<p>Um, dude, that's not a "threat" - that's a comment asking you to be respectful of people's firsthand experience of the situation.</p>
<hr>
<p>Of course not everything is fine - we might (probably?) have just had one of our sports teams commit rape.</p>
<p>Many Duke students, however, believe that this represents the actions of a select group of our students and don't believe that implies anything about our own educations and community - yes, we have a very different variety of groups on campus, and some of them behave inappropriately.</p>
<p>We don't believe that that generalizes to all of us. And whether we ask you to believe that or not, we DO ask you to at least be respectful and understand that your own knowledge of the situation is at best incomplete.</p>
<p>Think about it for a sec. How would you enjoy someone who has absolutely no first-hand experience with a problem close to you preaching about supposedly ignoring it? I also fail to see where people are "pretending the problem doesn't exist."</p>
<p>Please, posters, abide by the Courtesy rules of the Terms of Service. Keep all posts to the topic of the thread and avoid making any personal attacks on other posters. </p>
<p>ALL the attention that Duke is getting is because a horrible crime may have been committed there...not bec members of the media are jealous for not having gone to Duke.
If this rape took place and there is very strong evidence that it did...those boys will and SHOULD go to prison. The admin. should be made to answer to cimes committed on their campus by their students.</p>
<p>I hope at attend Duke next year( I'm a junior) bec it's great university but let's not pretend that horrendous acts committed by people didn't happen or that it doesn't matter. Those who have been given tremendous opportunities in life such as attending great universities are supposed to try to give back...not try to take more..</p>
<p>About the Sean Dockery/ineligibility thing...</p>
<p>I have to admit - one of the best parts of my freshman year experience has been the basketball. Tenting in K-Ville, waiting on line for tickets, painting myself with my friends, going crazy at the games, celebrating after, learning the chants, going from being completely clueless about what to do at my 1st game (Duke-Davidson 11/19) to starting certain taunts when the other team goes to the free throw line. It's been amazing - and one of the reasons why I'm so glad that I chose Duke over any other of the schools I got into. It really sets it apart from the rest of the "elite" schools because really, no other top tier school has fandom to this extent and it is A LOT OF FUN.</p>
<p>With that said...
When you think about the concept of college admissions, there's a reason why every incoming student - athlete or not - does not have a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 (or, 2400 I guess) SAT score. Trust me...if Duke wanted to, they could fill the entire class with this type of student. But they don't. Duke rejects plenty of applicants with perfect SAT scores (Guttentag told us that they rejected 1 out of every 4 applicants with a 1600, 1 out of every 3 applicants with a 1560-1590, and half of all applicants with a 1540-1560...ouch!). And why is that? Because what would happen if they automatically accepted all of the "perfect" kids, and then looked at the incoming freshman class and realized that the orchestra had no musicians? Or there were no black/asian/hispanic/native american/indian students? Or there was no one to act in any of the plays? Or there were no photographers to take pictures for the Chronicle? Or that every student was from 1 state? Admissions standards are technically "lowered" for any number of reasons - whether those reasons are so that the student body can relax and enjoy some great singing at an a cappella concert, or so we can have a diverse student body that we can learn from. I mean, I know that I didn't have a perfect SAT score or a 4.0 GPA, but I'm obviously here because Duke felt that I had something to offer the community. And I think that it should extend to athletics, too. I mean, I certainly don't think Duke would be as amazing of a college experience as it is if if weren't for the sports events we are able to attend.</p>
<p>Am I saying that the athletes shouldn't be held to the same morals, values, and codes of honor as the rest of Duke students? OF COURSE NOT. I think that any misguided actions that may have happened on the night of the alleged rape are disgusting and unforgiveable, and the perpetrators should be thrown behind bars and never released. But if we make ACADEMIC exceptions in admissions for other applicants just because of certain things that they will "bring" to the community - why should it be any different for athletes? I know that I personally don't mind knowing that I go to school with a couple of kids who may not have gotten in had it not been for athletics if I know that they will provide me with the ability to paint myself blue and relax after a midterm by screaming my lungs out for a victory. There are plenty of brilliant students here, and the athletes only represent a small portion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I hope at attend Duke next year( I'm a junior) bec it's great university but let's not pretend that horrendous acts committed by people didn't happen or that it doesn't matter. Those who have been given tremendous opportunities in life such as attending great universities are supposed to try to give back...not try to take more..
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think the administration, students, duke community as a whole are doing a great job addressing these issues - by the time you get here, if all goes as planned, Duke will probably be one of the leaders in addressing these issues. I know that Duke has always given so much to Durham and will continue to do so, hopefully when you come visit or decide to go here you will see that in person.</p>
<p>bandcampgirl
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**and the perpetrators should be thrown behind bars and never released.
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**</p>
<p>Harsh......could you explain how you think the punishment phase of a trial would work???</p>
<p>
[quote]
**But if we make ACADEMIC exceptions in admissions for other applicants just because of certain things that they will "bring" to the community - why should it be any different for athletes?
[/quote]
**</p>
<p>Would you mind sharing how you would feel if athletes are given academic exception in the academic standard....say in a class you are taking with one?? Do your value your academic work and integrity? Some have mentioned that athletes are accorded privilege with regard to work/exams/intergrity. Does the student body at Duke have any feeling about this??</p>
<p>
[quote]
Harsh......could you explain how you think the punishment phase of a trial would work???
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</p>
<p>I wasn't saying that's LITERALLY how it should work. That's how I wish it would work, since I think that rape and sexual assault are both disgusting, terrible acts of violence and I would love to see perpetrators get locked away forever. But can you please try not to nitpick at things that I totally meant as an exaggeration? I believe that anyone found guilty should be punished to the appropriate extent of the law. Happy now?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would you mind sharing how you would feel if athletes are given academic exception in the academic standard....say in a class you are taking with one?? Do your value your academic work and integrity? Some have mentioned that athletes are accorded privilege with regard to work/exams/intergrity. Does the student body at Duke have any feeling about this??
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</p>
<p>Obviously I value my academic work and integrity. It is very frustrating how you are clearly just trying to take things I say and twist them into something else. There are so-called "athlete classes" that everyone knows about that tend to have a lot of athletes in them...I have actually been in 2 of these "athlete classes." But within these classes, the athletes are held to the same standards, same grading curves, etc. as everyone else. </p>
<p>As I have seen others do, I will ask you to please stop taking time to specifically try and bash Duke and be condescending towards the Dukies on this board...although I doubt that me asking you this will do any good.</p>
<p>Hazmat, I've tried to be as cordial as possible in this response, but please look a few posts above when a moderator asked for no personal attacks. I hope that what I've said hasn't come off as one, but I really feel like some of your posts on the Duke threads are bordering on attacks. Thanks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
**As I have seen others do, I will ask you to please stop taking time to specifically try and bash Duke and be condescending towards the Dukies on this board...although I doubt that me asking you this will do any good.</p>
<p>Hazmat, I've tried to be as cordial as possible in this response, but please look a few posts above when a moderator asked for no personal attacks. I hope that what I've said hasn't come off as one, but I really feel like some of your posts on the Duke threads are bordering on attacks. Thanks.
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**</p>
<p>I am not bashing Duke as you assert but rather questioning your personal words.........having a discussion about your assertions and opinions. My limiting discussion to your words isn't an ad hominem attack. You would do well to learn the difference.
[quote]
**There are so-called "athlete classes" that everyone knows about that tend to have a lot of athletes in them...I have actually been in 2 of these "athlete classes." But within these classes, the athletes are held to the same standards, same grading curves, etc. as everyone else.
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**</p>
<p>and we are to assume you are an athlete, or that you used your common knowledge to take classes with athletes or that you didn't know but do know? I am not sure what you are sharing here. The question is more to is attendance an important factor? do athletes get private tutoring that isn't available to you? do they set the curve you are mentioning? would you be aware if the athletes did get preference in access to materials and tutoring??</p>
<p>My daughter has been accepted into the class of '10. She is still in the process of deciding which school she will attend.</p>
<p>Some months ago I read the book "I Am Charlotte Simmons" by Tom Wolfe. As I read this novel that is commonly understood to be about a school like Duke, with high powered academics, athletics, and fraternities, I hoped that the events portrayed in the novel were exaggerated accounts of the 'dark side' of Duke.</p>
<p>Now, following the LAX scandal, I am hearing about an alleged rape and racial event that is much worse than those portrayed in the novel.</p>
<p>Today in one newspaper there was an article entitled 'Duke shifts into damage control". In the last paragraph of the article President Broadhead said "The notion that this kind of behavior is confined to athletes is just not so," Broadhead said, adding that the episode could have just as easily taken place in a fraternity. Now I am feeling really relieved, knowing that my daughter has to be careful not only with the male athletes in the 'big sports' at Duke, but also with some fraternity members.</p>
<p>Now, agreed, I did not read the full text of Broadhead's message as quoted above. I will try to do that sometime today. But overall, this recent event just illustrates the accuracy of what Tom Wolfe was writing about in "I am Charlotte Simmons".</p>
<p>I'm sorry to hear that, new/old mom, and I'm surprised to hear that Brodhead would say something like that. I appreciate your willingness to keep an open mind. I must admit that I haven't haven't read Charlotte Simmons yet, but I'm trying to track down a copy. Please, please keep in mind that at least half of Duke's student body is not a member of a Greek organization. Our sports teams can not be clumped together- you simply wouldn't have this situation with our basketball or cross country team. There are drawbacks to the social scene at Duke, certainly. However, there are so many things that compensate for it. For every frat that occasionally has drunken parties, there are two or three selective living groups working hard to improve living conditions in Durham. For every swaggering athlete, there are two practicing a duet in the Biddle music hall. For every idiot who shouts racial epithets, you have hundreds who protest outside the adminstrative building to protest the unjust firing of a housekeeper. With over 6000 undergraduate students from every state and various parts of the world, you will get tremendous diversity, which can be good and bad. I understand your concern. The element described in Charlotte Simmons exists at Duke and a good many other places (like Dartmouth and its Animal House reputation). As long as these problems exist, you should be concerned. Please realize, however, that that these people do not represent the majority or even large minority of Duke students.</p>
<p>
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**Our sports teams can not be clumped together- you simply wouldn't have this situation with our basketball or cross country team.
[/quote]
**</p>
<p>the situation of alleged rape?? The situation of hiring a stripper for a special spring break party? Which?</p>
<p>Paul DeMarco, Duke Baseball Pitcher
[quote]
**The problem at Duke wasn't only a lacrosse problem, he said. The baseball team, he said, also had trouble with heavy drinking, rowdiness and academic problems during his playing years there from 2002 to 2004. The behavior led to frequent meetings with coach Bill Hillier and even a dressing-down by a Duke dean who said she was tired of complaints about baseball players.
<p>new/old mom - as a mom of 2 daughters and 2 sons I understand your concern - I too am concerned for my soon to be college attending daughter - no matter where she attends. I belonged to a sorority when I was in college and witnessed some very poor decision making when alcohol entered the picture. I don't believe for one instant that this behavior is limited to athletes and fraternity members (and only at Duke). I think as parents we have the responsibility to teach our sons how to appropriately treat women and teach our daughters that they need to remove themselves from situations where things can rapidly get out of control. I am more concerned about someone putting something in my daughter's drink than anything else! I am waiting to see how this situation plays out at Duke - for I am not willing to pass judgement yet just by reading the media accounts. However it turns out it will not change the fact that I will hope that my children, at whatever college they attend, will make the right choices and be safe and responsible.</p>
<p>new/old mom--at the beginning of I am Charlotte Simmons, Tom Wolfe thanks "students, athletes, faculty, coaches" and "alumni" at five schools he visited while researching: UMich-Ann Arbor, UNC-Chapel Hill, Stanford University, and Florida-Gainesville, and Alabama-Huntsville. Duke is nowhere on the list, so unless Wolfe mentioned the school elsewhere (and he may have), I don't know how his book became associated with Duke.</p>
<p>Also, the book's portrayal of the college crowd is simply inaccurate. The use of slang and profanity is exaggerated, as is the prevalence of fake IDs and random hook ups. It is, at its roots, entertainment, and it is designed to sell copies--drinking, drugs, and sex sell copies, but writing papers and studying for finals do not. Take the book for what it is.</p>
<p>As for athletes getting academic concessions, when I visited Penn, my tour guide told us: "If you want easy classes, follow the football players." Even in the "halls of Ivy," not everyone is there to learn, as our friend Hazmat can tell you.</p>
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At elite Dupont (a fictional school based on Wolfe's research at places like Stanford and Michigan)...
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</p>
<p>Reviewer on Amazon:
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Charlotte's isolation, even given the Northern locale, isn't entirely plausible...
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</p>
<p>So we see that it may have roots in many different schools, but it's clearly not meant to be "Duke" in any truly or solely representative sense.</p>
<hr>
<p>Hazmat, if you think it's meant to represent Duke - say, over Stanford - then explain why rather than continuing to make your snide insinuations.</p>