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<p>But wouldn’t the analogy really be a beautiful home contest? Fine if someone else cleaned it as long as you did the design.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the argument that parents are busy so they pay to get someone else to help. I did all of my college applications myself. I researched, extensively, different programs, requirements, opportunities, careers, scholarships, financial aid, etc-- and then had to educate my parents myself to get them on board. A child should know EXACTLY how much work goes into getting to college so they know exactly what they have to lose if they take it for granted, I don’t know why parents or anyone else would do that FOR their child. Might admissions be tougher to crack for schools better than my umich? Sure! Does that not mean your kids are smarter, too? </p>
<p>I really commend you guys for your involvement in your children’s education, and I think most of you are doing fantastic things for your kids-- I am not trying to knock that. My parents are on the opposite side of the spectrum and it can be really difficult to get things accomplished, so really, I appreciate what you do. But I don’t understand for a second why a child can’t fill out an application and write some essays themselves. At 17 years old I coordinated my own applications, own visits, own tours, own travel-- I did everything myself. I have a math related learning disability and had to go so far as to research disability accommodation and policies, and various math requirements for different degrees. The idea that they even NEED you to be a huge administrator in the process, much less that they need a professional, nine times out of ten is simply ludicrous. Unless your child is the one exception, which for all I know they may well be, I don’t understand how they could have possibly been responsible enough to make good grades and be an involved community member if they aren’t responsible enough to handle applying to college with minimal assistance. Other than perhaps to suggest colleges the student may not have known about, I just don’t get it.</p>
<p>You know what, at age 17 I did the same exact thing myself too. I fancy that I know a bit about colleges today largely because of all the extensive work I did myself, on my own initiative, when I was 17. I visited schools myself, went by Greyhound bus, no parents.</p>
<p>But let’s say you’re a parent, and you see that your own kid isn’t doing squat. You can let him/her reap the consequent rewards of that, but let’s say you feel that may have consequences to them that they may not be so crazy about once they finally grow up. So human nature is to help them out, if you can. For some people, maybe not others.</p>
<p>Besides which, even parents, not being in the business of college admissions, do not know everything that may be relevant.</p>
<p>“nine times out of ten…”</p>
<p>Then there is that tenth time with extenuating, complicated circumstances, where it is not a standard college search/application process and the basics are not covered or mismanaged by the school’s counseling dept. </p>
<p>Be proud of what you were able to do for yourself, but please don’t judge others for what they do to make sure their kids get where they should be.</p>
<p>"You know what, at age 17 I did the same exact thing myself too. I fancy that I know a bit about colleges today largely because of all the extensive work I did myself, on my own initiative, when I was 17. I visited schools myself, went by Greyhound bus, no parents.</p>
<p>But let’s say you’re a parent, and you see that your own kid isn’t doing squat. You can let him/her reap the consequent rewards of that, but let’s say you feel that may have consequences to them that they may not be so crazy about once they finally grow up. So human nature is to help them out, if you can. For some people, maybe not others.</p>
<p>Besides which, even parents, not being in the business of college admissions, do not know everything that may be relevant. "</p>
<p>I do get that. I do wonder if a child unwilling to do squat is genuinely ready to go to college directly after high school, but I see your point. It’s just a very foreign concept to me I guess that such measures would be necessary. It’s not like I was 17 twenty years ago when it was simpler, I was 17 three years ago-- and then I did the whole process over again when I wanted to transfer, and figured out all my loans by myself despite being damn near acalculic-- there are people with my disability who aren’t even able to live independently. I was never a top student until I got to college, I was never hugely motivated to jump into things, but I did what was necessary. I suppose when I am a parent I will better understand how such gifted children as some of these here could manage to be so unmotivated. Maybe it was just all around easier for them and they aren’t used to having to work as hard. I don’t know. Even if I don’t totally understand, I do understand your point. As a parent it must be difficult to watch a talented student not using those talents. Hopefully they’ll learn that they should know better before they miss out on a great opportunity.</p>
<p>^I’m not ashamed for any administrative help I gave my kids while they applied to college. (No, I didn’t write essays! EWWW!) In our case, as I am sure it is with many others, it is not a matter of our kids not being “responsible enough to handle applying to college with minimal assistance;” it’s a time factor. </p>
<p>If a kid is not a top student or is were aiming to go to the local state college, it wouldn’t have taken any time at all to apply. Sure, he or she could have done it all by him- or herself. No big deal. A lot of my daughter’s friends went this route.</p>
<p>But if the kid’s a high end kid, a top student who wants to attend a super selective college–you’re usually talking about someone who has massive time commitments for multiple ECs (sports, music, whatever)–on school campus and off campus, lots of AP classes and studying very hard to do well in them, prepping for multiple standardized tests since super-selective colleges require many more than most colleges, in addition to applying to many more colleges than most of their classmates–because you just don’t know which low percentage college might admit you, you have to apply to more of them. Essays carry so much more importance–no shlocky work product here.</p>
<p>Time is in short supply, VERY short supply–time better spent rewriting an essay or doing homework rather than shuffling paperwork. Plus, if it helps to alleviate the stress of first semester senior year, that’s all to the good.</p>
<p>When I was a senior in college, I applied to 2 colleges–one close to home, one far away. One application was pretty easy, the other was a little more involved. I picked the college close to home. Didn’t need parental involvement at all. I don’t regret it, but my kids wanted something more. </p>
<p>Having had 2 high end kids, let me tell you–I get it…</p>
<p>But I wouldn’t pay someone $300 an hour…unless they could do it all in 1 hour. :)</p>
<p>That was more my point, ellemenope. XD I read someone had fifteen applications, some help shuffling paperwork would have been necessary for me to pull that off. (Though I can’t imagine having any rational need to apply to fifteen different schools. That’s just poor planning.) I get that some kids need some help and especially in cases like that it really does a lot-- my thoughts were more that mom and dad’s help is a huge bonus as it is, except in certain exceptional cases I can’t imagine more being necessary. And if any of you feel that your kid is one of those exceptional cases than you have no need to take offense to what I am saying, because I am not trying to say who is an exceptional case and who isn’t.</p>
<p>Some are the opposite of unmotivated. They are overcommitted, overrecruited, or maybe even sick (or disabled in a way that makes doing this stuff by themselves really difficult). </p>
<p>The sheer number of multiple apps for my first kid, because of the scholarships in play, motivated ME to assist with what I viewed as research and clerical support. Writing all of the essays and doing the interviews for 15 colleges was contribution enough for a kid already working very, very hard on academics, extracurriculars and a job. </p>
<p>If my kid were applying to 4-5 non-elites with no scholarship pressure, then sure, they could do that for themselves. </p>
<p>It did take 15 apps to end up with 3 large scholarship offers from 3 top 15 colleges, and full rides from a couple of state Us-not poor planning, just good strategizing.</p>
<p>You’re right, MomPhD. It does make sense for some kids to need extra help.</p>
<p>It’s not that they are not motivated, sometimes they don’t understand it takes more than just good stats to get into colleges. Most 17 year olds are naive enough to think if they work hard then they should be able to go to their dream schools. </p>
<p>A ballet dancer (my daughter) probably would have a better of getting into a school that’s trying to expand its dance or performing arts program, but it’s not something that would be advertised on a school’s website. An Ivy school professor just got a large grant for film making probably would want a few students showing particular interest, especially if such student should contact the professor directly. A top tier southern school looking for more private school students from NE probably would not come right out to say it. A student from an affluent family who has traveled a lot, never worked maybe a turn off for some adcoms, unless she also writes about some volunteer work, passion for certain EC…</p>
<p>I wouldn’t jump into conclusion why a private counselor is needed for some people. Around our area, it is not unusual to pay a tutor $125/hr for a high school course or 150-200/hr for SAT tutoring. Therefore I am not surprised at 300/hr price point for a private college counselor.</p>
<p>By virtue of the fact that they are here, the parents on college confidential are very involved in all aspects of their children’s lives. College is the biggest decision most young adults have ever had to make and you an be certain the CC parents are front and center for the process.</p>
<p>This is a $200,000 purchase with unpredictable returns. No, I’m not trusting my currently 16 year old to decide where we’re spending this money. Yes, I do think you get more for your money at some schools than others. I am going to do what I can, ethically and honestly, to make sure that we get the most bang for my hard earned money. It is true that if my child planned to attend our local state school at $12K/year, I would let him run the whole 100 yards with it, but that’s not what he wants.</p>
<p>To be clear, as I said previously we have not used outside counselors. D1 & D2 got input from their HS counselors, did their own research (far less than I did), wrote their own applications. They also did, however, get my two cents, for better or worse. And we took them for college visits, which my parents didn’t do.</p>
<p>But its entirely possible they might have done “better” if they’d had a resource to talk to who had more insight than I have. D1, anyway. I don’t see a problem with doing that.</p>
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Considering the percentage of high school students who admit to cheating, is it any surprise that many either aren’t writing or are getting far too much “help” with their college application essays? I think it’s cheating, too. At what point does doing multiple edits cross the line? </p>
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And there’s a college counseling service that (I believe guarantees) this service. </p>
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Interesting is that the D is going to a community college!</p>
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Maybe they should be, but I’m sure they never will be. There are a couple of college counseling professional organizations, I believe, but of course membership in them is voluntary.</p>
<p>Although the OP requested that college counselors also weigh in on this thread, I notice that none did…</p>
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<p>I’ve read the thread and am a college counselor. I didn’t participate for a couple of reasons. One is that the OP asked about fees and such. I do not promote services on CC and simply volunteer and answer questions to help others with college admissions. In fact, promotion is against the TOS. The OP was also asking others’ experiences with counselors (that seemed to be the thrust). In addition, there are a lot of very negative things and misunderstandings being said of the whole college counseling practice. </p>
<p>I’ll bite regardless even though I wasn’t going to. My response here is about college counseling itself and not my own work.</p>
<p>Does everyone need a college counselor? Surely not. I think many students and parents navigate this process wonderfully on their own. In fact, on CC of all places, I would see how a majority would not see any need for a counselor because well, they are here on CC which means they are very involved in the process and if a parent, helping their child. There is a wealth of information on CC. CC parents are the ones who may need the least help from a counselor, LOL. But there are many other parents out there. But even on CC, the help is not that individualized. You can learn a great deal of helpful information but not be guided through your child’s process in an individualized way. Just pointing that out (I know what I post on CC is more general help and what I do with my students is WAYYYYYYY more specific to them). </p>
<p>There are some parents who, for whatever reason (and it can be quite valid), cannot as easily assist their child with this process. They may not have the time due to work load or number of children. They may not have the desire. They may not have the requisite knowledge about the process. As a parent myself, I found that assisting my own kids with the process was like a part time job! Another issue is that in many families, it is hard for a parent to work with a child on this sort of thing due to the relationship dynamics and it can be a hair pulling experience. Many have said how much better it went (even if the parents was still involved and helping too) to have a third party guiding their child as the counselor doesn’t have the emotional baggage with the kid (I find that I could be giving the same message to a teen that the parents tried to give but the kid listens to me but not the parent). The counselor is an objective third party and there is not that same level of emotional issues between them. Another issue is that many times, parents are not realistic about their own child’s chances at various schools (we all know our kids are the best, right??? LOL…I’m a mom…I know!!) and it helps them a great deal to have an objective person assess the odds and give a realistic picture. Some are not realistic also due to just not really understanding the college admissions situation fully (it takes a lot of research to be up on this and I realize a lot of CC parents are but many are NOT). </p>
<p>Another issue is the assistance from the school guidance counselor. Many GCs are assigned a huge number of students and could not possibly assist a student in college admissions anywhere near what a private counselor can devote to one family. A GC has other responsibilities, usually, other than college admissions, with the students they are assigned. Depending on the types of colleges a student is applying to, in some cases, their GC is not all that familiar with that process or type of college (ie., if student attends a HS where it is rare a student applies to highly selective colleges and this student is going to, the GC may be less helpful or knowledgeable about it). Some students are applying to specialized degree programs, such as in the arts, and many school counselors are not familiar with this specialized application and audition process, nor the schools or the high degree of selectivity involved. </p>
<p>Now, some seem appalled that a family would hire a college counselor. Step back for a moment and realize that schools do have counselors for college selection and admissions help. So, basically, we expect students to get guidance in this process, don’t we? Simply, a school counselor may not be enough of assistance in many situations. Some want or need more individualized help. Just like kids go to school and take a math class, some hire tutors as the student needs more assistance one to one. Some attend private schools with great college assistance but many do not. Actually, I also work with many students attending private and boarding schools even so. An independent college counselor can do way more one to one with them than any counselor working with more students (for example, I don’t have a long list of students as someone on a school staff would have). </p>
<p>I think many parents can do this with their kids just fine! Others find it less overwhelming to have someone with expertise guiding them every step of the way, even if the parents are still involved in the process (I would say that the majority of the parents I work with are very involved even so). There is always someone to answer questions. There is someone “on call” 24/7 (including weekends). There is someone who knows exactly what needs to be done and how to do it effectively. The counselor also can assess a college list and make sure it is well balanced and appropriate for that student (In my experience, in most cases, what is initially presented to me is not as good of a college list that the student ends up with after we work together). A college counselor can suggest appropriate colleges that the family never considered. </p>
<p>As far as help with the application process…I don’t see it as a college counselor getting a student into college that he/she would not get into otherwise! I do not believe a college counselor can get someone admitted. But what a college counselor can do is to guide the student into putting together the best applications to present who she/he is than they may have known how to do on their own. Speaking for myself (and the counselors I know)… we do not DO the applications!!! We do not WRITE the essays!!! Independent college counselors do what many of you are doing as parents advising your child but we know how to do it very well. A college counselor knows how to approach an application and the pieces involved. Guiding and facilitating the process is not doing it for the kid and it is not cheating. It is helping. It is no different than the parents who help and guide their kids (aren’t many of you doing that…I would think so if you are on CC reading up on this process and asking questions here). Parents and students ask the counselor a ton of questions just like many of you do on CC except it is very individualized and an ongoing case, not like a discussion forum. In my own experience, just for example, for those who work with me for just one year, I average about 400 email exchanges and numerous document exchanges. Some work with me for two years. In many instances, particularly in fall of senior year, we are in nearly daily contact. I do not believe in a counselor inventing the kid or redoing or reshaping who they are. A college counselor works with who a student is already and helps them present themselves as best as possible. I believe that the college list the student develops with a college counselor is much more appropriate (in most cases) than the ones they created independently and I do believe that their applications and other materials are better presented than if they went about it on their own and not knowing the best way to go about it. (minor example…kid has to write, “Why I want to attend X college” and most students who send me a first draft…have written way too general of a statement that could be interchanged with any college name and so I guide them into exploring the specifics of the college and explaining how each specific thing matches up with themselves and then make them do that and show me a revision…is that cheating? That is guidance and some have no clue how to go about what is needed…). </p>
<p>I have not taken the time to address all the many negative comments or concerns. College counseling is not for everyone but I can’t tell you how many families who have done it who have said “we could never have done this without you!!” and maybe they could have done it (many of you do it well!) but they felt less overwhelmed having someone with expertise to guide them through the college admissions quagmire and to them, that was worth it. This is my response about college counseling itself.</p>
<p>We have never used a private counselor, but we used D1’s private school counselor extensively. Just as sooziet mentioned, I would call her up to ask, “D1 really wants to go to this school, would she be able to get a leg up if she were to apply to their engineering school?” or “I am worried because she may not have enough safeties.” This counselor was very good at putting my worry and fear at rest. Of course, our daughter had her own questions and she was able to meet with the counselor whenever she wanted.</p>
<p>The best thing about this counselor (even though we didn’t pay her) was she always had our daughter’s best of interest at heart, not ours. From time to time when I had some crazy ideas, she would never do anything without speaking with D1 first. She always asked D1, “Is this what you want?” Sometimes D1’s wishes were different than ours, and the counselor always took her side. It was something I really appreciated. I did ask her at one point(when D1 was waitlisted at quite a few schools) if we should hire a private counselor. She said no. She offered to meet with those adcoms in person if necessary. This counselor got everyone of her kids off their waitlists that year.</p>
<p>^^^I should mention, in relation to stuff brought up in your post, that independent college counselors do not contact adcoms to discuss students (I realize a school counselor does that). </p>
<p>Another thing you brought up is a point that comes up in certain cases…and that is that sometimes a parent’s desires for college do not mesh with what the kid desires and so it can help to have someone who is trying to zone in on what the student wants and to help mitigate these differences. </p>
<p>As you wrote, you had access to a counselor in a private school who could do a lot of one-ton-one and it sufficed. Many do not have such a situation at their schools. While some poo poo independent counselors, nobody seems to poo poo getting advice from a school counselor because we expect such assistance for teenagers and even have hired staff at schools for this purpose. But some can’t get that kind of assistance at their school for the reasons I mentioned earlier. An independent counselor can devote far more time to an individual family than most school counselors ever could do.</p>
<p>Some families pay for private prep school and along with that, should come some very good college counseling (often it does). Others attend public school and may hire a private college counselor. How is that all that different? (Some who go to private school also hire a college counselor too). I have students whose high school works on the college essays. My kids’ high school did nothing of the sort! Again, some students are getting assistance in other ways and some are paying to get that same kind of assistance.</p>
<p>Further to soozievt’s excellent posts: My children’s public high school had the 400-kids-per-counselor situation. The GCs were well-meaning, but they essentially let the strong students counsel each other about colleges, while they worked on making certain that the weaker ones applied to some school that would accept them. However, a retired teacher came in several days a week all fall solely to work with students on their college essays. She would take over a class session of AP English every once in awhile, and she met with students individually by appointment. I didn’t think anything she did was inappropriate at all (nor was it very sophisticated or good).</p>
<p>One of my cousins hired a high-end private counselor for his high-end boarding school kid, probably as early as 10th grade, although I didn’t hear about it until the end of 11th. I never asked what he paid – the whole situation was too embarassing for everyone, since our kids were the same age and planning to apply to a number of the same colleges. But I know the counselor had a lot to do with shaping the student’s ECs and summer activities. The initial results were extremely disappointing – he was rejected by two colleges where he would have been a third-generation legacy, and accepted only at his ultimate safety school – although after he got in off the waitlist at a safe-match school the results were merely disappointing. He is very happy at college. Kudos to the counselor, I guess, for making certain that he applied to some realistic schools, but that wasn’t what they hired her to do.</p>
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<p>Therein lies the problem. If someone is hiring a counselor to get their kid into a school that they otherwise could not get into, they are mistaken and misguided. I don’t see that as the role of the counselor at all. </p>
<p>You also mention “shaping” the student. I also do not see that as the role of the counselor. I think the counselor should work with the student as they are and guide them but not change who they are. I don’t believe in doing ECs for college admissions purposes. I believe in suggesting that a student stay engaged and take initiatives and active roles with their activities and so on but not do thing just to get into college. This is not about “makeovers” but about guiding a kid and who they are to reach their goals and to find appropriate schools that fit them and help them navigate the process and to present themselves (as they truly are) in the most positive light in order to successfully be admitted to college.</p>