How much prestige matters--from a former member of the Stanford admissions committee

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>The following was posted this morning in the College Search and Selection forum, and I thought you guys might find it interesting.</p>

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/544817-why-choose-prestigious-university-3.html?p=1060920906%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/544817-why-choose-prestigious-university-3.html?p=1060920906&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>While NOT taking a position on what kilbeez posted, I do find their posting history interesting. One would think someone who signed up in 2006 with a history such as the one they describe would have found time to make a helpful post or two on the boards. Maybe this will tempt them to be a more active participant.</p>

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<p>What I find most amusing is that the poster purports to be a former Stanford Med adcom member and yet shares absolutely no insider insights. What would've been more interesting would be a posting on what really goes on when the adcom members meet. Instead, the post is filled with speculation and commonly known/cited statistics (some of which are dubious). </p>

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One person trained under the best people in the field, the other person got a second rate education. They probably can both take care of patients equally well, they may have the same scores on licensing exams, equal number of publications, etc. but the first person is going to get the spot every time.

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<p>Person 2 got a second rate education and yet can take care of patients equally well, got the same score on the USMLE's, and has the same number of publications. So, the education is second rate because...?</p>

<p>Yea, if two applicants have the same application, the one from the more prestigous school would get picked. This doesn't imply that prestige is important. Only that if 5 or 6 other factors are tied, then prestige becomes a factor.</p>

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<p>I believe that much of the high representation of HYPS undergrads at top medical schools rests with the factors that got them into those colleges in the first place: drive, ambition, talent, high grades, and high test scores. Fill a university with people like that, and you will have lots of them going to medical school. The question people want answered is whether an INDIVIDUAL with a given level of ambition, focus, and test taking ability will enhance his/her medical school prospects by attending a prestigious college. That is not so clear. </p>

<p>Do students from UA with equivalent grades and MCATs get in top medical schools less often than Harvard grads? I don't know. </p>

<p>I do believe it is unfair to lump Alabama in with a Caribbean medical school and community hospital residency. There are lots of state college grads in medical schools all over the country, including the top ones.</p>

<p>I would agree that if you are emerging from a community hospital residency you have virtually no chance at a fellowship in a competitive area at a top hospital. But if you graduate normally from an American medical school then you would only take the community residency if that is what you wanted.</p>

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<p>This doesn't particularly disagree with what we've been saying here on the boards for a while, it's just different in tone. Our argument has always been that while medical school placement could matter if you're looking for the really elite residency programs, there's usually no reason to look for those if you just want to be a practicing physician.</p>

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<p>agree with bdm.</p>

<p>to norcalguy, why are we assuming the person from alabama can take care of patients as well as the johns hopkins person? what if all graduates from alabama turned out to be bad, second rate docs?</p>

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to norcalguy, why are we assuming the person from alabama can take care of patients as well as the johns hopkins person? what if all graduates from alabama turned out to be bad, second rate docs?

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<p>Because that's what the original post assumed. Read the part I quoted.</p>

<p>What if all graduates from Johns Hopkins turned out to be bad, second rate docs? Where's the evidence that JHU grads are better clinicians than Alabama grads? Carib med schools are not uniform in education quality. I'm not so sure there is much difference in the curricula of US med schools.</p>

<p>70% of the kids at my med school came from a top college or LAC. But, there's no way for me to conclude definitively how much of that is due to the school itself and how much of that is due to the individual. After having gone through premed and professional school admissions, I'm inclined to believe that much of the success is due to the individual. My beef with the post is that a) it doesn't present any insight that we don't know already and b) it doesn't really make a good argument that the school alone is a big factor.</p>

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Some might argue, well they probably have higher MCAT scores. But even adjusted for that, they do better. You may never be able to fully account for the fact that a thriving intellectual/academic environment feeds off itself (i.e. if you see your fellow premeds doing amazing research and volunteer work, you're more likely to do those things, versus your fellow premed classmates are working on their beer pong).

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<p>I'd really like to see his evidence for this.</p>

<p>Overall, yes, the arguments are the same we've made...kind of. </p>

<p>That said...first of all, I don't think any one is arguing that going to Podunk U-Satellite Campus is the same as going to an Ivy League school. (I haven't read the originating thread).</p>

<p>Second, I promise you that the application list of your regular State U pre-med and your Ivy League pre-med (with absolutely equal applications) are not congruent. Even if the State U student is a better applicant, the types of schools they're going to apply to will be different than the less stellar Ivy Leaguer. A portion of that is personality type, a portion of that is peer pressure. While I lack evidence for this, I'm confident that, combined with all the other things we've said about the traits that Ivy League capable students possess, accounts for the overrepresentation seen in the "top" schools.</p>

<p>Third, specialty choice is way more personality driven than prestige based. Even the prestige obsessed pediatricians from "top" schools are not in the same league as the prestige obsessed surgeons from a "lower" school. </p>

<p>Fourth, location is also VERY important in residency decisions. People are older, a number are in long term relationships, many are married, some have kids. It's not the same <em>relative</em> vacuum that undergrad decisions are largely decided within.</p>

<p>Fifth, going to a community based program =/= low quality. In some cases, (ESPECIALLY in surgery where practice makes perfect), you'll emerge from a community based program a better physician than if you were at a university base program. Not having a bunch of fellows or older residents ahead of you in line to take part in a case can mean a significant amount of experience gained. </p>

<p>Bottom line...it's not as cut and dried as he makes it appear. Certainly it's never going to hurt going to a better school, but not doing so (especially when it comes to US med schools and even DO schools) isn't going to unilaterally prevent anyone from being a doctor, keep you from getting into your preferred specialty, or even getting into a competitive fellowship.</p>

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<p>Ummm.... excuse me?
Not everybody can afford an ivy league education, so I'm fairly certain that a public school education is by no means far second-tier.</p>

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<p>
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Fifth, going to a community based program =/= low quality. In some cases, (ESPECIALLY in surgery where practice makes perfect), you'll emerge from a community based program a better physician than if you were at a university base program

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<p>Practice does make better. Most surgery residents get more practice, but perhaps less supervision, at County or VA hospitals. County and VA hospitals are usually affiliated with University residency programs.</p>

<p>Private surgery attendings are happy to have in-house coverage for night time calls, but many are reluctant to allow residents to perform critical procedures. (Think see 200, assist 200, do a few uninsured appy's). On the plus side, private surgery attendings are typically very slick.</p>

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<p>I can say, without any doubt or hesitation, that those comments in OPs post are complete crap. If you have any doubt, then take a look at the match list of underfunded, unknown US allopathic schools. NYMC for instance has a phenomenal match list, and it is no where near the top. Pedigree might matter for law, but its effect in medicine is so minute, it shouldn't even be noted. </p>

<p>What you witness is a matter of self selection- students who would have gotten the UCSF neurosurgery residency are top notch, and would have matched from ANY medical school in the US. I say this as a medical student, someone who personally knows residency directors, and as a person who is just damn tired of hearing the same elitist crap from the same elitist institutions for the past 8 years. </p>

<p>No one will turn down an AOA with a 99 USMLE. People said that where you go for undergrad matters for med school, but from my state school I personally know at least 12 kids who went to top 10 medical programs, 1 with a full ride at Northwestern and 2 full rides at Mayo... and that was just my small circle of friends.</p>

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<p>OK, what a piece of s*** post. Did anyone do a background check on this guy? By admitting he's a Harvard/Stanford alum and a Stanford adcom member is pretty risky if he's going to make such bigoted remarks like this. Honestly, even if what he is saying is true, the way in which he (unsuccessfully) attempts to prove his point is WAY out of line. NO ONE, an adcom member especially, should be bashing on other schools. If he truly is a stanford adcom member, and stanford med caught a whiff of this post, I'm sure he'd be roasted badly. VERY unprofessional post.</p>

<p>As to the validity of the argument, I think it's bogus. Of course Ivy League grads are going to fare better in med school admissions. The fact that they are in the Ivy league in the first place is indicative of the fact that they are just in general very motivated, dedicated, ambitious, and capable students. The students from Ivies who get into top med schools would probably get into those med schools from state schools, mainly because that's just how good they are by nature. School matters very little.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are many people who got into Ivies, but chose to go to a state school (me, for instance). i chose to go to a state school because of a) money, b) location, c) my major is ranked extremely high at my school, d) atmosphere. I go to a UC school, which I guess wouldn't really be looked down upon in admissions since it is a top-ranked public school, but I know people who went to lesser-known public schools for various reasons and would make fine doctors. I don't see why an adcom would penalize someone so badly for choosing a lesser-reputed school, given that there could be a number of reasons for such a decision.</p>

<p>I think that poster is a troll. I simply cannot imagine a Stanford adcom member saying something like that in such a tactless fashion.</p>

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<p>ok,
I went to Stanford and another med school and have been Professor of Surgery and on several admit coms.</p>

<p>Yes, a "top" school gets your folder looked at more than another - ie anticipation of great vs so,so. However, what matters most for surgical training programs is the phone call from "Bob at so and so" who says that Billy is a great guy and that I should take him whereupon I tell him that Susan is applying at his program and she walks on water. So Billy gets accepted at my program and Susan at his.</p>

<p>For med school, there are many more people with a say so the "old boy network" is not quite as important. However, if we have had ten people accepted from school A who have all done well and five from school B who have struggled, then A wins. Basically common sense stuff.</p>

<p>Does it matter if you go to Harvard Surgical Program vs City Hospital Surgical Program? Unless you are doing research, no. Yes, getting a job may be easier from Harvard, but I know as many colleagues from City program as from Harvard, so when they call and say they have a good kid....it means just as much as the Harvard kid.</p>

<p>So final answer. It matters who you have write for you as in all fields. Mentors help. There is an old boy network in medicine as well as in law, etc.</p>

<p>Ivy schools get you a red carpet greeting (I take some applicants out to dinner when they visit) - but you still have to prove yourself. I would rather take a kid from Mex Med school that got As and did something than a guy with bowtie from Harvard who thinks he is hot.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the info & insights!</p>

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<p>It's funny that this post from a while ago, got picked up. The reason that I do not post more frequently, is I am a busy surgical resident. I am past worrying about what college to get into. There are many people who post who have a moderate, balanced view of things based on actual experiences and fact, and people who just blow smoke based on gut instincts of fairness (i.e. I went to this school, and it's not second rate, or I know someone that got into northwestern). I never made any claims about public universities at all, but some people got fixated on that. The reason I have continued interest is that I do college advising and premed advising for free, and participate in interviewing promising students applying to Harvard every year. </p>

<p>Most people, except for a few, stated that despite my post's shortcomings in terms of transparency... (no I am not going to describe what happens behind closed doors into evaluating an individual applicant) my post resonated with "what people already know." And in my mind that acts as a certain litmus test to a "truism." The answer is that you'll never be able to tease out is it the motivated student coming from a good place, or a good place that nurtured and fostered the student, and has an excellent track record. </p>

<p>In the age of grade inflation at many schools, a 3.7 does not mean the same thing everywhere. And the MCAT doesn't illuminate everything. At a party school, you could cruise through with that GPA. I anticipate people will argue that elite schools are not immune, but look at your competition. Calculus and science premed classes will always have a curve. How many of you would rather your curve be full of equally driven or talented people, or less academically gifted students. As a piece of evidence, I know people, we see this all the time, who come from a good school are a french literature major, did pretty well in science in HS, but worry that they can't compete with the physics brainiacs at MIT, but to maintain their gpa, take premed classes at the community college. Just like in a large public HS, surround yourself with less motivated people to make you shine more. Though some have real reasons, i.e. couldn't fit it in their schedule, cheaper credits, most just want to be higher in the curve, go back to high school days where it was easy to be the top 5%, try being the top 5% at MIT. Good luck. </p>

<p>Whether people agree, disagree, like it or not, elite universities will continue to do better with admissions and prestige continues to matter. I always welcome open discussion if it carries some weight. Do my generalizations fail sometimes? Sure. But do they ring true most of the time? Yes. If you want to argue, my friend transcended and went to harvard med from podonk school? Good for you, I already addressed that. But if you are a good student coming out of high school, would you yourself decide to go to podonk u when you have a harvard acceptance letter, and say that your chances of getting into hopkins med after 4 years of college, are going to be equal. Try it, and see if you're right. From the end where we have the power to accept, reject, or wait list, you better be pretty stellar.</p>

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<p>I don't disagree with what you're saying. In fact, my complaint is that you're not providing any additional insight beyond what we already know. Almost all of us already know that Harvard premeds get into med school at a good rate. They're smart, motivated people, the same characteristics that got them into Harvard in the first place. We (those of us that have interviewed at or attend med school) know that top schools are overrepresented at top med schools. We know prestige plays "some" role. What I would like is a better picture of how big a role it plays. You supposedly sat on a med school adcom. How about a description of how you evaluate candidates? Saying something like "We give 5 extra points to Harvard applicants" or "We put all the Ivy League applicants in a separate pile" gives much more credibility to your assertion that prestige is important than just quoting statistics I can find on the internet. Until you reveal something we don't already know, then it's really pointless to debate with you. All you're pointing out is that students from top med schools are more successful than students from low-tier med schools. Not terribly surprising that 3.8/38 students ended up doing better than 3.5/29 students in med school.</p>

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<p>Regarding Jagnick's post about there's NO basis for medschool prestige factoring into where people match for residency. </p>

<p>FYI -- here's your match list. NYMC</p>

<p>New</a> York Medical College</p>

<p>Here's stanford's match list.</p>

<p>March</a> 26, 2007 - The Dean's Newsletter - Stanford University School of Medicine</p>

<p>People can look for themselves and determine which school tends to send people to more prestigious programs... also look closely at competitive specialties: <a href="Stanford%20--%20Class%20Size%2072">NYMC -- Class size 186</a></p>

<p>NYMC class ~ 8% Match at Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, Columbia, UCLA, Hopkins
Stanford class ~ 50% Match at Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, Columbia, UCLA, Hopkins</p>

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<p>Many people think that if they go to their state school for undergrad & save the money for med school they are assuming they will be attending Ivy or an elite private med school. Top kids in my child's HS class did not get into amazing med schools they thought they'd get from the flagship. Good ones but not the expected Johns Hopkins or Harvard.</p>

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<p>It's more subjective than that. School's build up a track record. Harvard has an excellent track record, so people are looked at in that context. At the same time, we know the curriculum extremely well, so we can tell if people have padded their extracurriculars, taken the easier version of a course, not pushed themselves with graduate classes. For example, university of arizona has a good track record as well, so we look at them more favorably. If we took a chance on bloomington U. one year, because the person looked good on paper and got glowing recommendations, and then were a train wreck in med school. We' re going to doubt the recs, and A's that come from that school. Both students may be 3.8 GPAs, 34 MCATs, well-rounded.</p>

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<p>I don't want to discourage people from taking that route oreo45. Financial aid is another discussion entirely... state schools are not always cheaper!! With schools offering full tuition payment, and partial for middle-income families, I think it's just plain stupid to rule out places based on cost without knowing the data. How can anyone make an informed decision without information? Schools with mega-endowments often graduate their students with LESS debt than public schools. But people always see Private is more expensive than public, generally that's true. But until you have hard number's don't decide.</p>

<p>Public schools that have honors programs do well. It's a question of what kind of environment you will thrive in. Competing against the best and the brightest, makes some people rise to the challenge while others sink. Don't do something that is going to make you sink. But college is more than a singular focus on the finish line, and people get distracted, fall in love, party, be college kids. If you do that at an elite institution, you will in my opinion, though I have nothing to back this up, keep your head above water and look better at the end, than if you do the same thing at a flagship public univ.</p>