First, the example I provided wasn’t 30 years ago.
Second, while not nearly as common in the sciences, the length of time to complete a PhD in several fields is such a given PhD student is likely to have exposure to much more recent PhD admissions policies.* Especially if it’s a small department and/or he/she was involved in the admissions committee as is the case with some departments.
Average there tended to be 5-6 years when I was finishing up undergrad in the late '90s. However, some science fields are starting to creep up into the 7-8+ year range more recently according to friends who are enrolled or just finished their PhDs.
** In a Berkeley course bulletin I looked through a few years back, their stated AVERAGE total time to complete a PhD in one of my academic fields of interest was 12 years from start to finish. In another, the average was only slightly better…at 9-10 years. When I was taking a summer class at H, the house master of my summer dorm was a Chinese literature PhD student who was entering his 10th year as a registered PhD student there. A TF for one course I had was also entering his 10th year of residence as an officially registered PhD student in a STEM field. I also personally know a few people who are still ABDs and officially enrolled as PhD students in a couple of elite Us after being in their respective PhD programs for 20 and in one case…30+ years. Admittedly, the 20 and 30 year cases are extreme aberrations.
IMO, only a financial idiot or someone whose financial situation is such that it’s no longer a consideration would do such a thing.
Here is one university’s normative time to PhD completion (as well as advancement to candidacy and MA/MS completion) for various majors: http://graduate.ucr.edu/normativetime2.html
The ones cited for my fields of academic interest are far below the overall averages I’ve came across.
In fact, one of them would be considered the extreme low end similar to Princeton’s though a large part of that is departments there either either cut off funding* or will go so far as kick out anyone who doesn’t finish within 5 years.**.
Met one Princeton STEM PhD graduate and current STEM Prof who recounted he spent the last 4.5 years of his time there secretly working as a busboy at a nearby fancy country club to support himself while living with the fear that if word got back to his adviser/department, he'll be kicked out for violating their policy of not working outside jobs while continuing his residence as a PhD student.
** An older college classmate’s parent had this happen to him in another department and ended up having to finish his PhD at another university.
“If he completed the masters degree, would it negatively affect his applying to PhD programs?”
Absolutely NOT.
Your DD should follow JHS’s sage advise.
DS also was a full merit scholarship student
He is at Caltech working toward his PhD. He has said that he DID have to work a lot HARDER than others during his first year because he did not come with a MS.
But he was already published in a noted scientific journal, [with his co-author/ mentor] before he graduated.
Have your DD to do AS MUCH RESEARCH as possible during her UG years. That, + great LOR’s, top GRE scores and GPA in her areas of concentration will help prepare her for top PhD programs.
She should take advantage of everything her year UG scholarship offers- and that means not being in a rush to graduate. She should milk her [free] UG years for all their worth.
Physics professor here. I would caution OP’s son against graduating in three years if he wants to attend a top physics graduate program. Good grades and good GRE scores are necessary to be a competitive candidate at the most selective PhD programs, but research experience and exposure to advanced classes can be far more important. OP mentions that the son has engaged in research since 2nd semester of freshman year and has worked during the summer on a research project. That is a great start. Now he needs to stick with it during his third and fourth undergraduate year. Does his college offer the opportunity to engage in a senior thesis project? If so, I would recommend that he write a senior thesis.
A PhD in physics is a research degree. Graduate programs look for students who have had significant experience in research as undergraduates. The best way to show that you have interest and talent for research is by doing research.
A masters degree at the end of his four years at his present institution should not hinder getting into a competitive PhD program. The important thing is to make the most of the four undergraduate years and become the strongest candidate he can be.
I concur with the advice that the OP’s son to talk to his professors to see what they think. While I generally recommend against rushing to graduate early, there might be special circumstances that we do not know about.
S1’s best buddy from HS is in a PhD STEM program at a top school and he is the only one in his cohort who came straight from UG.
My niece had enough credits to graduate after her soph year of college (she had lots of APs and her university is generous with credit). She decided to stay and take advantage of four years of a nearly full ride and will graduate with four majors!
S1’s friends who took the full ride at our local flagship walked in with a lot of credit/placement and they universally stayed all four years to take grad courses, an additional major, research, etc. They got into tippy top grad schools. These were kids who in many cases turned down Ivies/MIT for the full ride, knowing that STEM at the flagship was extremely good.
Agree with JHS – milk the UG for all it’s worth. Let those professors and advisory committee know your S well enough to sing his praises to grad programs.
Terrific!
I think the best part is that he had this exercise of thinking things through (not just putting cart ahead of horse.)
He sounds very mature.
When I said apply now (junior year), I did not mean “test the waters.” After putting his best effort forward putting toghether the application, if he gets invited from CalTech or Harvard, why not go? (Of course, fully-funded. no one should go into a PhD program unfunded, even English. And it’s unlikely OP kid will get an unfunded invitation.)
I do agree that starting the graduate school as best prepared as one can get is in the end better for staying in and completing the program.
It is a marathon requiring slogging through many long dark passages.
Getting in is not the matter. Coming out alive is.
However, OP kid sounds to me as qualified and prepared applying as a junior or a senior.
Grad programs are mostly small accepting ~20 students. Acceptance depends on that year’s student pool and chances. Even once at the grad school, there is a chance that the desired research group has taken 2-3 students from previous year’s cohort and will not take another student your year due to a sabbatical leave, etc.
Side note. 1. When I applied, in stone age, I took both Physics and Math GRE test as well as regular GRE. It was not uncommon to do so from my school (especially if one was considering theoretical physics) if double major, etc. I did not double major but had more than enough math credits for it.
2. Top physics programs do not mind young prodigies at all. They mind old students starting late 20s. Many do not get tenured positions for decades after starting PhD. Young assisstant faculty do not want students older than they are. Not only awkward, but also you get to compete for the same tenured position with your advisor who is younger than you are. (You choose an older professor then you take 10 years to complete and accident/stuff happen and you end up with a young faculty as your new advisor… )
I have seen several assisstant professors at top schools who completed PhD at 23-26.
Some postdoctoral researchers I hired were 24 (UK system. 3 yr BS 3 yr PhD Cambridge) and 25 (3 yr HS, 3 BS, 5 yr PhD) years old.
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