<p>I also do not agree with the premise of this thread. </p>
<p>My girls were great at math and science, got pretty much all As in both subjects, and took courses in both subjects all 4 years of high school. They were just not interested at all in pursuing careers in those areas, and did not continue in college, except for the minimum requirements. </p>
<p>I don’t see any reason why girls should be “encouraged” to pursue those subjects over any other subject that interests them more.</p>
<p>My daughter did well in both math and science in school. But she liked math and disliked science. She majored in economics in college and chose a career path that involves math but not science.</p>
<p>I don’t think she should have been “encouraged” to do something different. Like Bay, I think it’s fine for her to pursue what interests her.</p>
<p>much2learn-HS vs college. Know the difference. As others noted–many girls just prefer Bio over physics and econ over comp sci. No conspiracy there.</p>
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<p>Some of the women I knew who had similar academic profiles have cited the far lesser degree of “nerdier than thou” one-upsmanship in Econ and its more “mainstream corporate image” as reasons for opting for Econ over other STEM fields, especially engineering/CS.</p>
<p>Among math, physics, and engineering/CS folks, Econ is often viewed as a fallback field for those whose math/science skills aren’t up to the standards of their respective fields. Now whether that’s fair or justified or not is a separate matter…</p>
<p>There are two tracks within econ–math heavy theoretical and more social science using applied stats.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s as clear cut as all that. There may be less girls going into math and science but MORE girls are going to college period. That includes Harvard and even universities in Alaska where men outnumber women in the general population.</p>
<p>I’m not sold on how any of our children are educated by any means but I have to tell you, I’ve found K-12 a pretty hostile environment for boys.</p>
<p>Okay, I’ll play along. I agree that there will be naysayers responding to my daughter’s aspirations with a “really?” vs. a “really!”. What I don’t agree with is the vast conspiracy of keeping the women-folk down. I know the OP used words “more likely” to support their narrative instead of my “vast conspiracy”, but it’s still their fictional narrative (aka hypothesis) to try to explain some skewed trends.</p>
<p>I’ll meet the OP halfway and promise to teach 12 YO who happens to be female to learn to:</p>
<p>a) analyze someone’s statement/question and not automatically accept their premise.
b) accept praise/encouragement at a rate equal to or greater than detracting statements, and
c) pick five or so people you admire and periodically ask yourself and/with them some hard questions about yourself and humbly accept their feedback, and finally
d) do not presume things will be given to you and you need to be prepared to take things. </p>
<p>Admittedly the five advisor rule isn’t something I will, well, adviser her on until she’s older. It’s difficult to learn to trust the right people. I know the take/give rule sounds sinister, but I view it in the same way that we would advise someone to assert themselves or “lean in”.</p>
<p>Mom Reads: I agree. This can and does obviously happen to boys too. However, it happens to girls more frequently. Not long ago, I was told by a girl’s father that he was happy that his daughter was waitlisted for premed at Harvard because he thought that it takes too long and she should just get a 4 year degree and then focus on having a family. I have never in my life heard a parent say that about a son.</p>
<p>Marian: I am not suggesting that science and engineering are the only way to go at all. I am saying that girls who choose difficult classes and majors are more frequently underminded and discouraged than boys are.</p>
<p>Periwinkle and Bay et al: I never said that girls should be rerouted to anything. I competely agree that they should do what interests them. I am saying that girls that express an interest in taking the most challenging, male dominated areas are more likely to be encouraged less and questioned more. I used the example of being supportive of math, but I clearly stated throughout that I was talking about how people respond to a girl expressing interest. I said nothing about rerouting anyone.</p>
<p>A couple of months ago a girl told me that she had decided to go to MIT if she is accepted. She may or may not be accepted, but she her grades and test scores are better than 90% of applicants and she has decent ECs. A counselor suggested that the MIT would be a lot of work and suggested that she consider easier colleges where she might be happier. The counselor also suggested that a degree is a degree and that there is no benefit in going to the more challenging school. Now she is reconsidering her decision. </p>
<p>I have never seen boys questioned so actively and negatively for expressing an interest in a top school when they are a credible candidate. Furthermore, it is possible that the counselor is right and she will be happier in the long run if she goes to an easier college. All I am saying is that this is much less likely to happen to boys, and that is a problem.</p>
<p>Much2learn, I just want to say I, as a boy, had a similar response from my GCs throughout high school. They’d question me wanting to max out on APs, doing all these STEM-type ECs, and whatnot. Why didn’t I want to take a lighter course load maybe a few nice art classes.</p>
<p>My counselors tried to get me to go to apply to much easier schools for college, and somewhat discouraged me from attending the school I wound up loving (one known for rigor and heavy course loads).</p>
<p>I honestly felt through most of my schooling very very few teachers “got” the smart kids and understood why we were the way we were. I’m sure this manifests itself in different ways for both boys and girls.</p>
<p>For the most part I have had a lot of success as a physics major, and although I have doubted myself a lot of the time, I have found many wonderful mentors (all but one of them are male) at my university who have strongly encouraged me to apply for things like REUs and fellowships. Sometimes they may not exactly understand certain issues I face, but I think it’s just because they are not aware. For example, my research advisor often tells me he wants me to talk more in group meeting. I’m not exactly sure he understands how intimidating it is for me to talk in front of three incredibly esteemed and inquisitive middle aged male professors not to mention of the grad students and post docs, only one is female and she speaks up less than I do. I would rather prefer to listen to everyone and only speak after I have completely thought something through.</p>
<p>What bothers me the most are the reactions I get from other girls when I tell them I am a physics major. A lot of the times I get something like “Wow good for you. I’m so bad at math.” When I talk about my research and plans to go to graduate school, they usually pretend to act interested, but it is kind of obvious some of them don’t understand why I would ever want to do that.</p>
<p>Similarly, at the pre-college level, I think that the sexism of female teachers towards female students is almost just as bad as that from male teachers. Especially female elementary school teachers who may send the message that it is okay for a girl not to like math. I definitely noticed in high school that my teachers did not really encourage me to go into science. Some might have thought I should be a doctor, but especially my humanities teachers were surprise when I said I wanted to do chemistry (which eventually morphed into physics, specifically hard condensed matter theory). </p>
<p>I got the impression that my AP physics teacher wasn’t especially encouraging the girls in the class to go into physics or engineering nearly as much as he encouraged the boys. Another girls I know thought he was outright sexist. But it does hurt as a girl to watch the teachers heap mounds of praise onto certain male students and treat you like you don’t have any talent or potential. When I told my post high school counselor my college list (which consisted of several Ivys and other top schools), he kept trying to force schools like Syracuse and Rochester on the list even after I had explained I didn’t particularly want to go to upstate NY. Whenever I talked about applications, any encouragement seemed to be very superficial, like he didn’t think I was qualified to go to any of my top choice schools. </p>
<p>These thoughts are still with me today, even though my mentors are incredibly supportive and seem to be much more optimistic than I am about my graduate school prospects.</p>
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<p>Huh? I sure didn’t see this from the counselors and relatives when our girls were in high school. This looks like a complaint in search of a problem. Just who are these Underminers and how did both my daughters escape their notice? </p>
<p>Both girls took the honors/AP track through HS, including the toughest math. Both girls majored in science at highly-selective colleges. Heck, D1 even majored in Physics. And in her post-grad career the software engineers often come to her to program differential equations and other advanced math functions they need, because they know she’s good at it and enjoys it.</p>
<p>So there may be all these Underminers lurking out there somewhere, but I sure haven’t seen them.</p>
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<p>There is probably more “undermining” going on in more typical high schools (rather than the high schools where most students are aiming for highly selective colleges). Such schools may not have the course offerings to accommodate high achieving students, so the general school culture (teachers, counselors, other students) may not encourage high achievement. That would not be limited to female students in math and science.</p>
<p>There may also be “undermining” going on for other reasons. Students who transfer high schools may find issues where high achievement at a prior school is devalued to lower their GPA or class rank, or limit their access to the most rigorous courses offered at the new high school.</p>
<p>Much2learn, Im surprised to hear Harvard has a premed major, are you sure?</p>
<p>I am only sure of what her father told me. I assume that he meant biology, and said premed because she was getting that degree with the intention of going to medical school.</p>
<p>Much2learn: Want to talk about undermining students? As a parent as well as a teacher, I often see boys who have a “brain” bullied. Other boys will taunt them because they want to be good students and succeed academically. Those bullies see academics as unmanly. I can remember many years ago while teaching a fifth grade class, one of the boys told me that he could be the best student in his class, but he chose to be average. He did not want to be picked on. My sons have been the victims of bullying from girls who resent their intelligence. </p>
<p>With girls, the bullying may come from adults, but with boys, it is their peers.</p>
<p>In my department, professors are incredibly supportive of women in physics. However, there are some things that I have had to get used to, like being the only girl in group meeting or class, which has happened three times, once in a lab section, again in thermal physics, and now this semester in quantum field theory (where I am also the only undergrad). Some girl may be very turned off by this, but now that I am more confident I don’t have an issue with this.</p>
<p>I have heard many girls say that they feel that the department at their school is actually slightly hostile towards female students. I think many of these issues vary widely among departments. There are several places I know for a fact are actively trying to promote women in physics. A lot of this has to do with the faculty administration. Although MIT Physics department has the reputation of being a very difficult place for women, I believe a lot of that has changed. I met the current chair at a conference for women and physics and he is incredibly dedicated to promoting women in science and making people aware of the issues women may face. I also did an REU at Michigan and know that their department is also very dedicated to promoting women in physics. They have the most balanced graduate student and faculty body I have seen so far.</p>
<p>I have boy-girl twins. We have absolutely never experienced any of this so-called undermining based on gender from anyone. It’s ludicrous to think that someone would encourage our S to go to a top school but not our D. Sorry, I don’t buy the premise expressed in the article at all.</p>
<p>“Among math, physics, and engineering/CS folks, Econ is often viewed as a fallback field for those whose math/science skills aren’t up to the standards of their respective fields. Now whether that’s fair or justified or not is a separate matter…”</p>
<p>Why should anyone care how other people “regard” their major? How odd that your math/physics/eng friends would think that Econ majors should care about their opinions.</p>
<p>I think the undermining described by the OP does go on in some places. I don’t think I could provide a one-characterization-holds-for-all description of the places where it happens. It is not surprising to me that coureur’s family and PG’s family did not encounter it, though. </p>
<p>Poeme, it is great that you are taking quantum field theory! I think you will really enjoy it! It’s a lovely theory. What text are you using? I like A. Zee’s Quantum Field Theory in a Nutshell as an accompaniment to one of the more standard texts–it’s very readable and if you go back and forth between it and another text (such as Peskin and Schroeder), both become better.</p>
<p>Sorry for the intrusion of nerdism, but I thought that the suggestion might be useful enough to other women physics students who might happen upon this thread, that I shouldn’t confine it to a PM to Poeme.</p>
<p>So far, I’ve only read the OP on this thread but had to comment. I actually laughed at most of the post because I have two daughters and I don’t think life is really like it was described in the post. I will say that when my oldest was in 3rd grade her teacher told her that her strong subject was math and my daughter’s first reaction was to make a face because she didn’t think girls should like math (she’s 21 now so that was a long time ago). I immediately told her that being good at math was great and it would lead to being good at a lot of other things. After that, she embraced math and actually loved science. She’s not the best student though so she did not stick with science in college (it’s true that you have to be a hard worker to succeed in a STEM field and she would rather take a less challenging road through college).</p>
<p>My youngest is a freshman in college and her major is systems engineering (she likes business and math and that combines both). Several girls were in her AP math and science classes (not computer science though) but she became great friends with the boys so being in a class with a handful of girls was fine with her (and that really was only in calc and comp sci). The college she attends has about 30% women in their engineering school so it is definitely more female-friendly than a lot of other engineering schools. She prefers being in classes with people who want to be there so no matter what the gender make-up is, if they are all there to learn, she’s happy in the class.</p>
<p>I think society has come a long way (although it’s not fully there yet) in realizing the value of math for both boys and girls and I don’t think it’s as discouraging for girls who really do have an aptitude for math and science anymore. We’ll see if my opinion changes as I read the rest of the comments.</p>