How much debt is too much for a Computer Scientist Graduate?

Paying for College
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<p>“My backup plans are electrical engineering, architecture, finance, accounting, mechanical engineering, or maybe some other kind of engineering, which are all lucrative and highly demanded careers (according to the Federal Occupational Outlook Handbook).”</p>

<p>Just want to point out that architecture major does not guarantee a lucrative career, nor is it in high demand. UM requires architecture applicants to have completed two yeras of coursework either at UM or somewhere outside UM if not a freshman ([Bachelor</a> of Science (B.S.) - michigan architecture](<a href=“http://taubmancollege.umich.edu/architecture/programs/bachelor_science/]Bachelor”>http://taubmancollege.umich.edu/architecture/programs/bachelor_science/)), which is not fit for your situaton.</p>

<p>You’d better cross out this backup plan for architecture and stick with CS. BTW, talk to people in the fields to gain more realistic ideas rather than depending solely on information from the books. </p>

<p>Talk to the financial aid staff at UM.</p>

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<p>"You are right that I don’t know I’ll graduate as a Computer Scientist, but you could say the same about any major I choose. "</p>

<p>Yes, one could say that about any major you choose. But one of the things that makes your plans of borrowing so much, bearable is that you are contemplating going into field with a high likelihood of ready employment and making a wage that could handle the loans. If you changed your mind and become some area major with out such employment possibilities, taking out those loans without family back up would be ever so much more risky. Your back up plans are not the sort of thing people switch into; in fact the exodus from those majors is very high. If things don’ t work out for you in Computer Science, the chances are that you aren’t handling the courses well, and the likelihood of switching into those other fields is very low. Accounting you would have to request a transfer into the business school which is an application process. Really, a bad year can quash all of your plans and the chances of it happening are not slight. Happens more times than not. That’s why I would feel a lot better, if you had a great showing in college by having two years of general studies courses along with the calc and other such foundation courses, with excellent grades. At that point, I would whole heartedly endorse borrowing what it takes to get your four year degree in a field that is likely to get you a decent paying job quickly. Right now you are just another freshman (despite some advanced standing–it does not seem to be taking any time off of your years at UM) with big plans, and those with the plans like yours do not tend to make it. Which is fine, but you have a family that can’t help you much financially, and no financial leeway. A whole other story than a kid who has that back up. I see too many of them like you, back home barely working enough to cover living expenses much less paying back those loans and another mouth to feed at the family home. </p>

<p>The reality is that those kids with families that have the resources, can count on some leeway from them. You need to put together resumes, look for jobs, buy clothes, borrow to buy a car, need some cash right after college as you find a job. Some very lucky folks may find a company to front them with some seed money, but believe me, that is not the usual course of events. When you have the money to back you, you can afford “The Graduate” summer, but if your family is strapped, it’s a whole other story. Bear in mind that the unsub parts of your loan are accruing interest the instant you take them.</p>

<p>Do talk to UM and find out what their financial aid policies are for transfer students that are instate. Hopefully, you get enough aid that you don’t have to borrow that much. Yes, i understand ALL the reasons, every single one you can list and probably a bunch more, including those that may not pertain to you about why CC is not the ideal choice and why you don’t want to go that way. But if you don’t have the money, and neither do your parents, and the school/system won’t pay, that is something that you have to keep in mind. Where are you planning to get the extra loan money anyways? Also, as Deb922 has said, things do happen that can ruin job plans, whether it is illness, rescheduling, a course that is causing you problems, job shut down, etc. My son had a great job last year. Loved it. High pay, great hours and right on the way he walked from dorm to school. What could go wrong? Rescheduling of recitation session, a class/prof/grad with hours that conflicted, an inability to work minimum hours required to keep the job and no way to switch hours as no one would budge. Had to quit. One moment he was flush for the semester and the summer, and the next he had no job, and was finding out that if he wanted to switch majors, he would have to take a course over the summer to graduate in 4 years. Yeah, these things do happen.</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse, I find it so hard for kids in these cases. I wonder what the solution is. I agree that big debt is not preferable and should be avoided if you can but here you have a kid who went to CC, working all he can and is trying to accrue as little debt as he can. But I just don’t see what options he has and how he can get out of this “cycle of poverty”. Hopefully Michigan will meet his need but he’s going to the state flagship, not the cheapest school in the state but the only one which he has a promise to meet need. I know it’s hard to predict the future and the hope is that he wil stay in the major he picked. But any degree from Michigan should have better earning opportunity than no degree.</p>

<p>I’ve met kids in this situation and it breaks my heart every time. This kid seems like a hard worker and without the safety net that other kids have. I’m hoping that it all works out. He should have an idea with a year of CC if he will be able to hack it in a STEM major. If not he can transfer back to a local school if he will have less earning opportunities, if there is a local option he can commute to.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>This student is likely in a VERY GOOD position. He’s instate for UMich and has a 0 EFC. Unless CSS uncovers some other source of income/assets, he’s going to get all of his need met at UMich.</p>

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<p>I agree mom2collegekids. I’m just wondering about cptofthehouse’s opinions. I think this is this kid’s best option and if he has to have some debt, I don’t see another way out of it. It sounds like he is doing the best he can, he’s trying to figure out what the worst case would be if he has to take out loans.</p>

<p>I’m not attacking cptofthehouse, really I’m not. I can’t see a better option for this kid or what a better option would be. Maybe she does. I do see laying out what might go wrong but I really hope and want for someone in this situation to be able to get a degree and have a great job.</p>

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<p>I don’t look at it as an attack, and I certainly think the OP should keep this option as his prime one. As Mom2 says, the chances are good, unless there is something in the financials that is going to crop up that UM will meet a lot of his need. But if it does not?</p>

<p>Well, what we have here is a student with big plans, from a family that is financially strapped, that wants to go to a school taking out more loans than the Staffords. Yes, he’s gone to CC, but for what ever reason, there is absolutely no discussion on what he did there. Has he taken calc here? How many credits did he accrue there? He took enough courses to quash his ability to apply to UM as a first year student, yet didn’t get even a semester of the time he will need for the comp sci major. It isn’t brought up even as a possibility. The major is a tough one and a lot of kids wash out.</p>

<p>As I explained in an earlier post, I am very close to a mom whose very bright DD went to a school that was out of range in price, but mom and girl felt this was a good “investment”. Not at all. It didn’t pan out as expected, and both of them are really in financial trouble. She did graduate but with very high debt with mom as a cosigner on some private loans which put them both on the hook, and the interest rates have been clicking like a NYC’s yellow tab on those loans. No work out there. She changed majors and now can’t find a job. Her grades were not all that hot either. Respectable, but not in the ranges that get you hired by firms that pay well, and not in courses that are of interest. </p>

<p>I don’t jump right in and recommend CC as a matter of course. I know the limitations and problems with it. And I don’t always side on the avoidance of debt. But in this case, some evidence of solid performance at a CC that might make a dent in the curriculum, like even a term, would make me feel a lot better. I write this someone who had her head handed to her after getting near perfect math SATs, in a rigorous math course at an elite university, when I never saw grades below a B in my life, and very few of them </p>

<p>Some debt is a big difference from $50K in debt and climbing with no idea as to where he is going to get the money. He doesn’t quite know what he is doing in terms of financial aid and can lose the zero EFC , like 1.2.3 if he isn’t careful, and if he has money stashed right now, in his name 50% of it could go right to the EFC unless he is an automatic zero in it. </p>

<p>As I said, I think UM will pay out more than he is thinking they will, if he optimally completes the FAFSA and things work out right for him. I don’t think he will need to borrow as much as he is setting out. But if he should…ummm. I don’t know if the risk is worth taking with the how difficult it can be to pay back that much in loans. I don’t see anything in his profile right now that indicates that he will be a great Computer Science major with little likelihood of trouble. That major is not one to take lightly, and he seems to think he can just jump to another strenuous one if it doesn’t work out. I don’t think so.</p>

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<p>If his family is truly low income and doesn’t have an asset that would show up in Profile (lots of home equity, etc), then it’s likely that the CSS Profile calculation will indicate little/no contribution from his family.</p>

<p>the student is trying to carefully figure this all out, but he’s made a couple of mistakes…including the tuition amount. He really needs to have his parents do the NPC on UMich’s website, submit FAFSA and CSS, and perhaps contact UMich to get some idea of the aid he can expect. </p>

<p>In the end he should get a good-sized UMich grant, a Pell grant, some fed student loans. If there is a “family/student” contribution, it could be covered either by some summer earnings or by economizing with books and personal expenses.</p>

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<p>He needs to talk to the financial aid office at UMich and ask about his transfer status and if that squelches his chances of getting full need met. Also what were the courses and grades at Comm college? I’d feel a lot better about this if he had gotten great grades in some tough courses there. It is a bit of a flag that he took a year off, and took just enough courses to lose first year student status. </p>

<p>Again, not telling student to forget the whole thing. But am bringing a reality check here. That is a lot of money to borrow, and the chances of getting through with a Comp Sci or other “lucrative” degree is not high. I haven’t seen anything that indicates any promise about this other than acceptance to UMich in the program and that the student swears he wants to do it. And I’ve heard that song too many times before.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure how pell grants work but if they were given for a year of CC how does that affect eligibility for the rest of college. D’s college would only give 8 semesters of aid. Is the pell the same, only 8 semesters of aid.</p>

<p>Thanks cptofthehouse for your explanation. I appreciate your concerns.</p>

<p>Jay506, we are happy to help you. Bear with us while we try. I found financial aid to be one of the most confusing, complex things I have dealt with. Made health insurance a piece of cake, which it is not.</p>

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<p>Pell grants are given for about 12 semesters. </p>

<p>Your D’s school is probably concerned about institutional aid or maybe state aid. Sometimes state or institutional aid is limited to 4 years/8 semesters/Xquarters.</p>

<p>That said, this student doesn’t seem to be in danger anyway. He’s only done 2 semesters at a CC. …last fall and this current semester.</p>

<p>He needs to talk to the financial aid office at UMich and ask about his transfer status and if that squelches his chances of getting full need met. Also</p>

<p>He can ask, but UMich makes it clear that instate students all get their need met. It’s not unusual for state schools to give instate transfers the same need-based aid opportunities (not merit), since many of their kids are from their CC systems. They don’t want to screw those kids.</p>

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<p>There is no easy answer to this. That the student, himself, is doing all of this work is a very good sign, rather than a very, hopeful parent. I didn’t have the nerve to tell my friend to tell her daughter that they could not afford that school and the loans have really wreaked havoc on the two of them. Not only did the “investment” not panned out, they are in some much debt that even a middle income family would have trouble at this point in making a dent in the mess after paying the interest. Once you start getting into those outside loans, you can be in a lot of trouble. The interest rate on those unsubs for kids and the PLUS are no deals either. Do some math and you’ll see. </p>

<p>The problem is that once you go to a school like UMich and wash out of the lucrative program, having the discipline to go home and enroll in a commuter school, is rarely there unless you flunk out. What often happens is that the program is too much for the kid or they decide they can’t/don’t want to do it and change majors. You are highly unlikely to switch to accounting and engineering or other such major in such cases. You become a humanities, social sciences, area major or whatever, which is fine, except that whole part of earning all of that money right after grad goes out the window. My friend’s DD should have immediately transferred to a local state school when her plans changed. But she loved the school and did very well after she switched to a Philosophy major and her school does have a very highly rated Philosophy program, I think she took an extra term to graduate, but anyways, she ended up behind the financial 8 ball. </p>

<p>There was a mom who rightfully upbraided me, and a bunch of us who proselytising about taking huge educational loans. She had taken them with her DD to send her to a program that accepted here that had high chances for good paying employment. Either she did not get into the state program or there was none, but she got in to a very good private one that was going to cost a whole lot of money, and most of it would have to be borrowed. What does one say to this? The mom had some excellent points and felt that these educational loans offer opportunities to those without the income. They are deliberately set up so that income is not taken into consideration for qualification when it comes to the PLUS. So they wanted to take that chance. So what do you do when your DD gets accepted to say, a great 6 year Pharmacy program or nursing program at a private or OOS school? The chances of transferring into such programs are not great so it is like grabbing a brass ring. </p>

<p>I still don’t know the answer, and in this case, really have no real advice for the OP, and am just pointing out the pitfalls in his arguments rather than saying he shouldn’t do this. But the reality that any loan that requires his most likely already financially challenged families to sign with him is harmful to them. They can’t afford much of a loan payment and if the OP doesn’t pay up, they are really in trouble. It’s not just a simple, “oh gee, I’ll be poor for a few years and have no credit”, something a young person can weather though not ideal, but can bring a whole family down. It 's truly a terrible spiral. My friend was turned down for several jobs where she was offered the position and could not pass the HR vetting due to her terrible credit,mostly due to those loans. A tax check was confiscated towards payment to the account, and they are only in their current apartment because some of us pitched together and paid a three month security deposit rather than one because her credit is so bad now. When you owe upwards to $50K and the jobs you are going for are not for that amount, it is not a good thing at all. These are not my rules or my judgement but observations.</p>

<p>As I said a number of times, I think the OP will get more than the minimal amounts from UMich. It is an in state school for him, and it does give good aid. The transfer status makes it more iffy, but with a very low EFC, i think the school will come up with enough money that outside loans won’t be necessary.</p>

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<p>@mom</p>

<p>You’re right, I incorrectly assumed that the tuition & fees for my department was for the entire year. The actual total cost is nearly $10k higher per year than my estimates. Very upsetting indeed. Looks like I’ll just have to wait and hope they give me sufficient aid. Otherwise I may be forced to go somewhere else.</p>

<p>As for losing Pell Grant Eligibility for earning more than $6, that just sucks. I’m not sure what to do now.</p>

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<p>Jay, have you spoken to financial aid at UMichigan and asked them what you can expect in terms of financial aid as a transfer? Did they out and out tell you that they do not meet full need for Transfers? Ask what the average aid is for a transfer student. </p>

<p>You need to read up on FAFSA and PEll grants and find out where you stand on them in terms of what you earned and whether you still get an auto zero EFC still. PELL money can be gotten for EFC up to $5550. It’s not an all or nothing situaton, though it does go down from the full amount. I believe you also have to complete PROFILE for UMI.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, I too am loathe to see a kid let go of a cherished acceptance and when it’s one of mine, it hurts, oh, yes it hurts. But I’m looking at this now with 15 years of perspective. I have a kid who put his nose up two years ago at a local college that gave him a full scholarship, a school that does not make the USNews rating in the first few pages and that I’ve yet to see mentioned here on this board. He went instead to his first choice school which was affordable. He threw out any school that wasn’t without a thought, and picked from what was left. But you know, he’s grown up in these two years and some rocky experiences have made him look at this a whole other way. He knows a lot of very good kids, doing very well at Local College, they have their social network and are enjoying themselves just fine. Some things aren’t what he expected at First Choice U and he is finding that getting what he wants is not so easy. Can’t switch school without alot of rigamorale. The money is a lot tighter than he expected it to be. Isn’t making friends like he had hoped he would, as he didn’t know many, hardly any there. Job didn’t work out. Unexpected expenses. Didn’t get into some classes he wanted. Was locked out by priorities based on majors and seniority. Housing is an issue. He is fortunate that we have been able to have his back on some of his issues. Had he been stretched to the last dollar and had we, his parents also been broke, it would not have been a good situation at all. Had he stayed at home and commuted, he’d be getting the degree and classes he wanted with no problem and have money to spare and friends abound. Once stripped of the illusions that came with going to a bigger name school and going through the realities of living at such a school, it wasn’t such a great thing after all. </p>

<p>You seem to be a sharp student, doing all of this on your own. I would forge on, but try to keep the emotion out of it. I’m saying this even as I don’t do well in this area myself. Easy to say to someone else, but being removed from the situation does allow one to look at it differently. So though some of us might sound harsh and discouraging on this board, we aren’t trying to tear you down, but to point out issues that those who just hear the good part will not bring up. Everyone will pat your back and congratulate you for your UM acceptance and come up with statements about how it will all be worth it and thing will work out somehow. Take it for what thought went into those statements as they come rolling out of their mouths. Many of us parents on this board have seen these scenarios many time over. Not saying they don’t work out, but it can be painful, arduous and risky. Just pointing out the thorns in the path.</p>

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<p>Jay, it is upsetting, and I want to commend you for continuing to work through this. You’re demonstrating a lot of maturity, even though this is difficult.</p>

<p>Just to emphasize a few points: really do go talk to financial aid at MICH. It’s way better to know the situation and then work it from there. Go and ask for help, that’s what they’re there for. In other words, don’t just hope for the best. This is really important to you, and you have a right to know the policies sooner rather than later.</p>

<p>The reason it’s so hard to change majors is the prerequisites and sequence of courses if you change from something like computer science to engineering. If you do 1 year and then change from CS to something technical, say engineering, you may well have another 4 years ahead of you. So that’s something to consider.</p>

<p>It sounds like you could be in good shape. Now’s not the time to give up. Just keep taking the next step through the process, clarify the transfer financial aid situation, and then it will be clear what to do next. Best of luck to you!</p>

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<p>Update to all interested:</p>

<p>Just got my award notice yesterday and surprisingly enough I wasn’t offered much at all. I was offered one community college transfer scholarship which would amount to $10,000 across four years ($5,000 per year for 2 years) but no campus-based aid other than that. Just federal grants and federal loans.</p>

<p>I got the Pell Grant ($5,600), the FSEOG ($1,500), Work Study ($2,500) and some federal loans that totaled $5,500. With all that combined I would still have about a $12,000 gap per year. With the CC scholarship they offered, that drops to about $10,000 per year. Working over the summer plus money from my savings and family (hopefully) would bring that gap down to around $5,000 per year, optimistically. That plus the federal loans would still mean over $10,000 per year in loans for a total of well over $40,000 assuming I can even get those loans. </p>

<p>This is quite surprising. I mean, I didn’t expect them to pay for everything , but…with a zero EFC, on-time documents, and their apparent mission “meet need”, I did expect a bit more than $2,500 a year in University-based grants and a bit less than $10k per year in loans. I’ll have to think about this some more, talk to a few relatives, and wait for MSU to reply. Though I doubt State is going to be any more generous. </p>

<p>I dunno. I need to let this sink in some more. I would like to keep the total loans in the $30k range ideally. If not, I may have to commute to Ann Arbor which isn’t exactly favorable - mom’s already trying to kick me out, plus I don’t want to be home anyway, but most importantly, I’m not looking forward to the long commutes every day. hmm…what to do…if I decide commuting is too much, maybe I’ll just try the Dearborn campus instead. It’s not that bad I guess. <em>sigh</em> I should have done better in High School.</p>

<p>Sorry for ranting. Guess I just needed to vent a bit.</p>

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<p>I think you need to call them and have them go over the FA award since they promise to “meet need” and your family is low income. </p>

<p>Are you sure that your parents don’t have any assets? Do you have savings? </p>

<p>You don’t lose Pell eligibility if you earn more than $6k. It’s just that the amount “over $6k” will reduce your Pell Grant about fifty cents for every extra dollar you earn. So if you earn $6500, then you’d lose about 250 Pell dollars. </p>

<p>HOWEVER, money earned in Work Study doesn’t count. So you can earn $6k from a summer job and $2500 from WS and you wouldn’t lose any Pell dollars.</p>

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<p>I filled in the data directly for both the Fafsa and the Profile as my mom told me the information. She had no assets (it was literally zero). I recorded that I had $1,500 in savings from my financial aid refund check, but that’s it. </p>

<p>Either there was an error or U-M aren’t quite as devoted to “meeting need” as they appear. I’d bet my money on the latter.</p>

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<p>So, you need to have these forms in hand when talking to them. you have a 0 EFC and no assets that would indicate that you should have much of a contribution. You need to ask them how they’re keeping their promise of meeting need, when you have full need - which is indicated by your FAFSA and CSS.</p>

<p>You need to ask them specifically, “What info on my CSS Profile gives you the idea that my family can pay $10k per year.”</p>

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<p>Thanks for updating Jay. This is vey upsetting though. I wish Michigan would explain what meeting need is because this clearly isn’t. </p>

<p>I would meet with a FA rep and maybe post your question on the Michigan forum. I think they have an admission rep on there. Maybe they could explain this gap when they claim to meet need to in state students.</p>

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<p>Good news! </p>

<p>I talked to the financial aid department and the guy said there was some sort of error with my profile. The guy saw it and immediately fixed it. The entire process took about 2 minutes. They gave me two scholarships (called the M-Pact and Michigan Scholarship, I think) which completely filled my gap of $12,000. I only have to take out $5,500 in loans this year. This is really almost too good to be true. Something deep down is telling me not to get too happy as something may come up, but until that happens, this is great!</p>