How to Educate Girls and Not Boys

Parents Forum
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<p>I see a spectrum of behavior wiht boys falling on a more attraction to mechanical type things/more active/ less verbal end and girls falling on a more small motor oriented/more verbal/more creative end.</p>

<p>I don't think it is a question of maturity, but of learning and thinking style.
I think we have evolved into teaching toward more desk work & linear learners, perhaps because it is easier to control a large group of children if they are sitting down in rows, even if research shows that retention is upped when out of the box and out of the classroom type experiences are used more often.</p>

<p>If teaching is done out of a textbook, it is easier to measure and compare- we have to have numbers to quote after all.
WHen I was very young I thought that differences were environmentally based- afterall my husband was much more organized and romantic than I was- & I was just as athletic and more competitive.</p>

<p>BUt one particular scene will always stick in my mind- my oldest who I always tried to encourage to develop other parts of herself, than the pink loving, artistic reader, was playing matchbox cars with a friend.
( she had her own collection to add to her dads)
THey had made little houses and even * skirts* for their cars.
no racing- just dress up ;)</p>

42

<p>

That's an image worth a thousand words. My version comes from our oldest son who was, like many boys of PC parents 20 years ago, forbidden to play with guns. One day we noticed he was spending a great deal of time eating a cracker. It turned out he was carefully nibbling his crackers into the shape of guns so he could play with them afterwards.</p>

<p>That's when I fully realized that boys and girls are inherently different.</p>

43

<p>DRJ:</p>

<p>I realize I have been lucky with my sons. I do recall, though that in middel school, the girls were just as rambunctious as the boys. Si, in particular, was in a class that had more girls than boys, and some of the girls were real ringleaders.</p>

<p>S was also raised at a time when it was no-no in our community to have guns and gun plays. That's before he went to summer camp. One big attraction was water guns. S demanded a serious-looking water gun. Most of my Ss' energies, however, were focused on Legos and K'Nex and model trains.</p>

44

<p>Marite,</p>

<p>I'm sorry I didn't "listen" well to your last comment. Thanks for coming back and making your point again. I know our experiences are anecdotal and may not represent a trend but I think they are relevant. It's interesting that your sons experienced what sounds like equally assertive/aggressive girls and boys. How do we evaluate this? </p>

<ol>
<li><p>It could be that there isn't that much difference between girls and boys or how they are treated in school, but girls do better in school because they are smarter and more adaptable.</p></li>
<li><p>It could be that the students at this school were an anomaly and are not representative of most schools and students.</p></li>
<li><p>It could be that the girls were permitted to be the ringleaders (i.e., not punished or pressured into different behavior) while the boys were treated differently in subtle or not-so-subtle ways. Conversely, it could be that the school permitted boys-to-be-boys but expected different behavior from girls.</p></li>
<li><p>It could be you were in that rarest of all schools - one that treated boys and girls alike while still letting them be boys and girls.</p></li>
<li><p>None of the above / Other: </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Marite (and others), what do you think?</p>

45

<p>one of my daughters early elementary teacher was very big on no weapons.
Even if they picked up a stick when out for walk in the woods they had to put it down.
IT was to my great amusement some years later, when running into her at the grocery store & meeting her 1st child- about 5 years old sitting in the grocery cart.
He had a nerf sword in his hand, and rhythmically thwatted me with it while we talked- ROFLAO</p>

46

<p>jazzymom:</p>

<p>I too was very skeptical of the Catholic Jesuit HS. However, we were in a risk-taking mood (actually I was just underwhelmed by our public school) and sent our sons in 7th grade. All I can say is wow. An amazing school, and an amazing place for boys growing into men. It was so different than I thought (OK, worried) it was going to be. I knew my kids would not fit the "norm" for the school (and they don't - liberal agnostics) but it didn't matter one bit - in fact, they truly thrived. </p>

<p>Of course, it's not perfect, but imagine your sons in a school where they never have to make a collage, a "project," or a poster. They never walk down halls lined with fancy bulletin boards. They are never yelled at for NEEDING food at 10:00AM. School doors aren't locked, it's OK to have a (really) messy locker, and if things get a little physical, well it blows over in minutes. In spite of having the world's LARGEST lost and found, kids can still wander in and locate that math book that's been missing for a week. A homeless guy collecting cans out of the school garbage cans - that's fine too, they all know him. Need a place to read quietly? Choose any one of the grungy (to a mom anyway) recliners or couches that are in various offices or rooms. No one questions why you're there instead of in the library. To most women it looks a little chaotic - but there is true ownership, empowerment and a very definite masculine feel about the place.</p>

<p>Just as boys benefit from fathers as good masculine models, so they benefit from male teachers as good role models. Men treat boys differently than most women. It's just the way it is. For too many boys, the world just has too many women in it until they are adults and go to work!</p>

<p>It's heaven for boy (if a tad smelly...). Well, that's just my little plug for the Jesuits, from a most unlikely ally.</p>

47

<p>DRJ:</p>

<p>It's really difficult to extrapolate from a couple of schools and a few students. I would say that, in general, boys are more active than boys, and that in general, girls are more likely to be teacher-pleasers. But we each have kids who are their own unique selves, and we try to address their needs and learning styles in a variety of environments.</p>

<p>I know one parent who thought the atmosphere at the high school was too permissive and sent his son to Catholic school. I don't know whether they did projects or not, but they certainly were not allowed to loiter in corridors. Our parochial school does not resemble the one Weenie describes. </p>

<p>Do male teachers treat boys differently? The k-8 school tried hard to recruit male teachers and was not too unsuccessful. Some were homeroom teachers, some were assistant teachers. Interestingly, the kids seemed to think that the male teachers were stricter. In other words, the male teachers had less tolerance for rambunctious behavior. As one kid said, "after xxx moved from being asistant teacher to homeroom teacher, he was not so much fun anymore."</p>

<p>Some of the girls who were very assertive in k-8 did very well in high school, by the way. The rambunctious boys took a bit longer to buckle down and do the work. And a few got into real trouble (i.e. with the law).</p>

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<p>Thanks, Marite. I always enjoy and benefit from your comments.</p>

<p>Weenie - You should think about running for your local school board. (In the alternative, you could always recruit for that Catholic Jesuit HS. You made a believer out of me.)</p>

49

<p>weenie:</p>

<p>Since you have access to the world of boys' schools, I'd like to ask a few questions. </p>

<p>How rigorous are the academics and how are the most studious boys, the top of the class, regarded? Are they considered geeks or nerds in your son's school?</p>

<pre><code>How does the culture of the school treat the boy who is not athletic? Not into team sports at all? The only impression I have of the boys' school around here is that sports are worshipped on a level second only to well, you know. What about the arts in these schools --- drama, music, choir --- are they accepted and supported or considered weak and "lesser" activities?
</code></pre>

<p>While I recognize the value of boys learning in a male-approving environment, I wonder if that environment also trys to temper the aspects of male behavior that often sometimes tempering --- the impulsiveness, the lack of empathy for others' feelings, the competitiveness or need to dominate that sometimes drives behavior to go too far? </p>

<p>How much religion is taught? I went to Catholic schools and I remember not liking that part of school; my husband is Jewish so that's why I say it wouldn't work for us unless the religion is taught in a "world religions" way rather than a there-is-one-truth-only way. Is okay to not be Catholic or even Christian in your son's school?</p>

<p>What's the average class size (student-teacher ratio)? When I was going to parochial school, class sizes were huge and some of the Catholic schools here have class sizes even larger than the public school.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

50

<p>at my school, there is basically no difference between boys and girls. The valedictorian and saludatorian are both boys, as are half the top ten (maybe 4, im not sure of the exact top 10). The only difference people usually point out is that girls are usually the harder workers while boys are the ones that rely on their pure intelligence to get by in school. However, out of our 9 ivy bound students (3 harvard 3 brown 2 columbia 1 cornell), four are boys, and about the same amount of boys attend college as girls. There are just as many girls who give up on school or just dont care as there are boys.</p>

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<p>ckmets13,</p>

<p>It sounds like you have a good high school - for boys and girls - but you may find that your college will be different. Fewer men than women attend college today and they even have a name for it: The Gender Gap. <a href="http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/04/26/gender%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/04/26/gender&lt;/a>. </p>

<p>Did you know the gender imbalance in college is so pronounced that a few colleges have started affirmative action programs for men? <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/03/27/admit%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/03/27/admit&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

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<p>jazzymom:</p>

<p>I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.</p>

<p>The school my boys go to has an admission exam, and so they are already getting a fairly high level student. It's a place where it is "OK to be smart." In fact, it's very much cool to be smart. I don't know about the names "geeks" or "nerds." Perhaps my kids are geeks. I don't know. In general, there seems to be very little labeling and cliqueishness (s?). The boys have certain circles of friends of course, but there is a great deal of crossover and they truly do consider their classmates their brothers. The social "rules" are very loose, sort of what you might expect with boys.</p>

<p>I have boys who are not athletes. They enjoy going to the football games etc., but were never on a team. They are music/drama kids. (Maybe they are geeks! :) ) I live in a region where all our schools are sports OBSESSED. Our public high schools have artificial turf football fields and only the BEST ($$$) facilities. Of course the Jesuit HS is not as well funded and the facilities are not as good. However, their teams are good in spite of it and there is a lot of school spirit. In many ways the all-boys school has been a refuge of sorts for my non-athletic kids. Without the cheerleader thing going on there seems to be less top-athlete worshiping too. Actually, it is amusing because the boys have to do a LOT of cheering from the sidelines to make up for the lack of cheerleaders and pep band etc. It's pretty funny. Our school put on an addition a few years ago and they chose to put on an arts wing. At the time there was a lot of talk of well-rounded, culturally educated kids. There is however a field house going up soon too.</p>

<p>I would be lying if I said that there is not some (a lot?) of the impulsiveness you alude to. I describe it as a "physical" environment. There are efforts now and then to rein it in, but here's an example: They had an assembly one day to inform the kids that anybody touching anybody else would lead to detention. They had had a few bad incidents that week where things got too rough. Meanwhile, during the assembly, my son's friend is poking the kid next to him with a pencil and so gets detention during the assembly! Empathy is of course a big Christian theme, but I have trouble differentiating there between home experiences and school. (My kids are empathetic, but did they learn that in school or at home? I don't know.) I think the school feels less competitive about things that don't matter (looks, clothes, popularity) and more competitive about things that do matter (grades!). As you might expect, there is not a lot of talk among the boys about certain things - like where they are going to college or what kind of scholarships they got or any of that stuff. They are actually pretty clueless on those topics.</p>

<p>They do take religion every semester. It is a mix of Catholic/ New Testament stuff, morals, comparative religions etc. I know my kids (and many others) have felt free to challenge things in that class. The real downside to religion is that it limits other electives. In many ways I think it's good that my kids have been truly educated in religion. They have a different, and more accurate view of what are clearly widespread beliefs.</p>

<p>There are non-Christians there, although obviously in the minority.The school is unapologetically Catholic, rightly so I guess. There is a favorite teacher there who is Jewish. There are several Muslim kids I know about. My son who has graduated went on the senior year retreat and loved it (and he is pretty anti-organized-religion). After the retreat one of the group leaders (voted in - I happen to know he's a top student and athlete) gave a little talk on his feelings about being an atheist on the retreat! (He had a great time, and learned great things about not pre-judging people and kids you don't know very well, etc. It actually was quite sweet.) All I know is that I have never heard of a kid who felt out of place there because of religion. Admittedly, a gay kid would probably not do well there. Put that many boys together and, unfortunately, there can be a rather homophobic environment. </p>

<p>Nowadays Catholic schools do not have such big classes. I do not know the ratio, but there are probably about 20 kids in my son's classes (some less if it is a less popular class). This is one of the few Catholic schools that pays its teachers on par with the public schools. Consequently there is VERY little turnover of faculty. (Teachers love teaching there.) I have always wondered if perhaps all-boys high schools have the luxury of being better endowed than others due to men making more money.</p>

<p>Sorry this is so long. And I do not mean to say that everything about this school is perfect! There are incidents which I would classify as spoiled-rich-kid-events that are definitely not good. Also, there are kids with drinking and drug problems just like in every high school (and sometimes the more affluent the school the worse those problems can be). </p>

<p>I know that a Jesuit high school in a nearby city has a reputation for being quite bit stricter than this school. But I think in general the Jesuits have quite a "boys-will-be-boys" reputation.</p>

<p>Hope that helps. Too bad there aren't more all-boy options out there!!!</p>

53

<p>A stimulating book that might be of interest is "Manliness" by Harvey Mansfield:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/qid=1150596835/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-4271321-0964907?s=books&v=glance&n=283155%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/qid=1150596835/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-4271321-0964907?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I could have used some of those affirmative action programs :)</p>

55

<p>What a good letter. My boys have attended a US 'progressive' school (compliant behavior encouraged, non-compliant behavior treated as felonious or aberration worthy of a psychiatrist/drugging) and an overseas Anglican boys school (agressive behavior rewarded; non-compliant behavior treated as part of every day life to be addressed by a layered system of hard labour). Each has it's advantages, but I prefer the boy's school atmosphere for the boys.</p>

<p>Note: I exist in the mirror image described by Horseman. I am an architect working in the construction industry.</p>

<p>Imagine an industry where the vast majority are aggressive men and where competitive sports are compulsory conversation. :eek:</p>

<p>Imagine that I am rewarded for being overtly aggressive. Imagine that there is zero tolerance for being passive--and ZERO dollars, I might add ;).</p>

<p>Imagine that I get extra credit for resisting authority and lose money and jobs when I am too compliant.</p>

<p>An industry like this would feel as hostile to 'passive and nice' girls as today's schools feel to boys--which is why so few female architects own their archtiectural practices, why so few design large scale projects and why so few continue to practice after they have children.</p>

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<p>Cheers,</p>

<p>Well done. Your comment injected real life into the original post plus it's entertaining. While I'm not usually a fan of online abbreviations, your comment deserves a hearty LOL.</p>

57

<p>"I wonder if that environment also trys to temper the aspects of male behavior that often sometimes (need) tempering --- the impulsiveness, the lack of empathy for others' feelings, the competitiveness or need to dominate that sometimes drives behavior to go too far?"</p>

<p>How far is too far? From what I can tell any hint of impulsiveness, lack of empathy or competitiveness is considered too far in our public schools. Every good dobee needs to share, be considerate, be patient and docile. I still remember the regimentation and boredom of grade school. There are just too damn many woman teachers. There is a time and place for reading, discussing and doing homework and projects. When is the time for adventure, exploration, taking things apart, and putting them back together? When is the time to take some dreary book like Silas Marner and see how far it will go when you hit it with a baseball bat?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
There are just too damn many woman teachers. There is a time and place for reading, discussing and doing homework and projects. When is the time for adventure, exploration, taking things apart, and putting them back together?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know whether this would count, but my Ss had projects that involved moving around a great deal. Lego Logo programming to operate a washing-machine. Making toothpaste as a way to learn proprotions and fractions. Creating a 'museum," making artifacts for sale at "fairs" that were part of social studies units. And performing skits since kindergarten.</p>

<p>But it is true that there is an excessive emphasis on "sharing" and being nice.
A friend of mine came back from the daycare center, fuming. Her 4-year old had been bitted again by another 4-year old, and not for the first time. Each time, the teacher would say, "Be nice; use words. It's not nice to bite." Unfortunately, my friend's little girl was hyper-articualte and the other one wasn't. She did not feel that using words would get her what she wanted, so she resorted to biting. My friend wondered aloud if she should encourage her kid to bite back...</p>

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<p>Weenie:</p>

<p>Thanks for your reply and insights into an all-boy school. You answered my questions and frankly, I wish the school in my area more closely resembled yours. The one here is all sports, all the time, and the arts are nonexistent. It is not the atmosphere that would work for my son. Although, there are times when I think the English aristocracy had it right --- pack them off to boys' boarding schools at an early age and let them sink or swim among the all-male environment. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger and all that. (well, not really.) It is actually the sports culture that most turns me off, not the teaching of religion, btw. It would be a radical improvement in public schools, though, if they were to create more single-sex class options -- more choice if you will -- for those who want it. </p>

<p>edad: I hear your frustration. When S1 was in elementary school, the playground monitors were really punitive about ANY boy on boy physical contact. I understand a rule about keep your hands and feet to yourself in the classroom, but this was recess, for crying out loud. There is a difference between bullying, the bigger picking on the smaller, and the typical "grab-ass" roughhouse that boys enjoy and use to cement friendships. There were some moms who finally met with the principal and the playground supervisors to draw up a new policy --- more observation before punishment and trying to determine the difference between an act of bullying and a couple friends messing around.
Once, when my son was about 7, I watched as another boy jumped on his back and brought him to the ground after a game at a soccer field. My mom radar was about to send me flying into the breach when my son jumped up and said, "do that again, only this time let me flip you off." They did. They are still good friends. </p>

<pre><code>When does the physicality go to far?

When the other kid is not having fun and doesn't like it. When serious injury or property damage may result. When criminal charges might be filed. When the behavior incites not friendship but rage in the other kid. Boys need to be physical, but they also need to be taught how to control their tempers and their strength. One other more recent story: my 14-year-old was being jumped and choked from behind in PE by a bigger kid who once was a friend. This choke hold from behind was kind of a play/roughhouse thing some kids were into. My son didn't tell me, of course, but another friend of his told his mom who told me. When I asked, my son got tears in his eyes and told me the boy kept doing it even though he told the kid to stop. My son didn't want me to do anything, but I called the assistant principal the next day and told him I didn't want my son to be choked in PE anymore, period. I understand roughhouse; I also know when it's gone too far. It didn't happen again.
</code></pre>

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<p>I agree about schools being too harsh on normal physical behaviors. Before I started college, I did a one week orientation program that involved volunteering at a local elementary school. The teachers seemed to be genuinely nurturing, well-intentioned people who wanted to make a healthy environment for a diverse group of students. However, my classmates and I left depressed at how restrictive it was. At lunchtime, teachers monitored the children to make sure - get this- that they weren't sharing any food, since the school was afraid of allergies. They were not allowed out of their seats until cleanup time. Now, I understand you can't have kids running around the cafeteria, but I'm talking about an 8 year old waslking to check on his 5 year old brother because it was his first day of school. I'm talking about a kid standing up absentmindedly as he tried to open his Lunchables packet. In both cases, the kid was - very kindly - told that "remember, we have to sit down." Recess was even worse. If the kids strayed slightly off the blacktop area onto a neighboring field (also owned by the school, but apparently considered too unmanageable for recess), they were hurried back into the main area. Worst of all, running was forbidden. The teachers instructed them to play "walking tag."</p>

<p>I understand that safety is important. But somehow, my parents generation, and even my peers, survived public elementary schools without that level of repression. It is this kind of thing that turns kids, especially boys, perhaps, off - and that is just elementary school.</p>