How much of a factor is the quality of the high school?

Parent Cafe
41

blossom,
'I am not impressed with a HS ranked #2 in the state where all that’s required to maintain a 4.0 GPA is to turn homework in on time. Maybe it’s me. "

  • As far as I am aware, it is just you. Nobody who knows D’s HS where some kids travel from other state on the daily basis, nobody has any doubts about it. However, generally speaking, no school can go outside of the curriculum too much as they will not get certification and unfortunately, again, generally speaking, the k -12 has been brought down so much that the only thing that is required to be a success at ANY of the HS in the USA is to turn in your homework on time. These includes the best of the best schools, specifically I am familiar with the test-ins in the NYC where there are 30 applicants to one spot. Both of my grandkids at 2 of these extremely hard to get in HSs accomplishing their 90+ %'s by doing just that - doing homework and doing it well and turning it on time, at least that is what my grandS said when I complimented him: " just doing my homework!" Well, maybe in some future when the quality of k - 12 is actually brought to much higher level to level it off with other schools in the world, then maybe the genius would require to get 4.0, but the current low academic level does not need it.
    With all that said above, my D. was actually the only one in her class who had 4.0, nobody else did. I guess, others did not have a habit of turning in their homework on time…
42

I don’t put too much stock in the high school rankings. I just looked at US News rankings for Texas, and most Texas residents in the know about the quality of high schools would disagree with those rankings. I believe that adcoms are familiar with the quality of top high schools and will give a serious look to students further down in the rankings at schools that have a strong reputation for being rigorous and competitive than lesser high schools.

43

@MiamiDAP, as a graduate of one of the test-in schools in NYC, that is not even remotely the truth. I received an amazing education at my specialized high school, which prepared me well for an elite undergrad and grad. My classmates, many of whom I have remained friends with, will tell you the same. Classes were very challenging even for the brightest students. Homework was but a small fraction of the final grade. While this was decades ago, rather than become easier, the school has become more competitive.

At my D’s high school, the competition is fierce and gets more so with each graduating class. Homework is only worth 10-15% of the grade, so no way is doing homework alone good enough to get an A.

44

We really don’t know yet, because she doesn’t know what she wants to do/be yet.

She’s very stressed over the idea that at 15 she’s supposed to have found an all consuming passion, and I totally understand that. She likes and is interested in a lot of things, so it’s been hard for her to want to specialize in one thing.

It’ll definitely be some sort of a liberal-ish LAC, not all girls, probably within a day’s drive of wherever we end up living (ie the southeast). I can see her majoring in history, marketing, or something where she writes a lot and gets to tell people what to do and organize things, because she’s social, beautiful, and bossy, but not in a popular girl “on Wednesdays we wear pink” kind of way.

Yeah, that had been my argument after freshman year when her grades were meh, but the regular chem class she’s taking this year is very lab-oriented, which she absolutely loves. Her peers who are in honors chem are bemoaning how much reading they’re doing and how boring it is-so for next year I amended my “harder is more interesting” stance because she seems to be immensely engaged by the “do” part of classes-presentations, labs, projects, etc, and boring does not seem to be the exclusive domain of regular classes, at least at our school.

Thanks for the “Colleges That Change Lives” book recommendation-I will check it out of the library.

45

I’m so, so aggravated by this.

Or MAYBE it’s something else.

The self-aggrandizing tone of every.single.one of your posts absolutely drives me up a wall.

46

I would not adopt a blanket strategy on all classes, and most schools have a thriving gossip culture about who the engaging teachers are, which teachers grade harder, or what the class content is - whether lab or reading or HW. Use it wisely. Also a project-based class with an interesting theme might be OK, it’s not really HW if it’s a project. And if she is social, how about finding a good study group in a few classes (and group projects may be a good thing for her.).

My other comment is while we all have strengths, interests, preferences, dislikes … unfortunately as a parent you need to also bring them into the real world. HW not interesting, do it any way. … college is really tough love, do it or get a D … and some classes are required … some professors are boring or give lots of busy work. Once she leaves home, you are no longer able to help … but right now … time to be strictre.

Junior year also is really tough, so make sure she understands that it is time to step up her game … reward is better choice of schools, less cost, better locations, etc. If she is barely putting in effort … she will end up at a college she may not love … likely for 4 years. It’s just the way it is.

Your last post addresses this, here are my comments before I read it.

For unmotivated but smart or even (maybe especially) gifted students, on grade level non-honors courses could result in even worse performance and with weighting, can only result in worse class rank.

I would think about each class and maybe schedule a quick discussion with each teacher to properly place your daughter. It is no great secret she is slacking on homework, but maybe they have some specific hints or can weigh that in their recommendation.

I know my S and luckily as early as 1st grade they tested him for on grade and GT math, and he did better on the GT exam, likely because it was more interesting. I have also put him in all GT classes, and he gets mostly As some Bs, but he is interested, participates in class, reads the books, etc … regular non-honors classes are often filled with lots of slackers, are taught by less engaged teachers, have more, not less busy work.

And you have the fact that GT, honors, AP classes get up to 1.0 full higher weighing (meaning an A is a 5, B is a 4, C is a 3) … which can really help that B be an actual A.

47

Unfortunately at our school you don’t get to pick your teachers, and unless you’re prepared for a pitched battle, you don’t get to pick your classes, either. Right now D1 has an 87 in AP Calc AB and they’re not letting her continue next year into BC because the requirement is 94 or better. My over-ride on that one was rejected, and D1 said “let it go, I’ll take AP Stats and have some breathing room”. For D2 (the subject of this thread) it was even worse last year-they tried to put her in a science class that she had already taken back in 8th grade when she got a 78 in honors bio as a freshman. I had to go all the way to the principal, twice (first time the paperwork mysteriously disappeared) just to get her in regular chem class.

As for strict-she hasn’t seen her phone in six months, we made her get rid of all her social media over winter break (we watched her do it), and she has to show us all completed homework every night-this is a recent one for us that we started in February, and it seems to be working well because the onus is on her to prove to us that there is NO homework in every class (she shows us the online page for each class).

It is exhausting and draining for us to spend serious time each night, every night, going through her homework with her, having her discover stuff she “forgot”, having her protest that it’s too late, us saying “suck it up buttercup”, her complaining the entire time, then showing us the completed work after two or three “oh I didn’t see that one” attempts.

We fear that if we’re still doing this when she’s a senior, there’s no point in sending her to college because we’re not breathing down her neck when she’s there, and if she can’t be successful without us, then she’s not ready. The breathing down the neck is working in terms of grades, but we’re concerned that this is not a good long-term tactic for her-we would happily do this every night if we knew this would work and a lightbulb would go on between now and senior year, but we’re worried that it’s not going to have any long term benefits.

I feel a little sheepish that I’ve gotten so specific about D2’s circumstances-the whole class rank thing was really startling to see and I was wondering how much it hurts kids who are like my kid.

48

My son ended up choosing a small LAC which is, I think, liberalish. He is someone who really needs a smaller environment where familiarity comes a little more quickly. He just needs to achieve a comfort level in order to succeed. We found a bunch of places that were delighted to have him and are affordable. May I respectfully suggest to you McDaniel College in Maryland? They accepted and were generous to my son. Wonderful place, gorgeous campus. He decided not to attend because he wants the 150 hour CPA degree, which they don’t have, but it was a very special place and known for academic support. Also, there were several places in Pennsylvania which he loved (one of which he chose!). I think your daughter is going to be just fine and plenty successful. I don’t believe that high school is the be-all and end-all.

49

you know how one gets merit at most state u’s?

they meet criteria…SAT thresholds and GPA’s. its pretty straightforward–many of them spell out the requirements on their websites. its pretty much strictly a numbers game…so far i havent seen any with the criteria that must be met of curing cancer or building a clean water source in africa or finding a new molecule.

often you’ll see a topXX% of class criteria.

you know what you DONT see?

the rank of your HS. they could care less if you went to #1 in the state or #5000. as long as you are an accepted student and hit the numbers that are required for whichever scholarship one is aiming for.

the important thing is not so much worrying about a HS rank, but concerning oneself with their own education and personal stats…

ps: there is often enormous personal growth over the summer between 10th-11th grad. fingers crossed you are pleasantly surprised by your D next fall.

50

Miami- sorry to disappoint you but I’ve got nieces and nephews in test-in schools in NYC, Boston, and other cities and not a single one of them would tell you that to get a 4.0 average all that’s required is to turn in your homework.

Tell that to someone at Boston Latin. They will howl with laughter.

If your D rose the top of a HS which only required handing in homework to become Val- I’d stop bragging about it.

OP- I’m with the group that thinks you might see a lot of maturing in the next few months. And I’d definitely be in the “pick your battles” phase of parenting. Not every single bit of homework is worth a battle royal at home.

Your D sounds fabulous by the way!

51

I have good reason for believing quality of high school matters. My gifted child had peers in our local elementary school, but given my busy schedule, I just “had” to send her to a private school from middle school on. When I started, I thought it was just a matter of me not having time for enrichment and paying attention to teachers. A great middle and high school is so much more. They challenge students with meaningful work, expanded way beyond handing in homework. They develop problem solving, not regurg. More than helping students get into colleges with aid, they prepar students for a rich life of the mind.

For example one of her peers in the public high at a 104 average in AP Euro; my daughter scrapped her way to an 92 with great effort. Her friend got a 3 and DD got a 5. DD had learned all sorts of intellectual strategies in addition to the basics of the AP exam. As a senior, DD had a range of great acceptances and scholarships, now attending a HYPS. The Val and Sal at the decent public HS, where she might have gone, go to Cornell and RPI, good, but still not the same as the top 10% at the private school

As a leftie, I hate that so many public schools have so little commitment to excellence. As a professor, I see the consequences: Kids who think knowledge means handing in homework, students who don’t understand the difference between research and reports, smart kids who have never learned how to study (or the rewards of work). I do think many college admission officers know about the relative quality of schools in their area.

52

@MotherOfDragons Absolutely consider the CTCL. Not only do they have holistic admissions (which is much less “woo” than it sounds) but many of them would be overcome with drool for some good SAT scores. They also are smaller schools and they encourage the kids NOT to know what they want to do with their lives…kids don’t need to pick a major (or have any leanings at all if they don’t want to) until the end of their sophomore years.

If it helps, there’s a website just about CTCL, and I believe it’s got links/lists of the individual schools.

www.ctcl.org

53

National publication rankings of high schools mean very little. The quality of an applicants high school can matter a lot, but it depends on the colleges to which the applicant is applying. Most competitive colleges have experienced people on the admissions committee who know the quality of students who traditionally graduate near the top of certain high schools and college prep schools that continually graduate very strong students. Many have relationships with the college counselors and put substantial faith in their recommendations - they know the counselor will not risk her reputation just to get a student from her school into that college. That kind of trust is built up over time.

54

Also, don’t high school rankings mostly measure the strength of the students (e.g. number who take AP courses or tests, or going to college) rather than the instruction or curriculum?

For example, it seems common to read here about having to do additional studying for SAT subject or AP tests after taking the high school course that the test is associated with. When I was in high school decades ago, when only about a third went to four year colleges (with more going to the community college), it was sufficient to just complete the associated high school course (not necessarily the AP course) for the SAT subject test and the associated AP course for the AP test, without additional studying beyond that for the course. So it seems that instruction and curriculum may have declined in quality over the decades if people feel the need to do additional studying for such tests.

So if a high school has 99% going on to college, but they all feel that they have to cram for the SAT subject and AP tests in addition to taking the associated course, that calls into question how good the instruction and curriculum at the high school actually is.

55

@ucbalumnus That’s like saying having to study for finals in college shows that the quality of the instruction is not great. Yet most students study for finals. At least those that want to do well do.

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I went to a public school that was ranked #29 in the nation at the time of my graduation. I would like to think it helped me get into the schools I did, but it clearly wasn’t a huge of a boost as I may have initially expected/hoped. Otherwise, I may have had at least one more acceptance letter in hand. My school didn’t rank.

57

There is a difference between doing a little review before the test and doing a lot of cramming because one slacked off on reading the books, etc. during the semester. Seemed to me that the top students in college stayed on top of their classes through the semester, so that they did not have to do that much studying for the final exam.

58

@MotherOfDragons, you could have been describing my oldest, down to the exhausting process of trying to get him to turn in homework.

I’m not sure what happened but things were better junior year and great senior year. I think he matured and figured out that he needed to get his crap together. Sophomore year English was terrible. He and the teacher were not a good match. But he loved chemistry and we sent him to chemistry camp that summer. He loved it and met some really great kids.

He graduated in the top 40% of his class and I think his gpa rose to a 3.4 unweighted. He had a 30 on his act and got into several state schools and several technical universities. His only honors classes were math because he doubled up sophomore year and ap physics.

Anyways his experience mirrored many of his classmates at his highly regarded, highly ranked public school. Many, many of the kids who did not shine in high school, did really well once they got to college. Because they went to a school which was college oriented, even the kids who didn’t do great in HS, were really prepared in college. That first semester of college, s got a 3.9 and was inducted into a honor society. His college career was stellar, he got a great internship.

Now that kid who we dispaired of in high school is out of college. Has a great job, makes really good money and is engaged to a wonderful girl that shares his major and they met in college. He’s quite the success story.

I hope the same path for your D. Hope she matures and figures out that she needs to do, she knows she’s smart enough, she just needs to get her plan together.

59

@ucbalumnus Your initial post made no distinction between what you are now calling a “little review” and “do[ing] additional studying.” Studying and reviewing are the same thing in my opinion. Having to teach yourself the material because you didn’t learn it or it wasn’t taught during the term is different.

60

For reasons of familiarity with the scenario of solid study and long term mastery of in-school curriculum which prepares one to successfully sit for exams with simple revisiting, or constructive review, if you will, ucbalumnus makes perfectly good sense.

For recent exposure to a bright, high-achieving student (my daughter) who is the epitome of the student who does neither cram nor (and I have worried at this but been proven to have done so unnecessarily) study, I can also lend a nod to ucb`s post.

I do not contend that one should not review, so do not fail to note that. But extra preparation where classroom instruction, quizes, exams and homework were all successfully navigated have proven to be all this student has needed.

She recently had an online discussion with another student she will meet face-to-face this weekend at an HYPS admit gathering who told her that the particular summer prep course that kids from prep schools in their area attend was a big waste of money, and made for very onerous learning conditions.