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I would add that at HYP, at least, a lot of potential buyers can get the product at a tremendous discount, if they are allowed to buy it at all. It’s a great deal.</p>
<p>School reputation is nothing, what student is doing there is everything. Perceived value is only for those who do not work hard themselves and rely on value of school name not thier hard work. Huge opportunities are absolutely everywhere, but there are few at the top who will get them, no matter Ivy or state of the charts.</p>
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<p>While you’re correct regarding free tuition, I’m not sure you’re correct about the open admissions policy.</p>
<p>According to this article:</p>
<p>[Wait-Listed</a> at CUNY, Part I: Open Admissions Dies Again | The Advocate](<a href=“http://www.gcadvocate.com/2010/08/wait-listed-at-cuny-the-latest-attack-on-public-education-part-i/]Wait-Listed”>http://www.gcadvocate.com/2010/08/wait-listed-at-cuny-the-latest-attack-on-public-education-part-i/)</p>
<p>open admissions ended in 1999 when they mandated all students requiring remedial courses to enroll in the 2-year community colleges whereas they were previously allowed into the 4-year colleges.</p>
<p>I had the impression that WUSTL was originally regarded as a pre-med powerhouse…</p>
<p>I agree about branding, short-cuts to prestige, being labelled as exceptionally smart and the recipient of a good education.</p>
<p>The self-perpetuation comes from the fact that the top applicants are attracted to applying there, such that the pools of the Ivies and top-ranked schools may very well be the most competitive, with highest average stats, and so forth. Thus GETTING IN is considered a huge marker for success (forgetting that LUCK and HOOKs may have been factors!)</p>
<p>Back in cave-man days, SIZE would have been similar shortcut/not always accurate way of judging how successful another human was: well-nourished, healthy, successful at hunting, finding or growing food, from a well-managed/ prosperous/ stable group… Rather crude, but has some use! Humans can be pretty simplistic when seeking patterns and meaning in complex situations, especially those requiring instant decisions!</p>
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<p>I think there is a wide range in the teaching effectiveness, in the exposure to different ways of thinking, and in the rigor of college courses. I’ve been blown away watching an MIT free course on physics and comparing it to my college lectures - there is a world of difference - I showed one lecture to my daughter (who attended an ivy) and she said her courses were like that - with lots of demonstrations and deep thinking. I’ve also looked through (and read) the printed handouts of supplemental readings that have accompanied her humanities courses and remembered back to the comparatively weak courses I took in college back in the day. School reputation is definitely not “nothing.”</p>
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<p>A counter example:</p>
<p>DS, a sophomore, is interested in math/physics. He was talking about potentially applying to MIT for grad school so, out of curiosity, I looked up their requirements. They basically said “need preparation similar to what one would have received as an undergrad at MIT.” </p>
<p>I looked up the offerings of our directional state U in our town (5000 students). One physics professor in the entire U, physics not available as a major. Basic physics the only course offered.</p>
<p>Small LAC in town (1000 students). No math major offered. Meager math/physics offerings.</p>
<p>Math offering at state flagship (10,000 students): one semester of Real Analysis at the graduate level and nothing at the undergrad level. For comparison, DS is taking 2 semesters of Honors Real Analysis (which I expect is at least as rigorous as the grad class at Flagship) as a sophomore.</p>
<p>Frankly, I just don’t see how any student attending these schools, no matter how driven, could graduate with a curriculum ‘comparable’ to that of an MIT UG, and thereby make themselves competitive for a grad program at MIT (or similar).</p>
<p>^ihs, I don’t know what state you’re in, but apparently it’s a very weak one for public undergraduate education.</p>
<p>I looked up the physics department for our nearby “directional:”</p>
<p>Full professors: 10
Associate professors: 8
Plus assistant professors, visiting professors, lecturers, and adjuncts</p>
<p>[Faculty</a> & Staff Directory - NIU - Physics](<a href=“http://www.physics.niu.edu/physics/directory/faculty1.shtml]Faculty”>http://www.physics.niu.edu/physics/directory/faculty1.shtml)</p>
<p>I’d so the same for our flagship, but why bother?</p>
<p>“Perceived value is only for those who do not work hard themselves and rely on value of school name not thier hard work.”</p>
<p>This is an overstatement. Harvard and UMass both produce a lot of graduates who worked hard and got excellent grades in a tough curriculum. Given the same major and GPA, will they have the same opportunities? Maybe, but maybe not.</p>
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<p>Which state? Seems hard to believe that any state flagship would be that weak in math. What you describe for your flagship seems less than what the least selective (2.5 HS GPA, 900 SAT CR+M gets in as a freshman; 2.0 GPA gets in as a junior transfer) four year state university in California offers in math.</p>
<p>On the other hand, many small LACs have limited offerings in math and physics. And physics is not all that popular a major, especially at less selective schools, so it would not be surprising if there were not a physics major available at some selective state universities, or that it was under consideration of being cut due to low enrollment (e.g. <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/us/budget-cuts-threaten-underenrolled-physics-departments.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/us/budget-cuts-threaten-underenrolled-physics-departments.html</a> ).</p>
<p>Hard work will not convert your faculty mentor into a more connected mentor.</p>
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<p>Which state? Seems hard to believe that any state flagship would be that weak in math. What you describe for your flagship seems less than what the least selective (2.5 HS GPA, 900 SAT CR+M gets in as a freshman; 2.0 GPA gets in as a junior transfer) four year state university in California offers in math.</p>
<p>On the other hand, many small LACs have limited offerings in math and physics. And physics is not all that popular a major, especially at less selective schools, so it would not be surprising if there were not a physics major available at some selective state universities, or that it was under consideration of being cut due to low enrollment (e.g. <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/us/budget-cuts-threaten-underenrolled-physics-departments.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/us/budget-cuts-threaten-underenrolled-physics-departments.html</a> ).</p>
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<p>Certainly there are many colleges and universities where it would be difficult to get enough math and physics to be competitive for a grad program at MIT. But that doesn’t mean you need to go to an Ivy, MIT, or Caltech. Just look up who the grad students are at schools like MIT (easier to find for some schools and departments than for others). In physics at MIT, for example, the “Women in Physics” web page shows 8 women grad students with biographical information identifying their undergrad institutions. Two did their undergrad at Ivies (Yale and Harvard), 3 went to LACs (Carleton, Wellesley, Franklin & Marshall), one to a public flagship (U Maryland-College Park), and two to foreign universities (Cambridge and Trieste). </p>
<p>Seven of the top 15 and 15 of the top 30 math graduate programs (according to the NRC rankings) are at public universities. Certainly any ambitious undergrad attending any of those schools can get as much math as he or she needs for any top math graduate program; indeed sky’s the limit as advanced undergrads can usually take graduate courses during their undergrad years if they meet the prerequisites. UC Berkeley’s math Ph.D. program is actually ranked ahead of MIT’s, and Michigan’s is ranked in a virtual tie with MIT. Wisconsin is ranked ahead of Yale. UC Davis is ranked ahead of Brown, Cornell, and Penn. In fact 8 Big Ten schools, all publics, are ranked ahead of Penn in math; the only Big Ten schools not to have that distinction are the one private member (Northwestern) and two publics (Iowa and Nebraska). Six UCs (Berkeley, Davis, San Diego, Irvine, LA, and Santa Barbara) are ranked ahead of Penn in math.</p>
<p>Similar story in physics: 13 of the top 30 physics Ph.D. programs are at publics, and 16 publics rank ahead of Brown, which in physics is at about the same level as Texas A&M, Indiana, and Iowa State.</p>
<p>That’s not to knock Penn or Northwestern in math or Brown in physics; I’m sure they do a fine job with what they’ve got. But there are literally dozens of schools where an ambitious student can get all the math and physics to be accepted into, and prepared to succeed in, a top-notch Ph.D. program. And many do. And that doesn’t even begin to count the several dozen LACs that are truly outstanding in math and physics, and in fact produce more Ph.D.s per capita than many top universities.</p>
<p>ucb:</p>
<p>Here’s the spring offering in the math dept. This is the more STEM oriented flagship of the two in the state.</p>
<p>[Mathematics</a> and Statistics Course Links](<a href=“http://www.math.montana.edu/courses/courselinks.html#Math_Courses]Mathematics”>Course Links - Department of Mathematical Sciences | Montana State University)</p>
<p>annasdad: Welcome to the rest of the country. Didn’t realize you were in the hoity toity part of the U S of A? 
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<p>bclintonk: Oh I agree with you completely. I disagree with whoever posted that one can get where one needs to get to from whereever, given enough willpower. The two institutes of higher learning in my city (both of which are quite respected in this state BTW) are woefully inadequate for the purposes we are discussing.</p>
<p>Hmmm, budget cuts in a very small population state with very low enrollment in math courses (beyond those needed for other majors)?</p>
<p>Looks like they still list a math major, whose requirements include a lot more courses than it appears are being offered according to your link.</p>
<p>Still, a student need not go to a super-selective school to get a reasonable selection of math major courses. The WUE school list includes some schools where a Montana resident can major in math.</p>
<p>I don’t get it either. I am a graduate of an Ivy League University and am in academics. I have found very intelligent,high achieving people in non-Ivy universities. I think many parents and students who do not understand the nuances of higher education aspire to the Ivies for prestige and bragging rights. I can’t say that after the first few years where I got my degree mattered. Success is based on merit. In fact, at times I would say that the Ivy degree was harmful as I encountered insecurity and distrust from colleagues who assumed what a graduate of an Ivy must be.
I am not encouraging my children to apply for undergraduate work at the Ivies. There are many great quality schools that are more nurturing and with greater access to faculty. I think that the Ivies are fine for graduate and professional school. But again, not a major tragedy if receiving a non-Ivy advanced degree. </p>
<p>P.S.
I find it interesting when I see people who want to become engineers aspiring for the Ivies. If they really want a great degree in engineering, they should be applying to some of the state schools such as Texas A. and M. 2Paths mom</p>
<p>“The rest of the country” representing what percentage of the US population? </p>
<p>Without going through the exercise of looking up the situation at other very small state flagship, I’m going to guess that Montana represents the exception. </p>
<p>(My D’s magnet high school has a more challenging set of advanced math courses.)</p>
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<p>I think Bogney did a marvelous job foreshadowing the deterioration of this thread. :)</p>
<p>parentoftwo,
“I’ve been blown away watching an MIT free course on physics and comparing it to my college lectures - there is a world of difference - I showed one lecture to my daughter (who attended an ivy) and she said her courses were like that - with lots of demonstrations and deep thinking.”
D. had very wide ranges of every science class at her state UG. You cannot compare Physics to calc-based Physics to Physics for engineering majors and few others. I am talking about level one, I am not comparing intro to the next class. The same goes for Gen. Chem, Biochem…others. I agree there is a world difference taking science classes at the same UG that are designated for different people/purpose/major/used different math backgrounds. It is very beneficial to have choices also. </p>
<p>"Hard work will not convert your faculty mentor into a more connected mentor. "</p>
<p>-Oh, yes, many yeses, it will. The harder you work, the more connected mentor you get and the ones at the very top. This one is a winner for sure. Hard work also will result in many more opportunities, the ones that average college kid does not even see, they are unknown to them, never offerred.</p>
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<p>Exhibit A, posted today in another thread:</p>
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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13593052-post12655.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13593052-post12655.html</a></p>
<p>Annasdad:</p>
<p>S is an excellent student at a prep school here in FL. High test scores, captain of multiple athletic teams, community service awards, etc…All the things you need to be competitive at the Ivies. He has not applied to a single Ivy because he wants a smaller school where the focus is on the UG student. He does not feel that the Ivies place enough emphasis on the UG. He has applied to 3 smaller universities and 3 small LAC.</p>
<p>Some of his friends are shocked that he “sold himself short” by not applying to the Ivies but his list contains some very selective schools. I really wish kids would consider a wider universe of schools outside the Ivies. There are many prestigious schools that are not part of the Ivy League.</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with aspiring to the Ivies but they are not the only prestigious schools out there.</p>