<p>yeah, but would 11th be that much worse than 10th...I mean when you look at average strating salary data, or that grpah, they look to be around the same</p>
<p>Part of the explanation is that all of the top 14 law schools have been in US News' top 10 at least once and no other law school has been.</p>
<p>The reality is that there are many successful lawyers who went to third and fourth tier law schools. Going to a T14 law school does not guarantee success, and going to any other law school does not in any way leave you without an avenue to success. Is there much difference between the number 14 and the number 15 ranked law schools in any given year's US News list? Probably not, but I've also never seen a hiring committee in BIGLAW review the lists every year when they come out. </p>
<p>I promise you that prospective and, perhaps, current law students are much more concerned with changes in the annual US News lists of top law schools than almost any practicing lawyer. If a school moves a spot or two in the rankings, it's typically like that proverbial tree in the forest -- if the hiring lawyers aren't paying attention to the move . . . you get the picture.</p>
<p>If you find a law school that is ranked 15 or 50 or 150 that suits your needs, than by all means attend that law school. The point that many of the practicing lawyers who frequent this board is that you should go in with your eyes open. Understand the amount of student loans you may need to take to attend law school. Consider what kinds of job opportunities you may have when you graduate from your chosen law school, and in what geography you are most likely to find those job opportunities. Consider whether the types of jobs you are likely to find at your chosen law school will enable you to pay off your student loans while living the kind of life you envision yourself leading. Consider what kind of job you want to have upon graduation from law school, and what kind of salary you can realistically expect. Consider the demanding environments you may find at some legal employers in terms of time and committment, and think about whether making the kinds of sacrifices that are necessary to work for those legal employers are worth it to you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you find a law school that is ranked 15 or 50 or 150 that suits your needs, than by all means attend that law school
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</p>
<p>This is pretty disingenous information. The law school that suits every student's needs is providing the opportunity to get a high-paying job, selective public interest position, etc., and to pay back their student loans. A recent article quotes that half of all T14 graduates find $160,000 "biglaw" jobs (as do many others after completing clerkships), compared to 19% of non-14 Tier 1 and 7% of Tier 2 graduates. While not everyone is looking for those jobs, these percentages correlate strongly with job prospects in general. And let's not kid ourselves, most people want to be lawyers for the money, so they need to be realistic about the likely return on their investment.</p>
<p>Plenty of people have plenty of reasons for applying to law school. Some already have jobs lined up -- they're either related to or friends with or have impressed a law firm -- and just need the JD. Some plan on working in the business world. Some are thinking about politics. Some want to work in public defense. Some people are already rich enough to pay for it, and some people will win full-tuition scholarships.</p>
<p>"Every student's needs" are very different, and you'd be well advised not to paint all of them in one aggressive stroke while accusing another very experienced poster of saying irresponsible things.</p>
<p>Some people seem to think that all the lawyers working in top paying firms graduated from the T14. That is certainly not the case. I just placed a young man today with a large firm who graduated from a tier 3 school. He has 2 years experience and will be making $145k. This is not in a major market, but that means the cost of living is much less than DC or NY. If he had read this thread, he surely would have been discouraged from going to law school. I am working with another lawyer from a tier 3 school who happens to be in a practice area where experience trumps law school and I expect him to get an offer from a large firm in the $180k range. Did he waste his time going to tier 3? He doesn't think so. According to the data, these are exceptions, but there are lots of exceptions. People have to be realistic, but not completely pessimistic.</p>
<p>Off topic, but:
[quote]
But I know what you mean. For example, NYU isn't really that well-regarded for undergrad nor its other grad programs, but its law school is ranked in the top 5. I was pretty surprised when I found this out.
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</p>
<p>Going to school on the West Coast may buffer you from some of the reputation, but actually Tisch and Stern are actually not as embarrassing to attend as you might think. Nor is the rest of NYU.</p>
<p>
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Going to school on the West Coast may buffer you from some of the reputation, but actually Tisch and Stern are actually not as embarrassing to attend as you might think. Nor is the rest of NYU.
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</p>
<p>It might be due to the West Coast bias...but NYU isn't really that competitive to get into for undergrad or other grad programs. In comparison, its law school is very competitive to get into.</p>
<p>On the West Coast, we think the top New York schools are Columbia and Cornell.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And let's not kid ourselves, most people want to be lawyers for the money, so they need to be realistic about the likely return on their investment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To be honest, I've always thought law was a necessary resort for humanities majors who can't find jobs. And considering it's a well-respected and rather prestigious profession, being a lawyer is not too shabby. ;)</p>
<p>But on the same line, if I hadn't decided years ago that I wanted to be a lawyer, I'd definitely have majored in engineering as an undergrad.</p>
<p>Here's a nice graph which was put together by another Internet bulletin board poster. It seems to me like the cutoffs go every five schools -- but there are some substantial surprises in there. These are BIGLAW and clerkship placements combined.</p>
<p>yeah, it looks liek form that grpah, taht vandy should also now be considered amongst the elite</p>
<p>BerkSen - of course Tisch is really easy to get into. Ask anyone. My bad.</p>
<p>The point is that if you are interested in attending Vandy, you have to investigate costs of attendance and what your debt load will be upon graduation, you must look into what law firms and other employers recruit at Vandy, and you must determine what portion of the graduating classes at Vandy end up with jobs of the sort you would like to have. If, upon completing your investigation, you are satisfied that Vandy meets all of your needs, then by all means attend Vandy. </p>
<p>The same could be said for Loyola, Fordham, GW and any other law school in the country. Investigate first and determine if going to a particular law school, in light of the cost of attendance, will give you the opportunities that you would like to have upon graduation. </p>
<p>This isn't about changing the rankings or considering one school "among the elite", it's about learning what will be best for you. You need to be an educated consumer when choosing a law school, so educate yourself!</p>
<p>There are stories upon stories of people who are so incredibly disappointed that they have huge amounts of student loans upon graduation from law school while they are not able to find employment that will enable them to both live comfortably and pay off those loans. I think that you need to think these things through before deciding to attend law school. You need to understand what it really means to have $100,000+ of student loan debt, and you need to understand what your chances are of landing that $160,000/year job. You need to understand what sacrifices you will have to make to keep that $160,000/year job if you are able to obtain one. You need to understand what percentage of students from your target law school actually obtain employment in BIGLAW or public interest or corporations or clerkships, depending upon your interests. </p>
<p>The whole emphasis on the T14 is largely based upon the fact that these law schools are generally very successful in placing their graduates in law firms, big and small, clerkships, public interest, etc. nationally (meaning that there are really no geographical limitations that these graduates face based upon the law school they attended). These law schools also have a very good track record of finding satisfactory employment opportunities for not only their top students, but also for students very deep in the class. Of course, that is not to say that other law schools are not successful in similar ways, but you do need to do additional investigation to determine whether a particular law school has a regional or other emphasis in its employment opportunities. Again, if you are looking to live and work within a law school's regional strength, then that law school may be the right one for you.</p>
<p>Go in with your eyes open.</p>
<p>Well all of my researchshows that cost of attendance is around the same, and that the average starting salary is around the same</p>
<p>Just to make my point, here is some other information I pulled off of Vandy's website in about two minutes:</p>
<p>The class size is smaller than 200 (which would make it one of the smaller law schools)</p>
<p>56% of the class has been out of college for at least one year</p>
<p>With respect to recruiting, employers get to choose one-half of their on campus interviewing schedules (at many of the T14 law schools, employers have no say in who appears on their interviewing schedules, as they are not allowed to "pre-screen" applicants)</p>
<p>51% of the graduating class take jobs in the south and midwest</p>
<p>You need information like this in order to make decisions about where you want to go to law school. It's out there, and if it isn't, you should call the law schools you are interested in attending and ask.</p>
<p>
[quote]
at many of the T14 law schools, employers have no say in who appears on their interviewing schedules, as they are not allowed to "pre-screen" applicants
[/quote]
Interesting. Say I'm a selective firm trying to recruit at Penn. Does this mean I have to interview everybody who wants an interview? And then, at Vanderbilt, I would get to pick enough kids that I want to fill half my schedule, and then the other half is filled by some random selection process?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interesting. Say I'm a selective firm trying to recruit at Penn. Does this mean I have to interview everybody who wants an interview? And then, at Vanderbilt, I would get to pick enough kids that I want to fill half my schedule, and then the other half is filled by some random selection process?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Basically, yes. With no pre-screening, the firms buy a block of slots that are filled by lottery. Students rank the firms they want to interview with and are assigned to their highest available choice by a computer. At some schools, career services won't even let the firms publish the minimum rank/GPA they're looking for, even though they have to interview every student who gets a slot.</p>
<p>bdm,
From what the Vandy Law website says and from what I know of Penn Law recruiting, your statement is accurate. Now, even at schools where potential employers may not pre-screen applicants, the law firms and other employers may sometimes specify guidelines as to what qualifications they are seeking, though at schools that do not rank students at all (like Penn Law), pretty much anyone has a shot at a job once they get on the schedule, and getting on the schedule is only a matter of submitting a resume (though a solid student probably has a much better shot at getting a call back interview than a student with grades at the bottom of the scale, as you would imagine). </p>
<p>Now, for some additional unsolicited information:</p>
<p>Here is what generally happens during on campus recruiting. First, students review the NALP guide and whatever information provided to them by the law firms (by mail, during recruiting events, or otherwise) and determine at which firms they would like to interview. The students submit their resumes for those firms, and at top law schools, where resumes are not first pre-screened by the firms, the recruiting office sets up an interview schedule for the firms/students. A firm will typically send one or any number of interviewers to interview for a full day at a given law school (typically 20 interviews per interviewer), so the number of schedules that a firm has really means the number of interviewers a particular firm will send. If a firm has five schedules, that means they will interview 100 students. Often the number of interviewers sent reflects that firm's interest in a given law school, the past interest of students at a given law school in that firm and the proposed size of the incoming summer associate class at that firm.</p>
<p>Now, if a firm is oversubscribed, either the career office creates a waiting list for spots or the firm may decide to send additional interviewers in order to see as many students who are interested in interviewing there. Again, if a law school has the ability to pre-screen resumes this is less likely to happen as firms will feel as if they have already made sure to interview the "cream of the crop". Often, where there is no pre-screening, even if you are waitlisted or never submitted your resume in the first place, you can grab a moment or two with an interviewer either in between interviews, during their lunch break or at the end of the day. Simply dropping off a resume in person can also be very effective. Often, the bigger firms will have a dinner for selected interviewees at the end of the day of interviewing and then call-backs and fly-backs to visit the firms at their places of business begin. </p>
<p>In fact, though, very few law schools prevent employers from pre-screening students' resumes. The employers have to want students from those law schools pretty badly and must be fairly confident in the quality of the student body to interview without pre-screening at those law schools.</p>
<p>At at least two law schools, interviewees rank the order in which they want to interview at different firms and the career office takes those rankings into account in assigning interviews. MUCH strategizing goes into how to rank the firms. A student might think X firm is his first choice but figure that it will be easier to get an interview with than his second choice. So, he might rank his second choice first. It may well turn out that only people who rank it first get an interview at all. </p>
<p>So, Sally is right in saying it's a lottery--but it's not a lottery in the sense that slots for each firm are the results of a separate lottery. You don't end up with one student getting 10 interviews with the 10 "hottest" firms and someone else being closed out. If you don't get your first choice--because too many students ranked it first--you're going to be at the top of the stack for your second choice if there are any openings after everyone who ranked it first gets an interview. If you did get your first choice with a "hot" firm, you may not get your second...and sometimes it's the case that your first choice was a "reach" where you have little chance of landing a job and your second choice was your best realistic option--except now you don't get the interview. See what I mean about strategizing? Of course, everyone runs around sort of "casually" asking the class stars or the folks on law review where they want to interview to see if it's worth listing a reach firm as first choice. </p>
<p>The law firms are not told how high you ranked them. They just get a list of people who are iterviewing. Most do have cocktail parties--and some of these are open to any student, so that those who didn't get a slot can show up. At at least a few top law schools, some law firms expect the 3Ls who have accepted offers or have offers pending to show up and help "sell" the firm. And some firms make a point of including the 3Ls who are going to clerk. </p>
<p>After on campus interviews, firms invite some people for "call backs." Some law schools literally close down for "fly out week." Everyone is expected to schedule interviews for that week. (In the old days, we missed one heck of a lot of classes, which is why the schools instituted this system.) So, all the students from X law school will be flying all over the country to interview during a certain week. Now, if you are not a <em>star</em> student or if you are "geographically not yet decided" it can be tough to schedule all your interviews in the same week. Let say you interview on campus and get 15 call backs. It is highly likely that you are not going to be able to schedule 15 interviews in the same week, especially if you are trying to schedule interviews in two different cities. (There are always one or two poor souls whose significant others have to await a residency match or do a job search too. So, then you might want to split your summer between two cities and some firms aren't willing to let you do this. So, you'll need to research that too. ) </p>
<p>As I'm sure the savvy could predict, the law schools have engaged in some shuffling of interview season and "fly out week" to improve the chances of their students. So, some schools will try hard to make sure that their students are interviewed early in the process. It gets pretty funny at times. Using a mythical city called the Big Apple, you may find that the career center at one local law school will move heaven and earth to make sure that its interview week --most people want jobs in the Big Apple and aren't flying out--is BEFORE those of law schools further up the totem pole. The idea is that if they haven't made any offers yet, they are more likely to give our kids a call back. Then they might wait until they have done interviews at the more highly ranked schools to make offers to anyone--but the theory is,, and I think it's right, that you're more likely to get an offer if you got a callback. </p>
<p>It's an interesting process and sometimes the results are truly strange. Believe it or not, I've know students who picked which of the firms that offered them call backs to actually go visit by finding out which hotels they put you up in. I mean if your aim is to get a job with a law firm in a given city, you may have a hard time choosing which firms to see if you don't really know that much about some of them.</p>
<p>Oops--just saw that A-ski explained part of this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't forget, however, that the T14 are hardly a uniform pool, in and of themselves.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The T-14 schools have been pretty much set in stone.</p>
<p>As for schools just outside the T-14, UT, Vandy, WUSTL, ND, etc. - one can certainly do just as well on the job market at those schools, but for a national reach, one probably has to graduate a bit more at the top of one's class.</p>