How Underminers reroute our most talented girls

<p>Girls continue to lag behind in many fields especially mathematics, and science, primarily because of underlying attitudes and expectations held by parents, teachers, and administrators, and the subtle undermining messages that are sent to girls every day reflecting those values. This is done frequently without realizing it on the part of the sender. </p>

<p>If a boy wants to take B/C Calculus, or Multi-Variable Calculus, or Physics C in high school, he is likely to hear, "That is great!", "You will be glad you did that later", "You're are showing colleges that you have what it takes!", "It will be work, but it will be worth it!", "That will help you get a good job some day." He is encouraged and lauded for his ambition and achievements. He is treated like a RockStar.</p>

<p>A girl is much more likely to hear those around her say things like, "That will be really hard, won't it?", "Are you sure you want to be stuck in a class with a bunch of boys?", "That won't be fun. Don't you want to take it easy your Senior year and have fun with your friends?" Instead of encouraging her to move forward with confidence, she is encouraged to move forward with caution, and self doubt about whether this is the correct decision, and to throw in the towel at the first sign of a difficulty. </p>

<p>When a boy expresses doubt about his ability to handle a of difficult class, he is more likely to be encouraged to work harder and offered support. If a girl expresses doubt, she is more likely to hear, "If you aren't sure? Maybe it isn't right for you." "Why not take something more fun? Perhaps, a class with lots of girls in it? Wouldn't that make you happier?"</p>

<p>Sadly, these comments come from both women and men, and usually the person acting as the Underminer is well intended, and believes they are helping her. Whether they think of it explicitly or not, most parents and grand parents worry that their male progeny will need a good education and a good job to find a good wife. In contrast, they worry that if their female progeny are too successful, they may not end up having a family (read, grandchildren). These concerns get reflected in the not too subtle comments that they make to their sons and daughters, and the expectations that they set for them. Subtly, but persistently guiding the boys and girls down different paths.</p>

<p>This underlying view and altered perception sometimes goes even further. Often a parent or counselor who does attempt to challenge a girl to lean in and take the challenge of a top college or a harder class is attacked by the others who are relatives or counselors.</p>

<p>A girl, who is well qualified, says that she wants to go to a highly competitive college, say MIT or Cal Tech or Harvard, counselors and relatives around her are more likely to express concern about homework, and stress levels and send her emails of articles about a kid who went to that school and committed suicide, or had a meltdown and ask whether she might be happier somewhere easier. All in the guise of "Wanting her to be happy." </p>

<p>When someone, say the girl's father, does encourage her to lean-into this challenge, the Underminers go to work on him too. They tell the girl that they want her to be happy, and that, in contrast, her father is not concerned about her happiness like they are, but instead is just trying to live out his dream through her.</p>

<p>I see these types of behavior every day in the responses and reactions and messages boys and girls receive. Amazingly, then we all sit around and wonder why the girls are not doing as well on SATs or ACTs. We are surprised to learn that the to math and science classes are largely comprised of boys. We begin to question whether girls really can do it, and right wing conservatives smile because they always thought that a woman's place was in the home, and these fact further convince them that they are right. And so, these beliefs and doubts continue to drive the pernicious circle forward.</p>

<p>Please, encourage your girls, and support them to lean-in and take that challenging math or science class. To be confident and believe in themselves. </p>

<p>Please encourage your daughters and grand daughters to take more math and science classes, and to be confident in there abilities. Let them know that you have their back, and will support them if the slip. Encourage them to me challenges head on. </p>

<p>Please listen carefully and protect you daughter from those well intended voices who are undermining their opportunities for the future. Challenge the Underminer to instill confidence in our daughters instead of sowing the seeds of doubt. </p>

<p>This type of change happens one person at a time. Please, encourage your daughter today. Help her with her math, or get her a tutor to help her, show her that she can do it, that you believe in her, and that you support her. When she is successful, treat her like a RockStar, and encourage her to take up the next challenge. These changes will be good for girls and good for America, and they start with each one of us.</p>

<p>I don’t disagree, but at least up until high school - I got exactly the same lines for my boys.</p>

<p>My DD had an AP History teacher in HS that got her to drop his class. She was getting a C - which because it was weighted was a B. She was fine with that, she was learning so much and loved the class because it was challenging. He kept after her to drop the class and so she finally did - ended up in regular history and ended up getting a 100% in the class and was bored out of her mind. She wanted to learn more in-depth history but perhaps he was concerned because she would bring down the average or not do well on the test and that would look bad for him. His loss.</p>

<p>Where is the data supporting these claims?? Not here. It is just possible they do have different interests at a basic level. When the big comp sci convention comes to town it is heavly male. When bio-med and bio eng comes it is about 50-50 male-female. Same for doctors. </p>

<p>[CARPE</a> DIEM: Structural Barriers Discourage Girls From Going Into Math and Science? Not According to the Data.](<a href=“http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/01/structural-barriers-that-discourage.html]CARPE”>CARPE DIEM: Structural Barriers Discourage Girls From Going Into Math and Science? Not According to the Data.)</p>

<p>I was never discouraged from taking hard math classes in HS, and that was back in the late '70s. I went on to get my master’s degree in structural engineering. In grad school, I mixed and tested concrete just as the guys did.</p>

<p>Sorry I don’t buy this, as a general proposition. At my daughter’s magnet school, probably 70% of the top students are female. I have never seen any authority figure at her school be anything other than 100% supportive of whatever challenge her and her friends take on. And we reside in the South. Her best courses are math and science. The boys in those classes admire her intellectual abilities.<br>
There are plenty of talented STEM females, they just don’t typically choose certain career paths for lifestyle purposes. My daughter could be a petroleum engineer, biologist, math teacher etc… She wants to go to medical school though, I suspect because she has encountered many female physicians who are able to balance work and family while making a very good living.</p>

<p>I don’t agree overall. Math-wise and science-wise I haven’t run into this. But most of my and my kid’s schooling has been very science-oriented. If anything, our community strives to be more science oriented. Male and female. Maybe it’s the culture.</p>

<p>But lamm–my D had an AP history teacher who was so anti-female that we pulled my D out of his class almost immediately. He upfront told female students that they didn’t have a chance. “They were not smart enough”. He drew clear lines of male vs female expectations. We couldn’t believe it when told that by D. After a one-on-one meeting, my H (who’s a die-hard “stick with it”) pulled her out of the class. Unfortunately as a parent you make your choices for your OWN kid–not those following you.</p>

<p>Have a D who is an engineer and I don’t agree with your claims. Not sure where you got your information from but D was encouraged from the start to explore her math ability and her mechanical abilities. </p>

<p>If there was any deterrent it was from boys who could be jealous that she can put together things better than them. But nothing ever came from her parents, teachers or guidance office. In fact it was the opposite, including great opportunities with camps and college acceptances.</p>

<p>Much2learn: Boys also can receive negative messages regarding classes. Too many times, I have heard teachers tell guys not to take AP English, because guys are not big writers or readers. They would be better off in an honors (should the school offer it) or regular English class. Just ask my youngest son. Teachers often discouraged him from taking AP English, because he’s not a big reader or writer. Some questioned his maturity level. Fortunately, he went against their recommendation. Now, he loves his AP English teacher. Moreover, his interest in reading and writing continues to grow. His older brother is an outstanding writer, and that skills served him well in helping him to secure all kinds of scholarship money for college. His female classmates would line up to have him read their essays, because he was a terrific editor and always fair. So negative messages can go both ways.</p>

<p>By the way, at my youngest son’s high school, there are 13 math teachers. All but two are female, including his BC calculus and AP stat teachers.</p>

<p>My 60’s advanced math and science classes were at least half female. HS also had good sports program for the girls before it Title 9. I think for a semi-rural public HS they did a great job. Besides college prep track they also had very several very good career prep options. Those have evolved into a county-wide poly-tech high school. </p>

<p>[Hunterdon</a> County Polytech Career Academy - HCPOLYTECH](<a href=“http://www.hcpolytech.org/hcpoly/HS/Programs%20of%20Study/]Hunterdon”>http://www.hcpolytech.org/hcpoly/HS/Programs%20of%20Study/)</p>

<p>Well Barron’s, this article is at best misleading. </p>

<p>Maybe girls take the same number of years worth of math classes, but they don’t take the same math classes. If you know anything about this subject, you know that by the time you get to BC Calculus, or Physics C, or multi-variable Calculus, the girls in the class are significantly outnumbered and that this is true with great consistency across the country. It shows up consistently in almost every school and data and is easy to find. Try Physics C test takers for example.</p>

<p>It is odd to me that you post and article arguing that girls do take these classes in the same numbers as boys and then post a comment above suggesting that girls do not take these subjects because they are just not interested. I do not think you can have it both ways. </p>

<p>Thank you for illustrating the exact type of defensive behavior that Underminers exhibit when this issue is raised.</p>

<p>First, deny the problem and then, if you can support that, they shift to the argument that girls are just not interested. Continuing to throw up barriers, and distractions, and raise more questions. Basically it is not what they want to be true, and they will do anything to avoid acknowledging that there is a problem and beginning to work to fix it. </p>

<p>If you are an honest and objective person, and if you are more interested in knowing the truth than in being right, you can see this happening every day around you. You really don’t need a research study. In the words of Yogi Berra, “You can observe a lot, just by watching.” (or in this case, listening). Unfortunately, most people would rather push the view that they would like be true, than to try to understand what is actually happening and fix it.</p>

<p>Yea, I don’t agree either. I have 3 girls who all did very well in math and science and were always encouraged by us and their teachers. One is currently an engineering major.</p>

<p>Barrons, the CARPE DIEM article is more than misleading. The author doesn’t use the stats correctly. I went to the CollegeBoard table he used. All the percents showed was that in general, there are more female students than male students in high school.</p>

<p>The percentages show the gender split in each math level of high attainment. In other words, of all the students who topped out at Calculus, 50% were boys and 50% were girls; while the students who topped out at Algebra II were split 43% male and 57% female. It says nothing about proportions of highest math attainment within gender. So, boys took 3.9 years of math and girls took 3.8 years of math, you don’t know WHAT math courses they took. The equal number of years taken has more to do with high school graduation requirements than interest.</p>

<p>I don’t agree with the proposition either. </p>

<p>I also feel every student has the right to follow his or her strongest talents, wherever they may lie.</p>

<p>Could we possibly get beyond the idea that the only worthwhile careers are in science and engineering?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Can you show me where this was stated in this thread? I don’t see it anywhere.</p>

<p>It wasn’t explicitly stated, but the initial post focused heavily on math and science. Do you think I misinterpreted the OP’s focus?</p>

<p>IME as someone who has been working in the computer tech field, it’s much more subtle and complex than even that. There’s a lifestyle element…but not only or even mainly in hours/schedules. </p>

<p>IME, there’s also an element of the culture in certain fields like engineering/CS where one-upsmanship and “nerdier than thou” games can get quite cutthroat at times. If one can look at how many linux forums treated newbies back in the '90s and early '00s…you can get an idea of how bad it can be. Thankfully, the linux community…especially those in userfriendly distros like Ubuntu and Mint have gotten so much better and are now very supportive of newbies and go out of their way to help them…a 180 degree turnaround to what I remembered during my late undergrad years.</p>

<p>There’s an element of “nerdier than thou” one-upsmanship at Stuyvesant when I was there. However, the young women were just as willing and happy to participate in it and were more likely to be in the academic top 25%…and during the 2-3 year span…the vals have all been women…including the one for my graduating class.</p>

<p>Much2…this was NOT the experience our daughter had in high school, or in college. She was very strong in math and science and majored in engineering in undergrad school. There was much encouragement for women to take courses in, and pursue careers in the STEM fields.</p>

<p>Did I miss what caused the initial screed? Count me as disagreeing. Our oldest D had a special pull out math class with the Female Principal of her school who had a PhD in Math. She CHOSE to go into English for college. Her sister has a math degree. And she can outnerd most boys (including in her current job where she codes in Linux and Fortran :eek:).</p>