How much does the brand name actually help you in employment?

[galoisien]

<p>Does it make employers flock to you or your classmates at job fairs? Make for good conversation starters in interviews? ("So, you went to Harvard too, eh? I'm from the class of '82!") I suppose this is merely another facet of the "is it the individual? Or is it the school?" debate, but I mean when you get interviewed, how much does the brand name account for that you couldn't already account to your employer yourself on the basis of showing your merit? Does it make it easier to present your skills? Does it assist in applying to grad school? </p>

<p>I mean, if you were a community college student who had corresponded with Ivy League professors through mailing lists and published papers based on that correspondence and found some other way to acquire better peers to assist you in study, how much would a "brand name" have helped anyway? (The above scenario, by the way, is what I envisioned doing when I got my hoard of reject/waitlist letters, and I almost relished the thought at breaking the stereotypes of all those smug academics, but I suppose I've joined 'the machine' now.)</p>

[frankchn]

<p>I suppose in some industries (investment banking comes to mind) it helps a lot, mainly that the big companies with the lucrative offers recruit almost exclusively at top schools.</p>

[sakky]

<p>
[quote]
How much does the brand name actually help you in employment?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's helpful in two clear ways:</p>

<p>*Many companies recruit only at certain schools. For example, if you want to get a job at an elite venture capital or private equity firm, you basically have to go to one of only a handful of top schools, because that's the only place they do any recruiting. They won't be recruiting at, say, Southeast Missouri State University.</p>

<p>Now, to be clear, that's not to say that you will automatically get the job if you do go to one of their target schools. Those schools grant interviews to only a minority of interested students, and will actually grant job offers to a minority of that minority. But you certainly won't get the job if you can't even meet them in the first place. </p>

<ul>
<li>Much (probably most) hiring is done through social networks. Surely we've all heard the phrase: "It's not what you know, it's who you know." The reality of this world is that many (probably most) jobs are not filled through open competition and open job specifications, but are rather filled through inside contacts. In fact, the first thing that any job-search book or website will tell you is to use your network, because it is the most efficient way to find a job. The result of that is that you won't even know about most available jobs because they are available only to insiders. Whether we agree with it or not, that is how labor markets work.<br></li>
</ul>

<p>The clearest example is Steve Ballmer. How exactly did he become the CEO of Microsoft, or more specifically, how did he ever get hired by Microsoft in the first place? The answer seems to be quite simple: he was Bill Gates's old poker-playing pal in Currier House at Harvard. I think there is little dispute that if Ballmer had never gone to Harvard, he would never have met Bill Gates, and hence he wouldn't be the billionaire head of Microsoft right now, as Gates would have simply hired one of his other friends.</p>

[adamonkey2]

<p>idk...a harvard medical school grad plastic surgeon sounds much much better than any normal plastic surgeon...</p>

[galoisien]

<p>sakky: ah, the first is what I thought, and I suppose I can agree with the second. But are you really shut out of good networks if you go to a no-name school? If you excelled at your no-name school, wouldn't you eventually be sent to visiting programmes, etc. where you would meet better peers? If you became a regular correspondent on an academic mailing list (e.g. for linguistics, the American Dialect Society), couldn't you I suppose, eventually "hook up" with other like-minded individuals there?</p>

<p>But suppose you went to Podunk for a bachelor's -- what would you have to do to "break in" to say, a fairly closed scene like the first scenario described above? Become well-published in economics?</p>

<p>
[quote]
idk...a harvard medical school grad plastic surgeon sounds much much better than any normal plastic surgeon...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To the public eye -- but how much of it matters when you meet your employer? How much of it is just for your family to boast about at gatherings?</p>

[wayward_trojan]

<p>adamonkey2 is obviously talking out of his ass. Medical school rankings are completely different. If you are interested in research and publication, the Ivies are probably the best place for you. If you simply want to practice medicine, then it does not matter where you go, as the boards standardize your education. Likewise, your successful acceptance into a residency in plastic surgery, for instance, depends more on your performance on the medical boards and in school.</p>

<p>This should be rather obvious, as the stakes of medical training are so high, it would stand to reason that medical schools provide the same education irrespective of rank and not differ substantially in the quality of education offered. I wish I could say the same for law schools, but then again, the proverbial bar for a JD is vastly lower than for an MD...</p>

[sakky]

<p>
[quote]
sakky: ah, the first is what I thought, and I suppose I can agree with the second. But are you really shut out of good networks if you go to a no-name school? If you excelled at your no-name school, wouldn't you eventually be sent to visiting programmes, etc. where you would meet better peers? If you became a regular correspondent on an academic mailing list (e.g. for linguistics, the American Dialect Society), couldn't you I suppose, eventually "hook up" with other like-minded individuals there?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody is ever completely shut out of top networks. Obviously there are many ways to build a good network, with attending a top school being only one method. </p>

<p>But school is a particularly easy way to establish strong social links. After all, you aren't just corresponding with people on a professional level. You actually live with them for several years. Hence, it's far more powerful than, say, working with a bunch of people, because after work, you (presumably) all go home. As a student, your college is your home. </p>

<p>As a parallel example, numerous scholars (i.e. Saxenian) have investigated why Silicon Valley is such a powerful regional cluster of technological innovation and, more importantly, why other regions in the world have yet to replicate it despite repeated attempts. What they have discovered is that the innovative backbone of Silicon Valley is seeded through informal social networks that are extremely difficult to enter if you aren't yourself located in the Valley. This is why people are willing to pay high prices to live in boring Silicon Valley when, frankly, I think almost everybody in the Valley would prefer to live elsewhere (i.e. in San Francisco, which offers a far more interesting lifestyle than the Valley does). They don't move because they don't want to be cut off from those social networks. Tech columnists like Paul Graham have even outwardly said that the very first thing every startup entrepreneur should do is immediately move to Silicon Valley. I think that illustrates just how important social networks are and how difficult it is to access them if you're not immersed within them. </p>

<p>Why</a> to Move to a Startup Hub</p>

<p>None of that is to say that you can't break into social networks form the outside. It's just harder. So the question then becomes, why make things harder than they have to be? Getting a top job is already hard enough to begin with, and you don't want to make things even harder on yourself. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But suppose you went to Podunk for a bachelor's -- what would you have to do to "break in" to say, a fairly closed scene like the first scenario described above? Become well-published in economics?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nah, a better strategy would be to simply transfer to a better school. Or go to a top graduate school.</p>

[sakky]

<p>
[quote]
idk...a harvard medical school grad plastic surgeon sounds much much better than any normal plastic surgeon...</p>

<p>To the public eye -- but how much of it matters when you meet your employer? How much of it is just for your family to boast about at gatherings?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, to this specific example, I would say that it matters quite a bit. Let's face it. Plastic surgeons market themselves to the public at large. That's how they generate clientele for their practices, because nobody really "needs" plastic surgery, and so you have to generate client interest through strong marketing. It's easier to market yourself as a 'top' plastic surgeon if you can say that you went to Harvard. </p>

<p>As an example, consider Dr. Scott Hyver, who prominently lists his Harvard MD credential on his website. Granted, he's not a plastic surgeon (he's a LASIK surgeon), but the general principle is still the same: he's trying to market himself to the public in the best way he can, and, whether we like it or not, Harvard has the best brand name in education. If he had gotten his MD from, say, the University of South Alabama, somehow I don't think he would be listing that credential on the frontpage of his website. </p>

<p>San</a> Francisco LASIK - San Jose LASIK - Custom Wavefront Laser Eye Surgery and Vision Correction</p>

<p>Now, if we were talking about a medical specialty that doesn't market itself to the public at large, then I would tend to agree with you that the brand name of your med school probably doesn't matter much.</p>

[galoisien]

<p>The primary advantage of brand-name education (on top of quality of faculty and whatnot) then is social networking, then? I suppose this is an interesting way to approach the process of applications...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Now, if we were talking about a medical specialty that doesn't market itself to the public at large, then I would tend to agree with you that the brand name of your med school probably doesn't matter much.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But in the link you cited, he seems to be self-employed.</p>

<p>The idea of self-employed doctors didn't occur to me; maybe it's because I was born in a country where nearly all doctors get hired by big university or government hospitals and doctors rarely establish their own practices, unless they're into pseudoscientific treatments like [url=<a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29554%5DMagnaSoles(tm)%5B/url"&gt;http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29554]MagnaSoles(tm)[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. (But it was a "duh" moment -- I see them all the time, especially in my somewhat rural state.)</p>

[jessiehl]

<p>
[quote]
The primary advantage of brand-name education (on top of quality of faculty and whatnot) then is social networking, then?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know that I'd call it the primary advantage of education at such a school, but it's certainly one of the most obvious benefits of the name alone.</p>

[Dad_II]

<p>Had a quick conversation the other day with someone who went to PHYS level elite school. What he said is this: where you go to college is a personal experience, it is part of your life and in certain way, it defines who you are. It really does not matter that much in term of job, family or money. </p>

<p>Even after 20 years, he still have frequent contacts with good friends made during the college years. </p>

<p>So, I would say that the internal ability and drive are what make a person success or not. However, 4 years of undergraduate at one of these very best colleges should be a life time experience. The brand name or network will definitely help, too.</p>

[Bay]

<p>When you don't have any personal recommendations, the brand-name can be the default selection criteria when hiring a professional. (We have moved quite a bit, so this applied to us). For example, I chose my children's orthodontist because he is a Harvard grad. We try to choose dentists from USC dental school because we have confidence in that program. As a matter of course, I always check the academic credentials of physicians I see.</p>

[sakky]

<p>
[quote]
The primary advantage of brand-name education (on top of quality of faculty and whatnot) then is social networking, then? I suppose this is an interesting way to approach the process of applications..

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Like I said before, I'm sure you've heard the saying: "It's not what you know, it's who you know." The most effective way to get a job is through personal contacts. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But in the link you cited, he seems to be self-employed.</p>

<p>The idea of self-employed doctors didn't occur to me; maybe it's because I was born in a country where nearly all doctors get hired by big university or government hospitals and doctors rarely establish their own practices, unless they're into pseudoscientific treatments like MagnaSoles(tm). (But it was a "duh" moment -- I see them all the time, especially in my somewhat rural state.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, all I can tell you about is the US system, and in this system, most experienced doctors are self-employed in one way or another: either by working as independent contractors to hospital(s), or by marketing their services directly to the public in the case of Dr. Hyver. In the case of the latter, it is clearly highly useful to have a brand name that the public recognizes.</p>