Ds just called and asked what we thought about him graduating in 3 yrs vs. 4. Dh and I have no experience with grad school applications and have no clue how to advise him. (He is attending on full scholarship, so financially there no motive to graduate early.)
By the end of his fall semester of his jr yr, he will have completed everything for a double in math and physics and could graduate then. By the end of the spring semester jr yr, he will have completed his minor in honors research. He has been engaged in UG research since 2nd semester freshman yr, including a summer paid position. He has a 4.0. The main difference between graduating in 4 yrs vs 3 is that he can actually earn his masters in physics if he stays for his 4th yr. (He will still be taking grad level classes in physics his jr yr bc he will have finished all UG courses next semester.)
He plans to apply to graduate programs for either particle or nuclear physics. Obviously, the longer he is an UG, the more research experience and the more grad level classes he will have taken.
His academic adviser is the only person whose POV is relevant here- your son can’t make a good decision without knowing where other students from his department have been accepted and what their CV’s looked like.
I agree that he will get the best advice from the professors in his department. His advisor in Physics, and possibly the prof he has researched with if they are not the same person.
I would reiterate blossom’s comment in regards to academics. My DD was in a similar position a year ago. Her adviser was able to provide good insight. This included advice as to some grad level courses she should take to make her a stronger candidate for top grad schools and to better prepare her for grad school.
In addition to academics my DD had some other factors that she weighed in her decision. These included the opportunity to further some leadership positions that she held on campus as well as TA and grade for different professors and higher level classes than she had to that point. Additionally, there was a social aspect - how much did she want to be with her friends for the 4th year.
My DD decided to stay for the 4th year. It appears to have been a good decision as she participated in a research program over the summer that really allowed her to research in areas that she was interested in and helped her make connections at a number of schools, has advanced to leadership positions that have expanded her responsibilities, is working closely with a prof on research she is interested in exploring further as a grad student, and has been grading for a more advanced class.
All this being said, I think the most important thing we did for our DD was to act as a sounding board and make sure she considered all of the important factors associated with this decision.
Some of my advice definitely depends on where he wants to study for the PhD. If it is NOT where he is now, I would tell him to graduate after Spring Junior year and go on to the desired graduate school (assuming an acceptance by then, as he would be applying Fall Junior year). Doing the master’s at current school then going to different PhD school is not the best path, IMHO.
People getting PhD’s in Physics don’t need the intermediate Master’s Degree. Going on to the graduate school allows more time to work with professors and other grad students THERE, as well as making a place for himself there. Presumably, he would also get a Teaching Assistantship and tuition waiver (very likely, especially if English is his first language.) So there is potentially a financial motivation to finish and move on, especially as you have another kid to worry about, eh?
Only his department faculty/chairperson and academic advisor can give him solid advice. He should however check into whether or not he is required to pay for 8 semesters whether or not academically eligible for early graduation.
Thanks for the info. If I understand him correctly (which is always questionable!!), he wasn’t intending to use the masters degree for anything other than strengthening his qualifications as an applicant. He is planning on applying to top schools for either nuclear or particle physics (definitely not where he is an UG.)
(He is attending on full scholarship, so finances are not really a factor behind his decision. Really, it is being able to get into a top program for the field he wants to pursue.)
Your S should plan for graduating in 3 years. That plan includes applying for graduation and applying for grad school.
Grad schools send out admission decisions during January and March. If he’s not accepted to a grad school, withdraw the application for graduation and stay UG for another year. Most schools allow graduation plan changes until May.
If he’s accepted to a grad school, great. If he’s not, spend that year as an undergrad and focus on research and publishing papers. When he applies for grad school next year, he’s at a great advantage.
I don’t recommend this. Then when he applies for Ph.D., he’ll have to compete with other M.S. candidates with research experience. 1 year M.S. program is for people wanting to work afterward, not going on to Ph.D… He will not have much time for research.
Note that Ph.D. admission is based greatly on research experience.
I’m not sure about the “definitely not” part. The old thinking is that one should not get undergrad and grad degrees at the same school. That thinking probably made some sense a long time ago, when communications were not as easy/efficient as today. For people working in the industry, it doesn’t really matter. For people in academia, it becomes less important. I see more and more professors having degrees from the same school. Case in point:
“Tsu-Jae King Liu - EE Division Chair and Department Chair, UC Berkeley - B.S., M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Electrical Engineering from Stanford University in 1984, 1986 and 1994.”
If his school is a top 5 in physics in undergrad and also a top 5 in physics in grad, who cares if he has both degrees from the same school or not.
I think there is some bad advice being handed out here.
First, let me repeat the good advice given by blossom and intparent: This is a matter for the student to discuss with his department and the faculty on whose recommendations he expects to rely when he applies to PhD programs. Not his mother, and not kibbitzers on CC. Whether he “graduates” in three years or four, he should be building and executing a strategy for the next phase of his education, and he should be doing it in collaboration with his academic mentors.
Second, in my experience it is extremely common for colleges to offer strong students a program where they spend their fourth undergraduate year obtaining a master’s degree, and it’s common for strong students to accept that offer. Not because the fourth-year master’s is such a useful degree in and of itself. It won’t be all that useful as a terminal degree, and it won’t likely shave any time off a top PhD program. What it will do, however – and what’s worth doing – is identify the student to the part of the world that matters – physics departments at other universities – as a hard charger and hard worker who is making the most of the opportunities at his undergraduate institution. It gives him a chance to make it obvious he can handle advanced coursework and professional-level writing, while remaining engaged with his faculty and his research. The only thing different about this program – Alabama, right? – is that while most universities do this by awarding simultaneous bachelor’s and master’s degrees at the end of year four, this university wants him to “graduate” at the end of year three and graduate again at the end of year four.
Effectively, the OP’s kid has three options: 1. Graduate in three years and apply to doctoral programs in his third year (or get a job, and apply during the next year). 2. Graduate in four years without doing the master’s program, and apply to doctoral programs in his fourth year. 3. Graduate in four years with a BS and MS, and apply to doctoral programs in his fourth year. While repeating my first position – he should listen to his professors, not to me – it wouldn’t surprise me at all if, provided he can handle the work, Option #3 is the no-brainer best course of action.
@JHS Yes, that is a decent summation of the situation, except he does not need to graduate in 3 yrs in order to earn his masters. He can essentially graduate with both degrees simultaneously. (At least that is my current understanding.)
If he completed the masters degree, would it negatively affect his applying to PhD programs? (We know nothing about graduate school, so I am trying to understand what everyone is posting.)
I will definitely have him speak to his professors about graduating in 3 vs 4 yrs.
The conversation with professors and his departmental adviser needs to be a bigger discussion than just 3 vs. 4 years. He needs a plan to maximize his chances at the right program given his interests, and he needs a lot of faculty support in order to get there. Whether he does a 3 year BS or a 4 year BS, or a 4 year BS/Master’s, he cannot get into a top program without his department behind him.
So ignore the random internet lunatic (including me) and make sure he’s listening to the experts.
I agree with and support what Pentaprism says.
Apply to grad schools now and see what happens. If accepted to a good one, move on. If not, apply again next year. Master’s degree is not necessary nor counts much. Try to get a research paper published.
I’m positive the support is there. What I am pretty sure is not there is a formal discussion and real plans. It sounds like he is putting the cart before the horse and needs to formalize his plans in order to make a decision, not vice versa which is the way he was approaching it.
I agree that input from his professors is probably the most important thing.
Another thing to consider: Does he have a good idea what grad schools he’ll want to apply to and/or what professor he may want to work with at those schools? If not, will a 4th year doing research give him a chance to attend some conferences in his field where he can talk to people about good professors to work with etc?
By “particle or nuclear physics” does he mean working on LHC data? (There are so many grad students involved in the LHC, it’s easy to get lost.) Or, theory? Or, some aspect for which he’d want to go somewhere with good access to specific high-energy projects?
How many publications/proceedings papers does he have his name on so far?
If he wants to graduate early and it would save your family money, it’s a shame to have to turn down the opportunity.
But if he currently has insufficient research experience to qualify for a good PhD program, that could be a problem.
In some fields, it is possible for a person with a bachelor’s degree to get a research assistant job or post-baccalaureate fellowship, either of which gives them additional research experience before going to graduate school. I know that such opportunities exist in some of the life sciences, for example. (I’m a contractor for NIH, and NIH has lots of post-bacs.) Are opportunities of this type available in your son’s field?
I have a friend who walked into his adviser’s office in September of Senior year to discuss PhD programs and was shocked to hear that of the 5-6 students that the faculty had discussed supporting (and pushing and prodding) into doctorate programs, his name was not on the list.
The advice you are getting here to apply now- and see what happens- is terrible advice. Your son wants a fully funded program in his area of interest working with some of the best minds in his field, not some random “welcome aboard” letter from a university happy to have his tuition dollars to cover part of his expenses (i.e. a stipend which does not cover all of his costs).
Your son will apply to the programs the faculty of his university thinks he should apply to, and will benefit from them picking up the phone or dashing off an email to a colleague to say, “This is one of the top students in our department”. Throwing in a random application now- to “test the waters” is not the way to get funded, nor the way to get faculty support for his candidacy. And is most definitely NOT the way to maintain his reputation at his current university- with faculty, dean’s, and current grad students, as “someone to watch and someone we are proud to mentor”.