<p>I just posted a "thorough" review for Syracuse University based on our visit. You can find it in the alphabetical listing of schools.</p>
<p>Thank you for the wonderful report of the school. We have not had chance to visit, so I really appreciated it. I did respond under Syracuse U with some comments.</p>
<p>I have just clarified my review with your great comments.</p>
<p>Here's an article from our newspaper today about Syracuse's successful attempts to recruit minority students - not sure how long access to the article will be available, but this may be of interest to some:
<a href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050904/news_1n4syracuse.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050904/news_1n4syracuse.html</a></p>
<p>As I said in my review, diversity to Syracuse University is its holy grail. They will go to great lengths and spend huge sums to achieve this result over that of other goals. Laudably they have also achieved a high graduation rate. However, was this achieved due to quality mentoring or due to watering down the courses so that more pass? Perhaps, it is a combination of factors.</p>
<p>I personally don't see a committment to diversity as a negative, Taxguy, but obviously you do. What other schools is your daughter considering?</p>
<p>No , I don't consider diversity as a negative. In fact, I consider it a benefit educationally as long as it isn't carried to an extreme! My daughter attended the pre-college art program 2 years ago. We paid$5,000 for the program to find out that a full 25% were given free scholarships based on need. I guess I don't mind subsidizing some 5-10%,but I do mind 25%. Just for the record, Syracuse received so much flack as a result of publishing those stats to the parents of the pre-college program that they don't publish these stats anymore for good reason.</p>
<p>My daughter will apply to RISD, RIT, Syracuse, University of Cincinnati, Towson University and maybe CMU.</p>
<p>So diversity is good...but only if minorities can pay their own way?</p>
<p>And, why are you assuming that the "25% who received full scholarships based on need" at the summer program were all minorities?</p>
<p>I don't mean to pick on you, but Syracuse gives plenty of financial aid to lower income white students too.</p>
<p>Reread my posts Carolyn( posts 1,3 and 5). I never said they were minorities. That was your interpretation. I said I was against paying as much as 25% for any subsidy for diversity. This is true whether for economic, racial, religious or tuti fruity.</p>
<p>Racial diversity frankly never enter my mind for admission. We helped select schools based on what had a strong visual arts program, not on what was most economically or racially diverse or not diverse. If a school has a lot of diversity of any type, I frankly don't care as long as they have good programs. I do care, however, how much I pay to support others. Yes, I guess I draw a line as to what is valid support and what constitutes too much support. To me, 5% and maybe even as much as 10% is valid support and 25% is excessive.
Perhaps that is wrong; however, it is the way I feel.</p>
<p>By the way, as proof of what I am saying, just check into the schools that my daughter is applying to:</p>
<p>1.RISD which is geographically diverse but not that racially or economically diverse.
2. Cincinnati ( which is number 2 choice): very racially and economically diverse
3. RIT: Not that diverse in most ways
4. Syracuse: Very diverse in many ways
5. Towson: moderately diverse in many ways especially economically diverse
6. CMU: Can be racially diverse if you count Asians. I don't think they are that economically diverse.</p>
<p>OH yes, I don't think that you are picking on me Carolyn. Being a former high school debater, I enjoy the banter.:)</p>
<p>But, taxguy, your in a position were you could pay for your daugter. Those 25% were, most likely, not.</p>
<p>Private_ Joker, first I will have three kids on college at the same time! Secondly, who is to say what economic position that I am in. Finally, and most importantly, I don't want anyone, especially a private school, to say what I will or what I want to afford. If you don't agree, let me pick your wallet every week without your opinion. See how much you like that.</p>
<p>Frankly, I would rather donate a lot to New Orleans help; however, that at least is my choice.</p>
<p>Taxguy, so, are you saying that if a college offered you a nice hefty financial aid package, you would turn it down...because others "would be footing the bill" for your child?</p>
<p>And, perhaps you may want to reread your posts, because they sure sound like you equate "financial aid" with "minority student" to me. Examples:</p>
<p>Most schools are liberal,but Syracuse takes the word liberal to a new high. For example, they have just instituted scholarships for one of the following six Haudenosaunee nations: Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca or Tuscarora. Moreover, Syracuse is BIG on diversity in both faculty hiring, and student admissions. There are constant program dealing with diversity in their news. Interestingly however, Syracuse was ranked by Princeton Review as being in the bottom 8 schools when it comes to the races actually mixing well. I am not quite sure what this ranking means.
I guess in order to offset the fact that most kids come from wealthy parents, Syracuse tries to bring in many others who aren't as fortunate. Thus, if you are paying mostly full freight, you can have the pleasure of knowing that a fair amount of your tuition is benefiting those less fortunate.</p>
<p>As I noted, Syracuse is liberal beyond belief almost to the detriment of the students. For example, If you are majoring in visual communication, advertising design or architecture, you will be taking upper level classes off campus at a warehouse in the center of the city...Syracuse instituted this for political correctness in order to be more "integrated with the city," according to their press release. Also, as I noted, Syracuse is big on giving scholarships especially for need and diversity reasons. Thus, think of them as a form of Robin Hood.</p>
<hr>
<p>And in response to my posting an article about the increase in the percentage of minority students at Syracuse (the post # 5 you refer to):</p>
<p>As I said in my review, diversity to Syracuse University is its holy grail. They will go to great lengths and spend huge sums to achieve this result over that of other goals. Laudably they have also achieved a high graduation rate. However, was this achieved due to quality mentoring or due to watering down the courses so that more pass?</p>
<p>I don't get it, taxguy. So, assumingly, Syracuse made a mistake and your daughter should have been the one to have a full-scholarship for the program. Or better yet the students who are poorer and never could have afforded a program like that should have not been accepted in the first place? </p>
<p>On another note, I didn't mean to say that you were in a certain economic position. Instead, I meant that you actually payed for your daughter. That doesn't mean I said you were rich, but you that you paid for your child.</p>
<p>I'll pass on this discussion.</p>
<p>What I don't understand about this discussion is, how did Syracuse University get singled out in this discussion? I mean, are they any different from every other college that is giving out scholarships? For instance, RPI has 27% of their students there on the Medal Program, how does that differ from Syracuse? Are you better off "subsidizing" smart kids or poor kids??? Does this "subsidy" come from the tuition of other students or is it from other funding/foundation sources? Doesn't it enrich the field to have schools use their scholarship monies for whatever purpose they think improves their educational environments; whether it be diversity, talent, athletics, or smarts? Perhaps Syracuse would make the argument that perhaps the reason they have a quality arts program is because of diversity...</p>
<p>Hey, don't nobody knock my alma mater! </p>
<p>Syracuse was a great place to spend two years. The Honors Program allowed me to take seminars and graduate courses, and the profs were wonderful, very involved with the students. My classes were challenging, I was able to take several graduate seminars as a senior, the school was very flexible and my advisor was engaged and friendly - had me over to dinner with his family, etc.</p>
<p>A student from my son's HS graduated from Syracuse this year - he has had a fantastic four years in musical theatre and raves about the school.</p>
<p>Orangewoman</p>
<p>First let me note that I do NOT knock the education of Syracuse in any way. Let me make that clear. This is especially true since I have had very little interaction with them other than two visits and having a daughter attend a pre-college program during the summer. In fact, considering that they have some strong programs in both graduate and undergraduate school and have a highly successful rate of graduation, they are doing something right in nurturing these kids.</p>
<p>Weenie, You are correct. Many colleges do subsidize those that are more needy. However, Syracuse seems to be more blatant about it. If you look at their news over the last few months, you will see planty of articles, including reading their strategic initiative, about increasing diversity. I am not sure what diversity frankly is. Does it mean racial diviersity,which I believe is the thrust of what they are trying to do? Does it mean economic diversity?</p>
<p>Also, when I sent my daughter to the Pre-college program at Syracuse, they notified us by mail as to who was there on scholarship and who wasn't. Why they sent parents this information, I am not sure. It certainly didn't make me feel warm and furry to know that 25% of the kids were there on scholarship. Should I have felt better that I am subsidizing these needy kids? Maybe. However, I just felt robbed. I guess I am not that egalitarian.</p>
<p>You also note whether having a diverse student body ( whatever that means) improves education? Yes, I believe, as I noted in my post, that it does. How much it helps the overall education is the question. Thus, I am willing to pay something to subsidize talented but economically "needy" kids (note I said economically needy, which means regardless of race, creed,age, religion, or sex). If diversity means solely racially or ethnically related, I would absolutely be against it- period!</p>
<p>I guess we can get into the argument for affirmative action,but that is too complex , and I won't discuss that.</p>
<p>The final question then deals with amount. I am willing, as a parent, to subsidize economically needy kids, not just to help them, but also to improve the overall quality of the education for everyone. However, I am only willing to pay so much. Thus, the question is "How much is too much?" I place the value at 5-10% max if I have any say in it. I do believe 25% is too much. Again, this is my opinion. I am not stating this as fact,just on my personal beliefs.</p>
<p>I will say that an incident that happened to my parents have affected me greatly. About 55-60 years ago, my parents went to Virginia beach. On the beach was a sign stating, "No Jews, Dogs, or Niggers allowed." It affected their psyche all their lives and, as such, affected me. I therefore am very adamant against ANY form of discrimination, or even reverse discrimination. To me, merit should be the way of the world- period. Now I know that this can't be 100%, as with those poor folks in New Orleans,,but I rarely would endorse anything that isn't totally merit driven. </p>
<p>I have come a long way in that I am willing to pay something to subsidize needy students,but I do have a limit. I guess we can argue as to how much is too much.</p>
<p>Weenie asks,"Are you better off "subsidizing" smart kids or poor kids??? "</p>
<p>Response: In my humble opinion, the subsidy should be based on talent. If a school gets kids that are so much better than most of their "normal" applicants, they should encourage some of them to come to the school with strong subsidies. However, this applies to needy kids too. They have to be very talented either by grades/SATs, or some innate talent. If, however, you gave me a choice between subsidizing a needy kids with decent talent and a very sharp kid/ or supremely talented kid who may not need the money (which some colleges seem to be making that distinction), I would rather see the funds go to the supremely sharp/talented kid because it would, in my opinion, benefit everyone to a larger extent. Again, I am very merit oriented regardless of need. I am sure this post will be set afire by the flames.:)</p>
<p>Yulsie, I never knew you were a fellow alumus. And, if Syracuse hadn't been committed even then to helping kids from less-priviledged backgrounds, I would not have been able to attend. Unfortunately, if taxguy had his way, that would not have been the case as I wasn't "supremely sharp and talented." I was, however, qualified to get in and do the work --- just needed financial help to attend.</p>
<p>I will be paying full freight for both of my kids. And, I don't see that as anyone taking something directly from my pocket.</p>
<p>A fellow organgewoman</p>
<p>Taxguy,</p>
<p>I don't think you can blatantly separate need based aid and merit aid and put them in two airtight boxes. There is a place for one and a place for the other. I would hate to see either option go away. </p>
<p>Like Carolyn, I look at this from two perspectives. I grew up in a factory neighborhood in Detroit. I loved books like crazy but there was no way that my preparation could be as strong as the kids coming from the wealthy suburbs. I was awarded a lot of need-based aid and a little merit aid and ended up attending a wonderful small LAC. The world opened up in college. I was exposed to things that simply did not exist in my urban neighborhood. I went on to earn two master's degrees plus a doctorate from one of the ivies. I've taught at colleges, worked in academic and public libraries and have enjoyed being a mom. The point is that this never would have happened unless someone took a chance on me with need-based aid.</p>
<p>Next fall, I'll be sending a son to college. I do not expect need-based aid and am happy paying my fair share of tuition. If I want merit aid for my son, I am aware that there are certain schools that are more generous in this regard while others are less so. Our son in consultation with our family will make the decision how important merit aid is and gear his applications accordingly. I don't know enough about Syracuse to address your specific concerns. But the beauty of this system is that there are hundreds of choices out there with differing variables on the need-based and merit-based scale. If Syracuse doesn't work for your family, there are a lot more options to explore. As imperfect as this system is, I think it's enormously better than the "old days" where need-based aid scarcely existed. So hurrah for Syracuse if this is how the school has chosen to define itself!</p>