Class Rank in Highly Competitive High School

Parents Forum
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<p>My kids attend a highly competitive private high school--99% of the students here go on to 4-year colleges, of which about 90% or more are out-of-state schools. They have a lot of AP courses offered (about 15). </p>

<p>The "problem" is that the grading is very tough so that folks who are in the 98-99%tile for SATs (total over 2200 new) & ACTs (composite 34), with 4s & 5s on their APs often have weighted GPAs around 3.5 and are considered in the middle of the 200 person class! This is my son's current profile (tho he should be able to bring up his GPA & also somewhat raise his class rank), since he's taking 5 APs for his senior year + marching band. (He took 4 AP exams this past year & got 5 in Physics B, 5 in Computers, 5 in English Language & 4 in US History.)</p>

<p>This makes it pretty confusing to apply to colleges. On the one hand, the college counselor who is retiring (after 30+ years) says that if you're not in the top or at least 2nd decile in rank, you can forget about getting into the most selective colleges HYP. The newer college counselor (who is a former admissions officer from UC Davis) says that class rank is not all that important given the school's reputation & the difficulty of courses taken.</p>

<p>We went to the pediatrician today for son's physical (son will be senior this year). The pediatrician has a daughter who just graduated from Boston U, daughter who is a junior at Redlands & his son who will be freshman at NYU (turned down USoCal), & will be helping daughter apply to colleges this fall, including USanDiego. He says that he believes that (given son's scores & grades) my son should easily get in at NYU, USC, and most schools in spite of his lowly class rank. He believes my son has a good chance for substantial merit aid, like the 50% merit awards his kids got (who went to different private high school). [Like many here, we will not qualify for any need aid, but would love it if he got some good merit aid. (He should be at least a commended National Merit, if not higher--he's "on the bubble.")] </p>

<p>Just confused and curious. Son also has some ECs (will be an Eagle Scout, few sports, some volunteer work, youth leader for confirmation class, band 7-12 grades).</p>

<p>Any thoughts? Have others had this problem? It seems that kids from his high school get into the full range of colleges, including some who go to HYPs, etc. I pointed out to hubby if we went by what all the schools write on their publicity that they take mostly the upper decile or two, the majority of his school would have nowhere to attend.</p>

<p>Anyway, thoughts about class rank in a highly competitive school such as the one my kids are attending would be really appreciated. Son is most interested in East & West Coasts.</p>

<p>HImom</p>

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<p>Does your S's school provide scattergrams or "action reports" that show where kids have been accepted in recent years with similar SAT's and GPA's. This would be your best indication of where he might be accepted.</p>

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<p>At my school, which is one of the most competitive prep boarding schools in the Country, the top third gets into the top 10 colleges. Colleges know such high schools. The exception is numbers driven State schools, you can have a problem getting into some of those that simply don't know. A 3.5, 2200 can get into NYU and USC from a competitive HS, but I woldn't count on merit money, I think you need a lower tier school for that.</p>

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<p>when your son applies to college your school will send the college profile. The profile will give information as the % of students that attend 4 year colleges/universities, what schools they attend as well as average SAT scores , the school's grading structure and curriculum offered. He will be evaluated based on takingthe most rigerous curriculm that his school offers and doing well in those classes.</p>

<p>An overwhelming number of schools do not rank. Can your son get into NYU and USC > Most likely but also be aware the both schools have have reputations for not giving good financial aid. NYU gaps as they do not meet 100% of your demonstrated need.Their biggest scholarship is $25,000 OF A $40,000+ price tag. In addition they will be heavy on loans and workstudy. </p>

<p>I would not look for substantial merit aid from NYU, apply with the mindset that you will write your check for the full amount and if anything comes, it will be gravy. There are however a number of school where your son would be in line for merit aid based solely on his scores and grades. You and he will have to sit together to build a list according to what he is looking for/needs in a school.</p>

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<p>Sounds like my older son - high SAT, lots of ECs and leadership, but grades were good not great at a very strong HS. We found that the grades did indeed hurt. He was deferred ED from Penn and upon calling was told that the GPA was the problem. Didn't get into any reaches. The fact that the HS was highly competitive didn't move anyone apparently; they want the best even within the best schools.</p>

<p>But I don't want to be a downer. Son did get into his match schools with merit $ and after a year transferred to one of his dream schools. So you just have to give it the old college try to coin a phrase.</p>

<p>Your son also might get a small bump for being from Hawaii at some Eastern schools.</p>

<p>I wouldn't hesitate to have this young man apply to any school and it sounds like he'd have a genuine shot anywhere short of Harvard, Yale, and a couple others. Good luck.</p>

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<p>HIMom, best of luck. This is a prime example of why I think that ranking should be done away with.</p>

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<p>He needs solid safeties/matches to play his strong geography card. Try to get him to define what he wants in a college atmosphere - urban vs rural, size, engineering yes/no, Greeks?, proximity to a major airport, etc, and build his list that way. If he concentrates on finding out what he wants out of college and what he thinks a college should be like, rather than on selectivity, his list should shake out OK.</p>

<p>The time to consider selectivity is when he is actually narrowing down the list to the 4-6-8-10 how many ever applications he is actually going to submit. Based on his criteria and preferences, are there enough safeties? Is he satisfied with the safeties?</p>

<p>If there is a family need for merit money, then a strategy based purely on the preferences of the student won't work. If you have a high EFC, you and Dad should decide how much you are willing to spend on college, and which colleges you are willing to spend that money on - for example, in our case, there was a high EFC, DH and I were willing to pay full freight for our daughter's first choices, but when she was ranking matches and safeties, we insisted she include schools that she liked that had a reputation for good merit aid - unlike <em>NYU</em>.</p>

<p>Finally, for safety's sake, I would try to keep my thinking in the plane of the retiring GC with 30 years experience, it will help prevent disappointment, keep everyone's feet on the ground, and keep the true goal - finding a school that is right for your son and his situation - in front of you. Good luck!</p>

<p>Oh, and it is OK to heed the Pediatrician with practical experience - notice that HYPS was nowhere on his family's list, and the merit aid is true too, it just won't be from a tippy top private school. My daughter became interested in her future college after a trip to the dentist, she wouldn't hear of it when I mentioned it!</p>

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<p>My sons' school eliminated class rank several years ago, precisely for the reasons you mention. They felt that their 100th kid was still better than the local public HS 3rd kid.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your thoughts. They are helpful. Not sure how the merit aid will play out & like others have posted, it may depend on how prestigious the school is as to how much everyone is willing to pay. The pediatrician's son is getting 50% merit aid from NYU & seems to think my son has a good shot at substantial merit aid there too, so who knows? We'll tour there next month anyway.</p>

<p>One other thing about my son is that he's had substantial health challenges (wholly unrelated to school), which have made him have to do a LOT of his studying independently (has missed over 140 days of school total in 3 years & EVERYONE at the school is amazed he's been able to do as well as he is with these absences--counselors & teachers). He'll probably mention it somewhere on his application--perhaps in the section where the student writes "more about me," or something. The counselor says he'll probably mention it somewhere in writing about my son as well.</p>

<p>The school does provide a chart by GPA of where various kids in the school are going by GPA (not test score--2230 SAT new, 1530 old, ACT 34). The other exclusive private in our state has eliminated rank, but the son my kids are at keeps it. The new counselor says because his test scores are so high, he may get into schools which usually accept kids with higher GPAs & said that state schools especially will like his test scores & GPA combo (more 'numbers driven').</p>

<p>The physics book they use for AP Physics B is the textbook at USC & they cover it in it's entirety + "doc" is a PhD & give optional lectures on new developments in physics since the books publication as well. The prof goes around the US & world giving classes on how to teach science & physics. His students have 85% who get 5s on the physics AP compared with 15% nationally. Son enjoyed "doc" so much he's taking AP Physics C from him, son even enjoys the optional lectures when he can fit them in. "Doc" says son is one of the brightest kids, tho health challenges have made it tough for him.</p>

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<p>The only thing with so-so grades and a high SAT score is that the college may wonder if your S is an underachiever or a slacker. (because in general SATs = potential; grades = performance.) I think it would be important to make sure the GC and the teacher recs put this possible misinterpretation to rest. Absolutely mention the missed class time that is a very strong mitigating factor. If it could be mentioned from the point of view that "NEVER has a kid missed equivalent class time yet done so well" that might help.</p>

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<p>Class rank is evaluated relative to the particular high school. So the chart of acceptances sorted by GPA from your son's prep school and the wisdom of the veteran GC should be your guide to a realistic college list.</p>

<p>When evaluating that chart of acceptances, don't forget to consider the implications of race, athletics, and legacies. You will need to throw out some of the data points from students competing in a completely different applicant pool than your son may be in.</p>

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<p>Even if your school doesn't rank, the GCs are asked to estimate which decile or quartile the applicants would fall into. Selective colleges will dig deeper into the ranks of a known tough school (and, conversely, only skim the cream off high schools that are only academically middling at the best). Still, selective schools will have a floor in mind, even for tough schools, as Roscoe's son found out.</p>

<p>Re health issues: we've had other posters with health problems who have gone off to college away from home and had run into problems. Getting new doctors, not having the same support network when you get sick, etc. Is he going to be able to go to college away from home? </p>

<p>If yes, you may want to consider something on the West Coast rather than the East Coast. UC Santa Barbara has a fantastic physics program that you may want to look at. UCs for out of state is tougher, but it isn't impossible, especially with high test scores. University of San Diego gives pretty good merit aid (from my experience with local kids who go there), but I don't know about their physics program. </p>

<p>I just don't know if I'd feel comfortable sending a kid with major health problems all the way across the country.</p>

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<p>Thanks--we are thinking about that. We have family in SF & best friend in Pasadena, so CA would provide a lot of support in CA if he has health challenges. The high school GC suggested he consider engineering & perhaps UCIrvine. Doc has made physics interesting for all the kids, but son likes all sciences & is OK with math too (had great bio teacher too & eccentric chem teacher). My friend's son is loving UCSB; thanks for the suggestion.</p>

<p>GC also suggested Harvey Mudd (tho I was thinking that's a big reach) & USoCal (new engineering building & good dept). He also suggested UCDavis (where he had worked) & OSU & Loyola Marymount & UCSD USD. I'm thinking maybe UOregon Honors (my alma mater) as a safety. Lots of kids from his school are also at USantaClara too.</p>

<p>We told son he can always transfer or go to grad school on the East Coast if his health is robust. Don't think we'll qualify for ANY need aid, but he has younger sister who is rising sophomore, also in same private school with $12,000+/year tuition.</p>

<p>One problem with physics is few/no jobs in HI, if he wants to return (but limited jobs in many professions here anyway). My best friend is a physicist & had to move to Los Alamos, where she, physicist hubby & many others are at the nuclear lab there.
HImom</p>

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<p>Is a top private school in Hawaii really just $12K/yr. We on the mainland are led to believe that Hawaii is so expensive. That's about half of what we pay. I'm packing!</p>

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<p>HiMom, My daughter is in a very similar situation at her high school to your son. I don't know what the answer is except to make sure he has some solid matches and good safeties on his list. I would, however, agree with the guidance counselor's assessment that USC is a match for him. Less sure about NYU just because their admissions results often confuse me.</p>

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<p>To get a better idea what the school does with these students, call the guidance counselor and ask for a copy of the "profile" that the GC sends with the letters that go to the colleges. On the profile, the school lists all kinds of things including # of AP classes offered, type of school, % students going on to colleges and, most importantly, the colleges (with the number of students) to which students from the school have been accepted in the previous 5 years. The CC at my D's small highly competitive HS also prepared a sheet for parents that divided the GPA into general categories (A to A-, B+ to B, etc) and listed the colleges underneath each category to which students with these GPAs had been accepted. This was very helpful to us. And, although the school doesn't officially rank, it always sends a histogram of GPA's to the colleges so the college does know where the student ranks in the class. Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Even if your school doesn't rank, the GCs are asked to estimate which decile or quartile the applicants would fall into.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That may be true for some schools, but it is not true for ours. They will not give that, or any other estimated figure.</p>

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<p>In A is for Admission, the former Dartmouth adcom tells of the formulas they have for schools that don't rank. Of course they have a firm idea of where every applicant is at schools that don't rank.</p>

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<p>Admissions at NYU vary by school with Tisch, Stern and CAS being more competitive and harder to get into than Gallatin, Steinhardt and wagner. </p>

<p>Their tuition and FA also varies by each school with Tisch and Stern among the more "expensive" schools</p>

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<p>Actually, one of the reasons HI is so expensive is the mismatch LOW salaries & HIGH costs. Many folks here have food service & other service/tourist jobs. Many folks here are over-qualified for their jobs. LOTS of clerical aids here have college degrees, etc. It is not uncommon for engineers here to earn about $30,000-$40,000 & top out not much higher. Many lawyers & teachers start at similar salaries. Pharmacists get about $27/hour. Of course, there are some folks who earn a good deal more, including realtors, MDs, profs, coaches, government department heads, etc.</p>

<p>Most private school tuitions are somewhere under $15,000/year, plus additional expenses for trips, uniforms, etc. The public schools here regularly lose most of their top students to private schools for many reasons, so many of us pay years of private tuition--even if you live in a GOOD public school district. Housing is quite outrageous, especially rents. Food costs are also really high, with milk about $6+/gallon & tomatoes about $3-4/pound.</p>