Hypothesis: It's actually harder to get admitted from an underrepresented state

Applying to College
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<p>Following the discussion sparked by this link:</p>

<p>Number</a> of Students in the Class of 2013 by Geographic Region</p>

<p>Question: Is it better to be from MT(with 0 admits) or from NJ (with 185 admits) if you want to get into Princeton (or similar). I propose that it's better to be from NJ than MT.</p>

<p>Assume even distribution of intelligence across the various states among HS students, that top 1% student in MT is just as bright as the top 1% in NJ;</p>

<p>40 students from MT had their SAT scores sent to Princeton (<a href="http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/MT_09_03_03_01.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/MT_09_03_03_01.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) and that this group is likely among the ablest students in MT. There are additional students who sent their ACT's as that is much more common in MT than SAT.</p>

<p>MT has population of 1 million = 0.03% of US population.
Princeton freshman class = 1,200
% from MT = 0 (or 0.08% if there were 1 admit)</p>

<p>NJ has 8.7 million = 3% of US population.<br>
Princeton freshman class = 15.4% from NJ</p>

<p>NJ is significantly overrepresented, and it would appear that for a student desiring admission to Princeton, s/he has a much higher likelihood of being admitted from NJ than from MT.</p>

<p>Unknowns: How many actually applied, and how many were accepted
How many were accepted but chose to attend elsewhere
Qualifications of those accepted</p>

<p>Yes, this is a very gross analysis, and yes, there are issues of lower test scores on the average, severe lack of fancy EC/research opportunities, national contests/awards and million other caveats as to why MT students don't end up at Princeton, and yes, there is a significant difference between those admitted and matriculating.</p>

<p>But given that these underlying conditions exist, I am not sure that it's a given that a top 1% student from MT would have a significantly higher chance of being admitted to Princeton than a top 1% one from NJ. That just maybe, the reason a given state is underrepresented is because its harder for students from those states to get in given all the various educational and opportunity disadvantages?</p>

<p>NJ may not be the best example, but I think it applies to other overrepresented states as well.</p>

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<p>irrelevant</p>

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<p>^ that’s kind of a harsh response to something that obviously took a lot of time + effort to write haha.</p>

<p>i see your point completely, but I have to disagree, simply because of one of your unknowns: the qualifications of students from NJ probably blast away those from MT</p>

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<p>^^collegeboss: Thanks for you thoughtful response. I’m glad you took the time.</p>

<p>NW: I think part of my point is that the NJ students may be so much more ‘qualified’ because they have opportunities, not because they are innately better in some way. And that that fact produces a negative bias for the MT kids that seems to be much larger than any geographic plus they may receive.</p>

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<p>You need to account for legacies (who often live in NJ) and the children of Princeton professors and staff. These people are usually given priority in admissions, especially faculty children.</p>

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<p>^^In addition colleges, even private colleges, often have committments to serve and support the states and communities in which they are located - not to the same extent as state schools of course but enough to skew the numbers. For example Harvard will give an extra admissions boost to graduates of Cambridge-area high schools. This may also account for some of the increased representation of NJ in the Princeton admits.</p>

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<p>Do students in Montana have an overall lesser chance of attending an Ivy than those in NJ? Obviously. That’s basically the definition of an “underrepresented state.”</p>

<p>We call living in Montana a boost, though, because when everything else on the application is controlled for(assume similar quality schools), the app with “location: montana” will be a little more successful at Ivies than the app with “location: new jersey.” URM is considered a boost in the same sense.</p>

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<p>Princeton boosts NJ students for town and gown relations. You’d do better to compare a state that had a similarly high admit rate but isn’t the location of Princeton and isn’t somewhere very nearby like New York that’s likely covered in legacies.
No offense to MT, but I feel like the top 1% there likely isn’t as well-qualified as the top 1% in states that send high numbers of students to Princeton. An MT student who was equally qualified as some of the NJ admits would, I believe, have a higher chance of getting in. Princeton doesn’t want to say “we admitted students from almost every state this year.” They want to say “we accepted students from every state.”</p>

<p>Other things: I’m betting MT has way fewer applicant to Princeton than NJ does. If Princeton is the school in your backyard, and you’re in the running, stats-wise, you’ll probably apply to it over schools of a similar caliber, and if you got in, you’d go to it over those schools. If you live in MT with scores and grades like that, you’d probably be as likely to apply to Princeton as you would be to apply to any HYPSMC or top 20 school, and if you got in, you’d have less of a reason to pick Princeton over all the others.</p>

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<p>Oh how i wish this was true…</p>

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<p>From what I have been told, being from an underrepresented state is a boost on your app. Idk…doesnt it make sense too…colleges are looking for diversity so they dont want 1000 kids from the NE and 2 kids from the midwest.</p>

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<p>“I feel like the top 1% there likely isn’t as well-qualified as the top 1% in states that send high numbers of students”</p>

<p>Exactly, I fully agree that if you’re an equally qualified candidate, it’s better to be from MT. But it’s much <em>tougher</em> to get to that point if you are from MT. </p>

<p>I have a typo in my OP. Population of MT is 0.3% of US, not 0.03%.</p>

<p>NY state pop: 19M = 6.3%
129 P admits = 10.8% of class</p>

<p>PA state pop: 12M= 4% of US pop
91 P admits = 7.6% of class</p>

<p>Given above numbers, if you were a toddler with the goal of attending P, would you choose to grow up in MT (not taking into account the gorgeous scenery, clean air, no traffic, antelopes playing etc) or in one of the above states?</p>

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<p>Also, I bet that Princeton looms much larger on the radar of kids growing up in NJ and other mid-Atlantic states than it does on kids who grow up on a cattle ranch in Montana. So, I’m sure that intelligence is pretty much equally distributed across the country, but many of the smart kids in Montana simply may not think of Princeton if and when they think of college. </p>

<p>I went to high school in a small, rural farming and ranching town in central Oregon. And for smart kids there going off to an exciting, far away school meant applying to colleges in say California. Most had heard of Ivy League schools, but as a practical reality Princeton University might as well have been located in France or on Mars. It just wasn’t part of our view of the world. By contrast, I’m sure that many smart kids in NJ are <em>very</em> aware of and focused on Princeton.</p>

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<p>You are confusing matriculating students with admitted students. Pton very well could have lost out on cross admits.</p>

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<p>^^ I did note that in my OP</p>

<p>This ‘phenomena’ is not unique to Princeton. MT is underrepresented in all top tier schools. There just are not very many ‘qualified’ students from MT, interested in top tier schools, to go around. I hear people say “I wish I was from MT because it’s easier to get in.” My point is, as we say around here, it ain’t all roses.</p>

<p>My son’s honors physics teacher, for example, actively discourages his students from applying to top tier schools. He feels it’s waste of money. Needless to say, we did not ask him for a rec, despite that is what DS will be going into.</p>

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<p>My apologies. I had skimmed that part.</p>

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<p>Private college admissions is easier for students from under-represented states.</p>

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<p>Another point I just remembered, </p>

<p>High end parents from MT send their kids away to boarding schools. The only kid within recent memory that went to Harvard, from this town, attended Exeter. So these parents obviously have decided its more advantageous to be from Exeter than from HS in MT with top scores etc.</p>

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<p>Montana without a doubt. We used to joke that we might have to move somewhere like that to get our kids into good colleges.</p>

<p>As others have noted, these schools just aren’t on the radar of many in underrepresented states while they are rampant addictions for every affluent kid in the overrepresented states.</p>

<p>If I were a parent with the goal of getting a capable kid into an ivy and could live anywhere, I’d choose a Montana and use the strategy of getting the kid involved in interesting activities and enrichment programs. The result would be a student who had a massive advantage over any kid in NJ.</p>

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<p>Hmm well for me personally, growing up in an upper-middle class family in NE, I had kinda struggled with the dearth of opportunities that I have been offered. Initially, I planned on going to high school at a good Catholic private school, but my parents were reluctant to pay the 16,000 grand a year that it took to enroll there because they just assumed “I could excel in any environment.” I reluctantly agreed.</p>

<p>Now, I am a senior in high school at a school that is moderate in size (300 people in my class) and located right outside of Omaha. In the last ten years, the best school anyone has ever attended was Dartmouth and along time ago we had a student or two attend MIT, but no one has ever gone to HYP. We are not as “rural” or anything as some other schools that are close by, but we simply cant compete with those private schools in the Northeast. </p>

<p>As far as opportunities go, well they arent that great. At my school, I am probably the first person to ever know what “Siemens, Intel, USABO and the like” are. We had literally no science based ECs too. So, my junior year I finally founded our schools science club. Through it, I was able to bring science olympiad to my school last year and the USxOs this year. However, the national olympiad competitions are coming at the end of my senior year, so they will be of no real help to me for college admissions.</p>

<p>In the clubs I am currently in, I have worked hard and won a hand full of state championships in economic, service, and science (olympiads). However, we simply do not have the resources to prepare or even allow students to go onto “major national” competitions. </p>

<p>Lastly, with regards to standardized testing at my school, we havent done so well. Last year was the first year in the 90 or so years of our school that we have ever had a student get a 36 on the ACT (she was the girl who went to Dartmouth after getting denied from Columbia ED). However, I was the first person to break the 2300 barrier on the SAT…then again maybe 1% of my school will take the SAT…so ya. </p>

<p>Moral of the story is this. I might get a boost from being from NE, but my schooling hasnt been great. I am not disadvantaged by any means, but the opportunities I have been offered have only really been “average” and “average” doesnt get one into the Ivy leage.</p>

<p>Thanks,
Robbie</p>

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<p>hmom, speaking as a parent of a capable kid who could live anywhere, we have wondered about the wisdom of living in MT vis-a-vis our kids education. I feel better. It’s not easy having interesting activities sometimes. My son is a fencer, and there is not a single coach in the entire state, which runs 500 miles from east to west.</p>

<p>Robbie, cross posted: Yes, that’s exactly the same boat we are in, and many others from out in the fly over states.</p>