How would you respond to this statement about college admissions

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<p>There is no doubt that IQ and SAT scores are correlated, but that wasn’t the assertion. The question is whether a relatively small difference in SAT score is correlated with intelligence. Remember, a person can take a two-week prep class and increase his or her SAT score by 300 points. That person didn’t become more intelligent during those two weeks, only better at test-taking.</p>

<p>Even forgetting test prep, there are plenty of 2400-SAT idiots and plenty of 2100-SAT geniuses. But that depends on the definitions of idiot and genius, doesn’t it? And this is exactly the point.</p>

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<p>Some interesting life experiences and passionate EC’s are also out of one’s control, practically speaking. The kid from the 'hood or the kid from the potato farm in Idaho generally doesn’t GET to travel to Guatemala to save the rainforest, do an internship on Wall Street in high school, or become a nationally ranked player in lacrosse.</p>

<p>I think the bigger frustration is that you’re all trying to predict what H wants, and * H (and similar schools) don’t necessarily know what they want until they see it * – ah, here’s the kid who wrote that essay on fireflies, boy can he turn a phrase, I want that kid here. There’s a kid who overcame some incredible life disadvantages, he sounds like a keeper. This kid undoubtedly came from a privileged background but look what he did with his advantages, wow, I want him. There’s a kid from an average high school who comes across as an incredible leader in traditional school activities, I want her. You all keep pretending that it’s some formula and that they’re slotting kids in, so 2350 > 2300 > 2250, and GPA 3.9 > 3.88 > 3.86 so therefore the white kid should pout when the black kid with lower scores gets in because he was “more qualified.” What part of “there isn’t a formula” isn’t obvious?</p>

<p>Interesting piece on AA in today’s NYT by Ross Douthat, one of their resident conservatives. (sorry, I can’t do a paste for some reason.)</p>

<p>You guys are arguing yourselves into a corner.</p>

<p>Let’s take math. Suppose you have a class of 50 students taking an advanced math course all with 800 SAT math score; and another class of 50 students all with 700 score taking the same course. Do you really expect the same outcomes?</p>

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<p>I think it is clear that I am talking about intelligence related to academic/ intellectual performance. Can you suggest a measure of intelligence that you think would be uncorrelated to SAT scores?</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, you’re twisting my words.</p>

<p>I’m all for the “kid from an average high school who comes across as an incredible leader in traditional school activities” and all your other examples. Those kids shine because of what THEY have done with their life. What bothers me if say, a girl who’s done great things is less likely to get in than a boy who’s done equally great things, just because there are more girls doing great things and the school wants to stay “balanced”. Fair for the school, unfair for the rejected girls.</p>

<p>And I wouldn’t be fooled by some kid’s trip to “save the rainforest” as one of their great attributes. Ad coms won’t be fooled either.</p>

<p>Math may be correlated with mathematical/logical ability, but the Critical Reading section and even the Essay may not be. Doing well on the critical reading is half about memorizing a list of words and their definitions, do you argue that having the motivation to memorize all those words is directly correlated to intelligence? It’s simply about dedication to doing well on a test. Same for the essays, they grade in a certain way and half of the test is figuring out what THEY want you to say, not necessarily about answering the prompt. A large portion of the SAT is studying what they want you to do, not necessarily about your knowledge of the subject matter.</p>

<p>Also, there are different kinds of intelligence, even related to academic performance. Some people do well on the math section and poorly on critical reading, while others do well on critical reading and poorly on math, correct? If they both end up getting the same overall score however, do you declare them equally intelligent? Will they both do equally well in school and end up having equally successful careers? There are many other factors that determine whether a person will do well academically, notable environment and motivation.</p>

<p>Last, correlation is a measure between -1 and 1, indicating how strong the correlation is. Are you suggesting a correlation close to 1 or a weak correlation around 0.3 perhaps, because weak correlation is certainly possible, it just doesn’t explain anything.</p>

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<p>From the NYT article woody mentioned. </p>

<p>I think everyone agrees that the “African American and Indian took my kid’s spot at H” is silly, but Pizzagirl’s characterization of a practically random admissions process where decisions are made by “feeling” a certain kind of candidate on a particular day does not ring true, when there are certain trends that are clear. The proportion of full pay to FA students seems to be constant year to year at many schools, as does the proportion of URMs – can’t be that random… The article suggests that the kid cited in this thread from the Idaho potato farm is at a real DISADVANTAGE, rather than having a hook similar to AA. Interesteddad probably summed it up most succinctly - “it is what it is”, but to many the way “diversity” is defined and achieved is puzzling.</p>

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But that isn’t the only thing that goes on at college, sorghum. What about the music major, or the art major, or the nursing major? Is the only indicator of their abilities and aptitude their SAT score? Are you going to fill those majors with the people with the 2400’s with no regard for anything else? What about the individuals who are super-geeks in one area and not particularly so in anything else? </p>

<p>And having a 2400 doesn’t somehow make you a well rounded person, or a good person, or one who can add interesting perspectives to a class discussion.</p>

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<p>Here the NYT link:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This is a slightly earlier article by Russell Nieli that Douthat links to:</p>

<p>[How</a> Diversity Punishes Asians, Poor Whites and Lots of Others](<a href=“http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html]How”>http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html)</p>

<p>Perhaps the point of the articles (and the book that they review) that will generate the most heat is that poor whites have a big disadvantage being admitted to selective colleges compared to URMs.</p>

<p>To the OP, the comment made to you was rude and defensive. Though I find it rather odd, many parents take their children’s college rejections personally, as if it somehow reflects a shortcoming in them. Weird, but I’ve seen it over and over. </p>

<p>As to the race-based admissions debate, well it’s just an ugly business so it will always engender ugly responses from people. Even as I read this thread – and see references to blacks being “URM” and Asians being “ORM” – I just cringe. I can’t believe that in 2010 we are sitting around counting people off by skin color, looking for the “proper mix,” but that is indeed what we are doing, and it isn’t pretty. “Oh, too many of those! Oops, not enough of those!” It is just an offensive, pernicious practice no matter how well-intentioned it is. By using race as a hook or a hindrance, colleges (and employers, etc.) are operating under a deeply fallacious notion that skin color indicates a monolithic set of desirable (or undesirable) characteristics of diversity, depending upon the selected race. It seeks to locate a specific diversity, which would be a laughable oxymoron if it weren’t so tragically anti-intellectual and racist. </p>

<p>The aims of diversity can be achieved in a multitude of far less offensive ways, and I do think we are heading in that direction. I believe we’ll look back on these days of race-preference college admissions and say, “My God, what were we thinking?!”</p>

<p>It doesn’t look like that new research is talking about Harvard and similar schools not accepting poor whites.</p>

<p>It seems the schools described are the ones with limited need-based financial aid that choose to give such aid to URMs, not poor whites. It doesn’t surprise me that they would choose to use their limited financial aid to support racial diversity not socioeconomic class diversity. Racial diversity is more obvious. Class diversity is not, and its impact is harder to track. Poor kids don’t band together and start clubs relating to being poor. Poor kids tend to try to blend in, and from what I saw as a professor and as a student, tend not to talk about their experiences living in poverty. </p>

<p>From the Russell Nieli article:</p>

<p>""The enormous disadvantage incurred by lower-class whites in comparison to non-whites and wealthier whites is partially explained by Espenshade and Radford as a result of the fact that, except for the very wealthiest institutions like Harvard and Princeton, private colleges and universities are reluctant to admit students who cannot afford their high tuitions. And since they have a limited amount of money to give out for scholarship aid, they reserve this money to lure those who can be counted in their enrollment statistics as diversity-enhancing “racial minorities.” </p>

<p>I found this particularly intriguing in the article. I actually suspect that for colleges like Harvard and Yale, the opposite would be true. I can’t prove this, but I do remember the Iowa farmgirl in the class behind me at Harvard who sneaked her pet baby pig into the dorm and kept it in her dresser drawer until her roommate complained.</p>

<p>“But what Espenshade and Radford found in regard to what they call “career-oriented activities” was truly shocking even to this hardened veteran of the campus ideological and cultural wars. Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student’s chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. “Being an officer or winning awards” for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, “has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions.” Excelling in these activities “is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission.””</p>

<p>[How</a> Diversity Punishes Asians, Poor Whites and Lots of Others](<a href=“http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html]How”>http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html)</p>

<p>"I can’t believe that in 2010 we are sitting around counting people off by skin color, looking for the “proper mix,” but that is indeed what we are doing, and it isn’t pretty. “Oh, too many of those! Oops, not enough of those!” "</p>

<p>From what I’ve seen of the world, college and the military are the places in which people are most likely to have close interaction as equals – including socially-- with people of other races. Consequently, I like the idea of colleges attempting to be racially diverse and diverse in other ways. Exposure to such diversity is an important part of students’ college education.</p>

<p>Even with some colleges going out of their way to increase racial diversity, most colleges’ proportion of URMs doesn’t reflect the presence of URMs in U.S. society. That’s unfortunate because due to the population growth rates in the U.S., after college, most college students will live in a country that is even more diverse than it is now.</p>

<p>My sister graduated from Wellesley College in 1974 and then Tufts medical school…A really bright (NMS) kid from a poor, large, Irish Catholic family in ME…a first generation college kid, to boot. Her husband is the oldest of two, from an upper middle-class, white family in WI who also happened to achieve a perect score on his SAT’s. He got his undergrad from Harvard, and then went on to Univ of WI medical school. They met at Johns Hopkins Univ Hospital during redidency, I believe. </p>

<p>Fast forward about 25 years. </p>

<p>Their middle child was taking college-level math classes in 7th grade, because his HS couldn’t keep him challenged. He is a well rounded kid with athletics, the arts, academic/leadership EC’s, extremely articulate - the complete package. When the time comes, he also socres perfect 2400 on SAT’s and decides to apply to Harvard as his first choice, like Dad.</p>

<p>When the lottery was held, he was left holding the short end of the stick - in spite of all his kudos, accolades and legacy points. He didn’t get in. Was he disappointed and were his parents dumbfounded? Of course. But he was fortunate to have had some other great choices on his short list, and wound up at BC, where he graduated summa cum laude with an English major (math was too easy). He scored in the 99th percentile on the LSAT and just finished up his first year at Duke Law… which was very $$ happy $$ to have him. </p>

<p>Bottom line - it’s a crapshoot…out of one’s hands. In the end, truly capable and driven students will come out okay…provided they diversify their choices in schools and always look forward, rather than back.</p>

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Sure, poor kids are trying to escape from poverty. Harder to escape from one’s ethnicity. And some of those experiences are too painful to talk about, especially in a setting where it would be perceived that no-one else could possible relate to them.</p>

<p>This is such an interesting conversation. I work for a Top 20 university; my D applied this past year. We’re white. She’s a NMF, SATs in the 75th % of the school accepted student range, decent ECs, strong gpa & schedule; she attended two summer programs here for gifted kids. I told her back in September not to be surprised if she was waitlisted since the acceptance rate was around 20% (and it actually dropped to 16% this year.) </p>

<p>One of the things that has happened here is that the school has started recruiting underrepresented populations, and they’ve also dropped any loans from their FA packages. I think that’s a wonderful thing. D ended up getting waitlisted; she declined the spot & is happily attending another university. I never once thought about “who” took “her” spot here. Especially the (insert laundry list of sorting criteria here) type of the person who took “her” spot. Did she have the stats to get in the pool to apply? Yes. But with a 16% admit rate, lots of people with stats above her didn’t get in, and yes, there are people with lesser stats who will be moving in the dorms. If she had gotten in, people may have assumed that it was because I worked here, or because she’d attended some summer programs, but I’ve always heard that’s not really a tipping point. Interestingly, only 2 people from her school who applied were admitted (and probably about 10 applied) but both of those chose to go elsewhere. </p>

<p>I think people who tend to be jealous, & who haven’t prepared their kids (and themselves) for the fact that not everyone is going to see how absolutely precious & brilliant they are, are going to choose to see unfairness in the process as opposed to accepting the randomness. I sure hope that mom hasn’t shared that statement with her child NSM.</p>

<p>Poor anyones have a big advantage being admitted to selective colleges. Many of the URMs I know who are in selective colleges are not from families that are poor. One of my oldest friends is married to a man of African American descent. Their kids have all gone with one going to ivies and other top schools and they have paid full freight. Those kids have also gone to top private high schools and were excellent students. That they are also URM is probably a strong tip factor in their acceptances to some of these programs, but they are not outliers statistically at all. It is entirely possible that if they were not URMs, they would have been in a pool of very like candidates and it would have been a lottery pick to get the acceptance, but that extra factor made them a hand picked accept instead. But there is no question that each and every one of them was in the consideration pool for these schools without any URM criteria in the picture. </p>

<p>No one in that particular pool has a spot in the college. That is the pool that is scrutinized for what additional qualities that the student can bring to the school. This is where someone’s demonstrated interest in Arabic or the Classics can make the difference. That if the person has had a truly challenging life that s/he has handled well comes into play. That the applicant is from an unusual country or from out in the country in the US or from South Dakota working as a cowhand on the family ranch. When schools look at any criteria that is not straight out test scores, grades, difficult courses, it can be said that they are “punishing” or putting to disadvantage those whose main attributes are those factors. URM is only one of many factors that can make an applicant stand out, once there is a pool of like applicants.</p>

<p>Though any and all tips and hooks are disparaged and panned by those who don’t have them, NSM is correct in saying that the URM status is the one that really burns folks the most. Interesting, in that in the most select schools the % of kids who get in with that as a factor (we are excluding those who would have gotten in without URM status, those who are the one read admits that comprise about a third of the pool), is very, very small compared to other things like legacy (huge), athletics, celebrity, development, relationship, first gen american, challenging life, some of which does bring diversity to the school and some that actually hurts the diversity.</p>

<p>While on the NYTimes site looking for the Douthat article, stumbled across this piece in The Choice about lagging African American and Latino admissions at UCLA (the US college that receives the most apps, even more than Harvard and Yale):</p>

<p>[In</a> California, a University Tries to Enroll Students that Reflect a Diverse State - The Choice Blog - NYTimes.com](<a href=“In California, a University Tries to Enroll Students that Reflect a Diverse State - The New York Times”>In California, a University Tries to Enroll Students that Reflect a Diverse State - The New York Times)</p>

<p>Please scroll to comment 2!</p>

<p>In fact, the article + the few comments posted to date reflect much of what has been discussed here.</p>

<p>NSM, thanks for leading this provocative discussion.</p>

<p>The comments made to the OP were undoubtedly crass, likely intentionally so, and at the core were simplistic and probably made for emotional reasons rather than because of thoughtful analysis. They didn’t pick a black kid for her kid’s slot. They picked a class that didn’t include the kid and gave preferences to a bunch of different groups when deciding what the right class looked like.</p>

<p>Why does this thread strike me as funny? The topic is serious, but having the discussion without looking more directly at what universities appear to be trying to achieve with their admissions policies misses the point. Some people seem to assume that they are trying to get kids who are strongest academically, which means to them usually, GPAs and board scores plus academic honors. Even there, are kids who are strongest academically supposed to be the kids who will win Nobel Prizes or equivalent or the kids who will have the highest college GPAs? It is likely that not all Nobel Prize winners were whizzes at English literature and that we could find well-rounded students who could get higher college GPAs. Like universities’ holistic admissions policies, others argue that the schools objective is to get the most interesting class and not the kids with the highest GPA/SAT combinations and that GPA/SAT on their own do not equate to the most meritorious applicants.</p>

<p>So, let’s back up. Private universities are institutions that live in political and economic contexts. They exist first and foremost to meet their own institutional needs. In the old days, they switched from using grades and board scores to holistic admissions policies (and limited class sizes) because both their donors and their professors were largely aristocratic WASPS and these constituencies were upset that the numbers-based admissions policies was leading to an uncomfortably high proportion of Jewish admits (indeed, if I remember correctly, internal documents cited by Jerome Karabel in The Chosen stated that the class would be all Jewish if they just used grades and board scores). When the 15% quota became politically embarrassing, they devised a new strategy: a holistic admissions policy. In addition to grades and board scores, they used geographic distribution, athletics, extra-curriculars, and other intangibles to limit the proportion of Jews. (They also asked for pictures to suss out possible Jews and had staff looking for Jewish names.) The holistic admissions policies was designed to respond to their constituencies and was used to discriminate and to ensure that their donors and professors (who were anti-Semitic) were not upset. One could argue that the outstanding academic performance of Jews caused HYP to evaluate their true priorities and to recognize that they really cared about diversity (geographic, athletic v. non-athletic, leadership in ECs, etc.) and instituted a holistic policy to achieve their desired diversity, but I think that would be charitable.</p>

<p>In today’s environment, the political winds are blowing another way. Donors still want their kids to get in, so we still have legacy admits. Alums still want to perform well in sports, so we have athletic admits (though, for another thread, query as to why this is valuable to elite institutions or as desirable social policy). Our polity has for 60 or 70 years attempted to respond to the disgrace of slavery and racism in the US, which led with much struggle to affirmative action for black Americans. As a society, we have over time extended a lot of the benefits of AA to other political groups that have mobilized effectively and gotten status as a politically protected group (in large part because of a legacy of discrimination and in some cases like Native Americans a disgraceful history of mistreatment as well but in some cases in part because of growing political leverage). That has flowed into college admissions policies as well. Professors’ kids still get special treatment at some (all?) schools. In that brief period in which university endowments were growing at a magical pace, politicians among others started asking why schools with $40+ billion endowments needed to be treated like charities for tax purposes. Lo and behold, Princeton and Harvard started financial aid policies that meet the estimated need of all kids. These institutions live in a social/political/economic context and need to respond to that context. That doesn’t mean that the holistic policy they adopt to respond is somehow virtuous – it can be vilely discriminatory or socially beneficial.</p>

<p>There is another aspect of the holistic policy that no one has directly addressed. I think elite schools want to produce graduates who occupy elite roles in society, whether partners in Goldman (not as elite this week, but they’ll be back), elected officials or appointed ones, royalty in other countries, scientists who make great contributions, intellectuals who change how people think, best-selling authors, social entrepreneurs and leaders, and hedge fund managers and scions of wealthy families who can give lots of dough to the school. Look at who they claim as alums in their publications. Who do they interview? Who do they write about? It is not the VP at Lower Sasquatch National Bank or the social worker in Cleveland. They are looking to admit those people who are capable of being lauded alumni in their alumni magazine thirty years later. That is why, per NorthStarMom’s comment, they might not take another very smart but not brilliant mathgeek over someone with lesser stats. Stats are only part of what helps predict people who’ll rise to the esteemed category.</p>

<p>The holistic policy inherently advantages some groups vis-a-vis others. I don’t think there is any disagreement about that. Legacy tips help the sons and daughters of alums and their chances of admission are increased relative to the chances of admission of the identical kid whose parents did not go to Esteemed University. The same is true for kids classified as URMs or kids who are recruited athletes. Their chances of admission because of this special characteristic are higher than they would be if they did not have that characteristic. In the admissions flavor of the decade, elite schools want kids who demonstrate passion for something. Picking people who have the determination to go beyond good grades to accomplish something may be a predictor of what such folks will do in the future. </p>

<p>The objective function of the university has a number of attributes and thus it is misleading to conclude that whenever they pick a kid with lower grades/scores over a kid with higher grades/scores that they have picked a kid who is less qualified (less qualified for what). </p>

<p>It is also simplistic to assume that because the school admitted kids that all of them are of the same academic caliber. I know a guy who has donated a chair to his alma mater, an elite university, and is likely a continuing donor. His oldest kid was wild partier in middle and high school and was admitted to a special program in which the kid agreed to take a gap year and was guaranteed admission thereafter. The kid was an indifferent student at best and I think her main qualification was Daddy’s donations. I know several other kids admitted under the same program who were just fine as students there and would be of an appropriate academic caliber (though none will likely be academic superstars), but I think not all are. The tipped groups may well not perform as well in courses. I think CC posters have linked to articles showing that athletes don’t perform as well in class. I have been told by a reliable and apolitical professor at an elite law school that has blind grading that minority law students had a much lower graduation rate than non-minority students, though I have never seen any data to confirm or disconfirm. </p>

<p>So, I think the real question here is about what the goals of these private institutions should be and whether we are comfortable with their goals as reflected in their admissions policies…</p>

<p>As some other posters have noted, the comment by the mother that started this post probably can be classified as racist because she focused solely on the racial tip and not others. She didn’t say, "My kid’s spot was given to the alumnus’s son or the celebrity’s daughter or the lacrosse player from that Baltimore prep school,” but instead focused on race. NSM, what percentage of Harvard’s class is African-American and what percentage legacy?</p>

<p>Two final thoughts. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>You regularly hear university presidents boast about their policy of increasing diversity. They are generally politically correct to a fare-the-well. I’ve heard this speech at several schools, one attended by my son where the president proudly pronounced their accomplishment of reducing white Americans to less than half of the class (49.8% I believe). They don’t boast about boosting the legacy admit or athlete admit pile, so the mom in question might have some justification in focusing on URM tips instead of others. </p></li>
<li><p>What kind of diversity we value is politically defined and whether it is desirable or not is also a political question. In US liberal circles, we reflexively think of things in terms of race because of our history. In Canada, while they also talk about diversity at schools, racial diversity does not seem to be high up on their list of considerations. The categories they use (and the affirmative action they allow) reflects attendance by Francophones (their word for French-speaking Canadians) and First Nations and other aboriginals (the other groups, including Metis and Inuits, sometimes seem to have a lesser claim but as the spouse of a Canadian, I haven’t fully absorbed all the ways of my Canadian brethren). I have seen Canadian Medical schools that have explicitly state on their website lower GPA minimums First Nations than for other applicants, for example. vig180 gave a link to a review of Espenshade and Radford’s book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal. The reviewer Russell Nieli, who seems to be of the conservative persuasion, notes that while university diversity policies advantage non-whites, they do not appear to also advantage poor kids generally. In fact, Espenshade and Radford say (I haven’t read the book and am hoping the reviewer is reliable) that socio-economic status is positively correlated with chances of admission for URMs but negatively correlated for whites. Poor whites are not considered a positive from the Gods of Diversity Definition. “Poor whites are apparently given little weight as enhancers of campus diversity, while poor non-whites count twice in the diversity tally, once as racial minorities and a second time as socio-economically deprived. Private institutions, Espenshade and Radford suggest, ‘intentionally save their scarce financial aid dollars for students who will help them look good on their numbers of minority students.’” As NSM points out, this probably doesn’t apply to the schools that meet financial need. But the schools certainly appear not to want white kids who are officers in Junior ROTC or Future Farmers of America or have military experience. An argument made repeatedly on this board is that we should value diversity in part because elite students should be comfortable working with all types of different people. I’ve been unpersuaded by that justification for diversity, but if it is valid, it should be equally valid for the poor white kids with military experience who seems to be underrepresented at elite schools.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Doesn’t bother me. If a given LAC historically skewed more female than male, and there’s a relative shortage of boys there, I have no problem whatsoever with them putting a finger on the scale of the qualified boys. I think getting to a 50 / 50 ish balance of male / female is probably a desirable thing. Then again, I’m a mother of a boy and a girl :-). But really? If my S happened to want to go to an LAC where there’s a boy shortage? More power to him, and I see no reason why he shouldn’t want to play that card. My philosophy is, play any card that’s handed to you.</p>

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Apparently this is not the case. According to the NYT article, poor whites do not have an advantage, in fact, they are at a disadvantage.</p>