If committed to the humanities, HYP are better. Don’t fall for the “fewer students mean more attention” line. The chance you feel like an outsider isn’t insignificant. Why risk four years of that?
@bicoastalusa that is not true. all the rankings, research funding etc do not support that claim. And how do you know you would feel out of place? The fewer students more attention is very much a real thing given that Stanfords humanities departments are tippy top notch ranked always just as high or higher than HYP.
Did you see my use of the words chance and risk? I didn’t claim everyone will feel like an outsider, just that students might with nearly 30% of undergraduates majoring in engineering and numbers increasing every year. People don’t learn in a vacuum and this is especially true in the humanities where there is active exchange of ideas in small classes as opposed to large lectures. I think going to HYP for humanities majors makes more sense. Why be at a school with a techy culture? I would argue the reverse for someone wanting to study engineering. Why go to Yale or Princeton where science and engineering students are not as well integrated?
@bicoastalusa While I agree that no one learns in a vacuum, there is a big enough humanities community at Stanford that students would not be learning in a vacuum. Some find it a nice balance pursuing humanities at a school that also a strong pre-professional element and a more dynamic vibe/culture. But that depends on the person. Regarding your point about not pursuing engineering at HYP, I think the main argument would be because HYP do not have tippy top engineering departments. But the same cannot be said about Stanford humanities.
What is toppy top? US News ranks Stanford humanities at 7. MIT humanities is ranked 9. I would never recommend a humanities major to attend MIT not because of the quality of education but because he or she would be better off at HYP.
The US News ranking you refer to is the WORLD ranking which ranks Harvard as number 2, Yale as number 4 and Stanford as number 7. These are world-wide ranking of the above 3 US colleges. I don’t know whether the ranking refers to undergrad or grad schools; maybe undergrad or maybe both – I don’t know. Oxford is ranked number 1 over Harvard while Cambridge is ranked number 3 over Yale. Therefore, Stanford is ranked number 3 among US colleges in Arts and Humanities; I would call that “tippy top”. According to the US News ranking, if you want to go to the number 1 Arts & Humanities college, you should go to Oxford, not Harvard. Any time a college is ranked top 3 in most STEM fields and top 3 in Arts & Humanities (plus a great athletic program), that’s doing something right.
Actually, looking at all the areas of studies, it looks to me as if Harvard, Stanford & MIT rank HIGHEST on the average in all areas of studies listed IN THE WORLD. That’s no small accomplishment. And it also seems to me that Stanford ranks pretty high on almost every field of studies. This is in addition to having a great athletic program.
Well, if MIT is ranked as 3rd highest among US colleges in Arts & Humanities, why not consider going there over Princeton which is ranked lower? Not that I trust US News ranking. MIT’s Humanities program is really coming up also, it seems.
Why not go to MIT for humanities? Precisely for the reason I recommended students go to HYP for humanities instead of Stanford. If the techie culture and opinions that there is a RISK of feeling like an outsider don’t dissuade students, that’s fine. In my opinion, Stanford just isn’t the best choice if also accepted at HYP.
So, if someone wants to attend HYP to study a STEM area, you would apply the same rationale and tell them to go to SM instead? Just trying to understand the rationale.
@websensation, read post #22. Yes, that is exactly what the poster said.
I also recommend the blog CathinCollege, specifically the post “W is for Wisdom.” She’s very positive about Stanford but also very honest. She had a difficult period there and some of it is directly attributable to being a humanities student at a school where tech is paramount and where she felt that she did not measure up due to that hierarchy. She briefly switched her major to symbolic systems (the “it” major at Stanford) and realized she could not and did not want to do that. After publicly acknowledging her feelings, she wrote that she received an outpouring of support from others who told her that they’d felt the same way and from professors who told her they were well aware of the issue.
She’s found her place and wrote earlier this year, "Now, I feel more confident in choosing classes that interest me regardless of their perceived level of “prestige.” Sometimes I feel like I’m one of the only people I know who says “I am excited for my classes next quarter.”
@3girls3cats Yes, #22 says that, so I now clearly understand his rationale. However, Stanford is big enough and has a variety of strong programs across the board so that you can find your own community. Therefore, it is not CalTech or to a lesser degree MIT where tech students make up probably a lot bigger percentages. I also know some students who chose Stanford over HYP specifically due to their SLE Program focusing on classic Humanities courses.
Every college is bound to be more tech heavy or Humanities heavy; it’s hard to keep it evenly balanced.
While I do not deny some Stanford Humanities students feel the same as the blogger felt, my kid specifically embraces the fact that there are fewer Humanities students than STEM students at Stanford. Besides, Stanford has really strong programs in the areas my kid wants to study. In fact, our official tour guide who was involved in theater at Stanford took the symbolic systems class and liked it. I think today’s world emphasizes the tech area more, and colleges reflect that.
Following the poster’s rationale, all STEM interested students should go to SM, while all Humanities leaning students should go to HYP. I disagree with that for the following reasons:
- Stanford has strong programs across the board even if there are more students studying in STEM area.
- I don't think the number of students studying STEM fields overwhelmingly outweigh the students studying in non-STEM areas.
- Stanford seems to be focused in developing good programs for Humanities fields.
- Some Humanities students like to be in a college where their area is not the dominant area so that they can get exposed to what is happening in other areas.
- Individual fit is more important than the number of students in tech vs. Humanities.
The CiC blog entry (W is for Wisdom) is a cautionary tale that every student in any university should read. However, I disagree with some of her conclusions. Remember that students enter Stanford as undeclared majors. Students are encouraged to explore classes, and hold off declaring a major until they have found what they love. Even then, they may encounter courses that test their fit, desire, and commitment. It seems that only when confronted with such a class (in her case CS 103) she reevaluated her desires – that’s good. However, supporting her decision by stating, “The academic culture at Stanford University is hostile to the humanities” seems a step too far. After her choice to change majors she feels “invalidated” when she sees students writing code at at Tresidder, or by students bonding on how challenging their STEM classes are. Is the passion of these STEM students a negative? I don’t think so. It would be interesting if CiC posted a follow up on the humanities at Stanford. Does she still feel invalidated, or has she found the students that are discussing and debating topics more aligned with her passion at a different table at Tresidder? BTW, I’m not sure that CS 103 is really considered a “prestigious” course.
Here’s the thing @websensation. Stanford is an excellent school. It was one my daughter considered very seriously when she was looking at schools. I am not here to disparage the school or weigh in on its faults or its strengths as it applies to anyone. What I would like is an honest discussion of what the school really is. There’s no need to be defensive when talking about a school like Stanford!
Unfortunately, there seems to be a tendency among some posters to become nearly hysterical when Stanford is mentioned in any way that varies from the script that it’s the best, most selective school in the U.S. and every aspect of it is superior to any other school in the world. OK, that’s slight hyperbole but not much. Other posters have commented on it. It’s showed up on the most annoying threads discussions. You do not hear the same sort of tone in the Harvard and Yale forums and I can’t think of the last time an MIT thread appeared at the top of my latest posts feed with this sort of charged feel.
The fact is that there is no one perfect school. There are valid reasons to choose Stanford and there are valid reasons to choose a host of other schools. There * is * a tech heavy emphasis at Stanford and there * are * more students studying CS and engineering than there are those studying humanities. It’s been written about and worried over by professors at the school and it is what it is. For some that is a negative. For some it’s a positive. For still others it’s neutral.
As I read over your points, I can’t help reframing them to show some balance.
- HYP also have strong programs across the board. Some are stronger than what S offers, some are weaker. They are, however, strong.
- I've discussed that above.
- H and Y are actively developing strong programs in CS and engineering. H has MIT down the street and students do take classes there. Both H and Y offer other existing STEM programs that are excellent.
- That's an individual decision. Some humanities students prefer to be in a school where the departments have long and established traditions and a larger community. To each his own. Note too that the reverse is also true. Some students choose the east coast schools because they want to study CS in a smaller community and also want to pursue liberal arts as they are presented at those schools. It's an individual decision.
- Individual fit takes into account, among other things, the number of students in tech vs. humanities. For some students that is an important issue. For example, you hear students think long and hard over whether they want to attend Barnard for fear of being considered second class citizens next to Columbia. For some it means they opt out and choose a different school. For others, the community at Barnard and the resources at Columbia are an exciting opportunity. Eventually it becomes a non-issue. The same is no doubt true at every school. For most kids, once they settle into their chosen school, they adapt and take advantage of the wonderful resources the school has to offer.
Bottom line. Stanford is an amazing school. If a kid elects to attend, I am sure he or she will have a fabulous experience no matter what his major or interests. It is not, however, the only amazing school and it is not without its flaws. When someone comes to this community asking for input about the pros and cons of different choices, it is IMO distracting and unhelpful to react defensively.
Sorry for the long post.
^And Princeton has become (roughly) top 10 in Engineering and CS at the undergrad level. These are not usually seen as strengths at Princeton, but they still are very strong.
But yes, no school is world-class at everything, and among relative peers – or even if there is some substantial daylight between schools in the rankings – fit and cost should be the main considerations.
@3girls3cats I agree 100% with your posts.
There is a reason why HYPSM came into usage; it’s because these schools are pretty much in the same class and fit different students for different reasons. I personally feel another acronym should be used to include Univ of Chicago, Columbia and UPenn.
I agree the existence of HYPSM as an acronym is not random at all, there are very good reasons for it. These are the very top schools in terms of prestige and strength in most aspects and cover pretty much the entire gamut of interests, campus vibes, academic philosophies etc. Some students choose between them based on which school has the stronger department in their field of interest, others just choose based on which they like best.
I personally also agree with you that Columbia, Penn, Chicago (and prob. also Caltech) probably deserve another acronym as they also cover the gamut of all interests, strengths, vibes and are thought of at a level of strength and prestige a notch lower than HYPSM. ( To me the equivalencies are Caltech:MIT, Columbia:Harvard, Penn:Stanford, Chicago:Yale & Princeton).
Many would be quick to say the differences become much smaller after HYPSM, which is kind of true, but it is probably true that HYPSM and PCCC are the established 9 of the top 10 schools in most peoples minds nowadays.
OP here. Since y’all are still discussing, I thought I might as well pop in and share my thoughts now that I’ve decided.
I was lucky enough to be admitted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford. I eliminated Harvard and Princeton pretty easily since I didn’t feel like they were particularly good social/cultural fits, and I waffled between Yale and Stanford for a long time. Ultimately, I chose Stanford, and I’m confident that it was the right choice.
Here are some of the academic factors that went into my decision, especially w/r/t Stanford’s humanities programs:
- SLE was a huge draw for Stanford. I was looking for a Great Books program for my first year, since I think it would give me a broad basis in literature and philosophy that help me focus in on a specific discipline/time period later in my major. Yale's Directed Studies and Princeton's Humanities Sequence are similar programs, but I love that SLE is a residential, living/learning community. The kids seemed very close and all of them gushed about SLE.
- Speaking of which, Stanford's big on interest-driven, living/learning communities focused on the humanities. For the more arts inclined, there's ITALIC. For upperclassmen, there's the Humanities (Ng) House, the Casa Italiana/Maison Français, and ethnic dorms.
- In terms of rankings, I looked at the NRC rankings of the humanities fields I might want to explore in college (Classics, English, Art History, Philosophy, and Comparative Literature). As I said, I was really only comparing Yale and Stanford at this point. Out of the five fields I mentioned, Stanford did better than Yale in both the R-Rank and S-Rank in all but one field (Art History -- and given that Stanford recently poached Alexander Nemerov from Yale, that's likely going to make Art History stronger at Stanford.) If I recall correctly, both schools were tippy, tippy top for all five fields (except, oddly, Yale's philosophy dept, which ranked at a pitiful 39th place as compared to 2nd at Stanford.) Of course, NRC rankings focus on doctoral programs, but they still give you a sense as to department quality.
http://www.chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124718/
- My dad knows two Stanford professors, both big names in the humanities (think endowed chairs/major award winners). He called them up asking for advice. Both of them said that although there is a bigger techie culture at Stanford than at HYP, they both think Stanford's a great place to study the humanities. They said that the humanities students, while there are fewer of them per capita, are a very solidary, tight-knit group. They thought that humanities kids tend to be happier with what they're studying than the tech kids, because they're studying what they love rather than what's marketable. Students share the resources of Stanford's humanities departments among fewer people, making it such that they get more individual attention from professors than they might at HYP.
- Stanford is pouring money into the arts and humanities. The administration recently turned the Roble Gym into an arts gym, opened the Ng (Humanities) House (special interest dorm), and are funding summer SoCo and Overseas Seminars in the humanities and arts immersion trips over spring break, etc.
- There's an interdisciplinary focus in humanities fields. You can do a joint major (CS + X) between humanities and computer science, major in philosophy and literature, minor in Ethics in Society, or concentrate in History of Philosophy and the Arts within the history major, just to name a few options.
Obviously, there’s more to fit than just academic factors, and Stanford also happened to be the best fit for me in terms of distance from home, accessibility (I’m physically disabled), student culture, etc. But since this thread is about humanities at Stanford, I hope you find my observations useful.
Not that I’ve a dog in this fight but I’ve read the “Cath in College” post before and observed it says far more about her general insecurity with her choice than it does about Stanford. While it’s inevitable Stanford has problems (every institution does), it’ll take far more than her meandering angst to convince me that Stanford is hostile to the humanities.
Seriously. Does anyone objectively think “Stanford is hostile to the humanities?” I can’t see how you’d make that argument coherently as it fails the smell test. Likewise, I’m not sure arguing that Harvard (~1300 of ~1800 STEM or social science majors), Yale (~900 of ~1400 STEM or social science majors) or Princeton (~1050 of ~1300 STEM or social science majors) are comparative meccas for the humanities is arguable either (source: NCES navigator). Perhaps the coherent argument is that the current environment is hostile to the humanities everywhere?
As an irrelevant aside, I was astonished by the number of bio majors at all three universities.
Most of those Bio majors are premed. The high numbers don’t surprise me. Careers in medicine or law are popular among students at top colleges.
Chasingmerit, good luck at Stanford. It appears you did your research and know a lot about the school. I hope you enjoy your time there. The Stanford professors I know say it has become too techy and isn’t a good place for humanities majors. You’ll find out whether there is truth to their claims.
Hostile is too strong a word to describe how engineering students feel toward those studying humanities. I do know many engineers who laugh at humanities majors. So if I were a humanities major, I would choose to go to the school that has a high percentage of students interested in humanities.
Congratulations on your decision @ChasingMerit and here’s to an enriching and happy four years!