<p>Again, sheer speculation vs. actual knowledge of what happened.</p>
<p>The vast majority of the local scholarships in our town have a need based portion of the criteria. If the generous donor of the scholarship wants that to be considered, it should be. If not, it absolutely should not be part of the decision making. (I always assumed a 1040 would be required. Is that the case in other peolple's experience?)</p>
<p>I think the OP would be doing future students a great service by making a polite inquiry about the scholarship process. Who knows how many worthy kids are losing out? And how many completely false assumptions about need are being made by the GC? She sounds like an activist judge who is imposing her own views on the way the $$ should be awarded, rather than following the specifics laid out by the scholarship creators.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I always assumed a 1040 would be required. Is that the case in other peolple's experience?<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I volunteer at our local high school and help the counseling department during this scholarship season. When it comes to local scholarships, all students are required to fill out a generic High School scholarship application which asks about family income, family size, future career and educational plans, volunteer efforts, school and outside ECs, special individual and family circumstances (where the student can outline family problems, including need). No 1040 is required to substantiate need.</p>
<p>An outside group that wants to give a scholarship will send a letter detailing its criteria. The group will either ask the scholarship committee to pick a candidate for them based on the criteria, will ask the committee to pick 3-10 people who fit the criteria and send the High School scholarship app to them so that the group can pick the winner(s), or will ask the committee to find students who fit the criteria and then have the students fill out the group's own application (which can require 1040s, recommendations, essays, etc.).</p>
<p>So in answer to your question, at least in my experience, a 1040 hasn't often been required to validate family income.</p>
<p>Here, if financial need is part of the criteria, students are asked to provide a copy of their FAFSA SAR.</p>
<p>Happy4him,</p>
<p>I know how your son feels, because my son has the same feeling. He wishes it were over. Unfortunately, he is just a junior. The resentment is not with the teachers in his case but the kids. They get angry because he works his butt off in class, does not goof around, gets along with the teachers (important if you need a recommendation), and many kids cannot stand him. They dislike the fact that his grades are high, his SAT is high, that he can balance a part-time job, four APs and numerous club activities. Fortunately, he has his head on straight and realizes that he probably will have little contact with these kids when he graduates. As for the teachers, the day after graduation, he'll probably be in their rooms helping them pack for the summer!</p>
<p>I hate when this kind of thing happens. Some people live with their life trials and tribulations out there for all to see, the church has fund-raisers for the family, they are willing to accept public charity etc. Others keep their ups and downs private. People make tons of assumptions about others- who locally makes more money than their neighbor, etc. Many contractor friends could qualify for free and reduced lunches in half their business years and are doing really well the other half. Most of them do not take the charity in the slow years, in large part because they don’t want the school employees to know they do and to gossip. Those same people are assumed to ALWAYS earn what they made in one good year.</p>
<p>I am frugal, but I am also private. I am sure that if 100 acquaintances and even friends guessed my AGI, they would guess more than the reality. I would bet my brother thinks I make more money than him, but I don't. </p>
<p>I am sure that people in the town where my kids grew up would never think we have "need" but how offensive that a GC would make that assumption and relay it without talking to the student's family and without knowing for certain.</p>
<p>If the scholarship has no need component, then it should not be a consideration. I know people who are considered "needy" who are not any needier than others who do not put out that vibe.</p>
<p>That is one of the weaknesses of local scholarships; and the middle class person who is on CC feeling "screwed" by the system of finaid is equally "Screwed" by not being considered for local scholarships.</p>
<p>The subconscious impressions of the committee are bad enough, but the GC putting in info when they know incomplete info about the family's circumstances is just wrong.</p>
<p>Even in our small school with an excellent GC who I considered my friend, I did not tell him the details of my financial situation. It's not the school's business. I will fill out a FAFSA, I will give my tax returns to the college; I would give a 1040 page 1 to a scholarship committee, but I don't think it is realistic to think the local GCs know what is each family's reality. Especially when you read some of the GC horror stories here.</p>
<p>hs junior...$.02</p>
<p>it isn't fair for them to shut you out based on "perceived need"-either it's based on need or not! Even if you were rich and rolling in it, if that isn't part of the criteria, then it shouldn't be considered. </p>
<p>For me, I know I won't get any need scholarships, so I just don't waste time on them...and it's unfair for people to say something is "purely merit" when it isn't. </p>
<p>However, I do think it's too late now FOR YOU. At least in my experience, things rarely get "taken back", even if mistakes are made. At best you might get the same scholarship as the other person, but I doubt it. However, if you really feel that the GC is saying things, take it up with them.</p>
<p>The OP only has a hearsay, third-hand report of the conversation. It is very likely that the TRUE information conveyed by the GC is that the Ivy's are committed to meeting FULL NEED of all applicants in a very generous manner, which means that any outside scholarship money will be SUBTRACTED from need-based aid.</p>
<p>In other words, the awarding of a merit scholarship to a Harvard-admittee benefits the college, but not the student, who simply sees their college grant reduced as a result of the award.</p>
<p>Whatever info the g.c.. provided was probably in context of all applicants, so it is likely that the g.c. simply reported that OP is attending a college that will meet his full need, whereas students B, C, & D had all been admitted to colleges that would not typically meet their need. If I was on a scholarship committee with limited dollars to allocate, I certainly would want it to go to a student who would be able to put those dollars to best use.</p>
<p>You can't deride something as being "unfair" without looking at from the perspective of everyone involved. My d. had a friend in high school who was extremely smart & talented, and won a full ride scholarship to his dream school; subsequent to that, he also won a $10K award from a prestigious, competitive local private organization. Was it "fair" for him to win (and keep) the award he didn't need?</p>
<p>Anon, what you say is pretty accurate, in our experience. My senior-in-HS D got into a HYP this year, and we also will not qualify for finaid (the good news-bad news story). On the scholarship front, even local scholarships described as "merit" based have a need component. She didn't bother applying because she knew she would probably not be selected because she can't demonstrate need, and knew others who could really use the help and were comparable in merit. </p>
<p>She has received a couple of honorary awards recognizing excellence in some subject areas, but no $. I know many who assume that she got a "full ride" for school, completely misunderstanding the meaning of "need based" schools like HYP. Oh well. We're grateful for her opportunity to go to her first choice school.</p>
<p>Calmom:</p>
<p>H the OP received a scholarship, H would NOT have subtracted the scholarship amount from the finaid package. The scholarship would have been used to reduce the amount of the EFC and the summer job. This is stated quite clearly. Additionally, even when a student receives a full ride, if the student receives some outside scholarship, this can be applied toward buying a computer, books, etc...</p>
<p>The OP reported that a friend whose parents make more than his/hers received a scholarship. If the committee is going to consider need--and I think it is an entirely valid criterion--it ought to proceed on actual knowledge rather than guesswork, Knowledge of applicants' circumstances and of the actual policies of the colleges as they apply to individual applicants.</p>
<p>But the point is that Harvard meets full need of its students, and is very generous about defining "need". The g.c may very well have had actual knowledge of the other students' circumstances, and that along with knowledge of the OP's college policies could be enough to easily determine that the other students' need was far greater. </p>
<p>According to info the OP has provided, his FAFSA EFC is probably about $18,000. So he is attending one of the few colleges in the nation that will provide a more generous metric for determining need than FAFSA. He was competing for a scholarship against students who were very likely attending colleges that do not meet full need and structure aid packages that are heavy on loans. The g.c. very likely had direct and actual knowledge of who the most needy students are, because a kid from a family that was truly struggling to meet college costs would tell that to the g.c. (I mean - my kid's very well-meaning g.c. sent out an email to all students telling them NOT to accept any college until after letting him review their financial aid packages first - I emailed him back & said thanks, but we didn't need his help -- I think he could have safely assumed from that email that we weren't looking for more aid at that point). </p>
<p>The principal is the same: you can't decide something is "unfair" if you aren't seeing the big picture. The OP's financials as disclosed to us show that he has minimal financial need, and Harvard's policies are well known. </p>
<p>Also, Harvard DOES require students to report outside scholarships. Students whose need as determined by FAFSA is fully met are NOT eligible for federal aid such as subsidized loans and work study, and Harvard is obligated to make appropriate determinations in the dissemination of those funds. So whether or not grant aid would be reduced, the awarding of outside funds to a student whose FAFSA EFC has been fully met is going to reduce aid eligibility, including the amount of PLUS funds that the parents would be eligible to borrow.</p>
<p>Also, if the outside award was more than the expected contribution from the student earnings, the Harvard grant WOULD be reduced; the parental portion of the EFC is not reduced by outside awards, so OP's parents are paying that $10K with or without his getting the scholarship:
[quote]
How are outside awards treated for students already receiving need-based aid?</p>
<p>Outside awards are used first to reduce or replace the term-time work portion of the award. Currently there are 600 students who are not expected to work as a result.</p>
<p>Outside awards may now be used to replace the student summer earnings contribution but not the parent contribution.</p>
<p>To the extent that outside awards may exceed the term-time work and summer earnings portion of the award, the Harvard Scholarship is then reduced.
[/quote]
Source: Harvard</a> College Financial Aid Office - Fact Sheet</p>
<p>We don't know how much the scholarship would have been worth. But whatever the case, it would have reduced his summer earnings contribution and term-time work, or it could have been used to buy a laptop, books, etc... I calculate that $10/hr for 10 hours per week for 26 weeks is equivalent to $2600. Plus the $3500 that the student is expected to earn in summer, that's a total of $6,100. </p>
<p>That is right, we don't know the entire picture. But it still seems to me that the GC speculated on the family's need and speculated on how much finaid the family would get from Harvard. And it hurt that particular student.
The OP was shut out not only of the one he was aware of through the father's acquaintance, but of all the others to which he applied. As I said in another post, strange coincidence. While what was reported to the parents may not have been dispositive, it certainly sounds like it played a role.</p>
<p>No that isn't fair. Life isn't fair.</p>
<p>Choose your battles. This one isn't a winner.</p>
<p>Look forward. </p>
<p>Congratulations on Harvard!</p>
<p>
[quote]
And it hurt that particular student.
[/quote]
And it was probably manifestly "fair" because the other students who were considered were so much worse off than that particular student.</p>
<p>Maybe to a Harvard admit, "fair" means "me first" ---- but to a high school g.c., "fair" may mean making sure that the others in the group get their needs attended to. </p>
<p>Harvard doesn't expect first year students to earn $6100 over the summer - they want $1500 of summer earnings plus $2500 term-time work, which is $4000. So maybe the scholarship would mean $1,000 shaved off OP's work requirement.... or $1,000 shaved off of some other kid's Stafford loan. The other kids have work-study and summer earnings requirements too.... AND loans .... AND colleges that are counting their home equity in calculating EFC. </p>
<p>Sorry -- Northstarmom is right -- that GC pushed to get the OP into the college with the most generous financial aid policy in the country. Now "fair" means looking after the needs of the others who need to rely on outside sources of aid to meet need.</p>
<p>How do we know the GC "pushed" the student to get into Harvard? Most GCs send in a fairly perfunctory letter with the school profile. How do we know that the GC did anything beyond and above noting that the student was a stellar student, worthy of admission? In other words, should we applaud the GC for doing his or her job? </p>
<p>How do we know that the GC looked after the needs of the other students who needed more money? Sheer speculation. We DO know that the OP reported that one friend whose parents make more than the OP's got a scholarship. But merrily we speculate.</p>
<p>Yes, life is unfair. Let's all suck it up, shall we? Why even bother to reform, innovate, improve....</p>
<p>I have suggested that the OP make representations to the GC, not for the OP's sake, but for others about whom the GC would want to engage in baseless speculation about needs and resources. I stand by my advice.</p>
<p>"How do we know the GC "pushed" the student to get into Harvard? Most GCs send in a fairly perfunctory letter with the school profile. How do we know that the GC did anything beyond and above noting that the student was a stellar student, worthy of admission?"</p>
<p>While we don't know what the GC wrote, I do know that Harvard calls GCs to ask very detailed questions about students that Harvard is strongly considering for admission. I doubt if the student would have gotten in unless the GC provided some strong evidence that the student should have been one of the around 7% of applicants admitted regular decision this year.</p>
<p>"I think the OP would be doing future students a great service by making a polite inquiry about the scholarship process. Who knows how many worthy kids are losing out?"</p>
<p>Probably plenty of worthy students miss out because there could only be 2 winners. Any time there's a scholarship competition, many worthy students will not get the scholarship. This is also the case for things like HPY admissions: Many worthy students miss out because there's not space for all of them. Some such students may be among the OP's classmates.</p>
<p>What bothers me about local scholarships is that they aren't just about the money - it's recognition that your community values what you've done and is sending you off with some support. It's a shame that a student who contributed to his/her school academically and otherwise is shut out of the local scholarships because of a perceived lack of financial need. The dollar amount of these scholarships often isn't very high, but they are extremely meaningful. It says what your school thinks of you, and it just doesn't sit right with me that a student who earned admission to Harvard gets nothing. I have to say I hate the local scholarship award night, because every year there are (understandably) hurt feelings. On the other hand, it's not a battle I would ever try to fight because I don't see how it wouldn't come across as sour grapes. I agree the OP may not have the full facts but to leave your school empty handed isn't fair either - there's something not right there.</p>
<p>NSM:</p>
<p>I strongly doubt that Harvard makes call about the 2000+ students it admits every year, though I know that it makes calls about SOME students, especially those who might be borderline or about whom there might be some questions. I know that Harvard did not call my S's GC. We do not know that Harvard called the OP's GC. Speculative.</p>
<p>Yes, not all deserving students can get a scholarship or get into Harvard. That is besides the point. The point is that the GC did make some comments about the OP getting into Harvard and speculated about the adequacy of the finaid package. It could well be that if the GC had not made those comments, the OP would have lost out anyway. But the GC did make those comments. </p>
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<p>Some such students may be among the OP's classmates.> So? If they have greater financial need, wherever they go, then they should be considered for the scholarship. Otherwise, it's irrelevant.</p>
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<p>"If the scholarship has no need component, then it should not be a consideration. I know people who are considered "needy" who are not any needier than others who do not put out that vibe.</p>
<p>That is one of the weaknesses of local scholarships; and the middle class person who is on CC feeling "screwed" by the system of finaid is equally "Screwed" by not being considered for local scholarships."</p>
<p>To me, the bottom line is that the people offering the scholarships are doing a favor, and can use whatever criteria they want to select the winners. Those who have the gold can make the rules. They are under no obligation at all to let the world know the details about their priorities in selecting the winners.</p>
<p>Those who have strong opinions about how scholarships should be given should take the time and effort to donate to and raise money for local scholarships, and also take your free time to serve on the committees. I've done all of those things (not for scholarships my kids applied for), so I know how much work is involved, and would not be kvetching if my kids didn't get a scholarship that I thought they deserved: The committee has every right to select whom they want.</p>