests. My ninth-grade son told me he wants to take the SAT in the spring, and I really don’t think he needs to. But if he wants to take it, great; the more feedback the better.</p>
<p>My nephew made a 34 on the ACT, but he made that score on his eighth attempt. His first try was as a sophomore, when he made a 24. He was having trouble time-wise answering all the questions, but in time he improved.</p>
<p>One more thing. Someone said their child took the SAT in the fall as prep for the PSAT. There is no time to get scores back before the PSAT, so this is really poor prep. Students should take the SAT at the end of their sophomore year so they can see their scores and either try to improve or accept that they won’t be in the top two or three percent.</p>
<p>With all of this said, I’m glad most people don’t strive to do well on the PSAT. NMF status is worth from $100,000 to $250,000, so the less competition the better.</p>
<p>“One more thing. Someone said their child took the SAT in the fall as prep for the PSAT. There is no time to get scores back before the PSAT, so this is really poor prep. Students should take the SAT at the end of their sophomore year so they can see their scores and either try to improve or accept that they won’t be in the top two or three percent.”</p>
<p>Not sure if this is directed at my post, but I think we will have to differ on the definition of “poor prep” and that is fine. I am fine with your opinion here, and I’m posting only for the benefit of those who are deciding how to handle this next year. </p>
<p>D has always been very strong on vocab in previous standardized testing. She said the SAT vocab was very difficult, and so I think that made her take a second look at this in prep for the PSAT. Neither test results are in yet, so who knows what the real results will be, but I wanted to pass that along.</p>
<p>I guess I’m not sure, what do the norms from 7th grade tell you? If the school <em>already knows</em> the kid is in the 95+ percentile, and by middle school the school system is incompetent if they haven’t figured that out yet, then why take a test to say, hey, your kid is smart! Tell me something I didn’t know… I found an old thread about 7th grade SAT scores vs. jr/sr scores, and they are all over the place. Our middle school doesn’t encourage students to take the SAT. I asked my daughter if her friends have taken the SAT and she said, they don’t even know what it is (most of them don’t have older siblings). I know of one or two kids who were considering taking it because of interest in applying for one of those summer school programs that requires it. No one here takes it just to see where they stand. </p>
<p>Last year I came across a table put out by the college board showing the test scores obtained in SAT retakes. Unfortunately I didn’t save it and was not able to relocate this interesting document, but there is some less specific info available here: <a href=“http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Student-Senior-Year-Score-Gain-Loss-2013.pdf[/url]”>http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Student-Senior-Year-Score-Gain-Loss-2013.pdf</a>
This gives changes in scores of kids who took the SAT in spring of junior year then again in fall of senior year. Presumably most kids who retook either felt they had underperformed or else were planning to study over the summer, or both. Presumably most who did better than they expected didn’t retake. So, you might expect that most students would improve. And most did. But, if you look at the highest score subgroup on that chart (680-720), the scores went down a bit and on each subscore roughly 20% lost 50 points or more (roughly 16% made comparable gains). The gains might possibly be explained by studying/maturation, but how do you explain the losses? The highest scores listed on that chart are maybe around the minimum level of an NMSF PSAT equivalent. In terms of getting or losing an NMSF, 50 points (5 points per section in PSAT scale) is pretty significant for all those kids who were anxiously awaiting the cutoffs. The data I saw last year showed much more detail, and I think it went all the way up to 800, by each individual score, not ranges. I think it showed pretty clearly that kids in the national merit range of SAT scores are, on average, losing quite a bit on retakes. Would be interesting to look at in this context again, if anyone has a link to it. </p>
<p>I think these SAT tests really aren’t as reproducible as the college board would like people to think. I also think it’s sad that so much depends on something that evidently has such a high random element for so many kids. And, considering that students who take the exams just a few months apart show so much variability in scores, it’s that much harder to say what might happen between 7th and 11th/12th grade. It seems to me both from our own experience and from these data charts that test prep has diminishing returns, especially once you get close to the range of NMSF scores.</p>
<p>suzy100, I was referencing your comment. Wasn’t trying to be insulting. No doubt taking the SAT in early October of the junior year might be helpful. My opinion is that taking it at the end of the sophomore year allows one to get score feedback. But everyone has to decide these decisions on their own and I was just sharing my opinion.</p>
<p>mathyone, the charts you reference are very interesting. I do believe there is a certain element of luck in getting the very highest scores. If 16 students answer every question correctly but then have four questions that they are able to eliminate three choices on and guess, one student (6.25 percent) will get them all right and one will get them all wrong. Four students will get one or three right. Six students will get two right. In a testing situation the students who come in below the norm on guessing are going to pay a real price. </p>
<p>I do think prep can reduce the luck factor. Presumably the more one preps the fewer questions will involve guesswork. But I do think you make a good point. On a personal level my test PSAT, SAT, and ACT were good but not outstanding. I later did pretty well on the LSAT and was sorely tempted to take it again in an effort to get a perfect score, purely for bragging rights. In the end I decided two or three of my points were due to “luck” and that I had nowhere to go but down.</p>
<p>I might add that our school does no nationally normed testing. When we lived in Kentucky our kids took at least one nationally normed test per year. So the only way I see to get feedback is through taking these tests. I think the lack of normed testing is for racial reasons. My son’s school is about 40 percent minority, and if no nationally normed tests are ever given then no achievement gap exists, does it? Kind of like the tree falling in the forest when no one is there to hear it.</p>
<p>Changing the subject slightly, but responding to an earlier point, administering the ACT or SAT in seventh grade identifies students who are already college ready, or nearly college ready. These college-ready students should be dual enrolled as soon as possible. Many states and/or colleges have a minimum required ACT (or corresponding SAT) for dual enrollment in the ninth grade. For example, Missouri requires a 28; the University of Georgia a 29; Mississippi requires a 30. Yet there is no way for a parent or student to know that their child might be eligible for dual enrollment unless they participate in a talent search or early test on their own.</p>
<p>Also, students who participate in a seventh grade talent search and do well are invited to participate in a summer academic program that is admittedly pricey. My son met some older kids who really stressed the importance of both studying and being active in clubs, and I’ve seen a real improvement in his school performance. He was able to take Algebra II over the summer and is one of four freshmen enrolled in pre-calc/trig this year. So these four will be in BC calc by the time they takes the PSAT, which I presume will be to their advantage.</p>
<p>My personal opinion is that a student who scores a 26 or higher on the ACT at the end of eighth grade is ready for dual enrollment. The first comment my son had about his college class was about how “serious” the students were – no talking or cutting up during class. He has to do a lot of reading. It’s made him a more serious student. College courses are weighted on a 4.5 scale, so a student who is able to dual enroll early has a real advantage in terms of class rank and perhaps (dare we say it out loud?) valedictorian/salutatorian.</p>