I kind of dont get it

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>All the questions on the board--- princeton vs. Stanford. Princeton vs. MIT. Those seem like very easy decisions to me-- both fantastic institutions, just take one, youll become part of the culture and it will be fine. </p>

<p>The question in my mind is princeton v. Something like a Pittsburgh or a villanova -- where Pittsburgh and villanova are full rides (tuition room and board)</p>

<p>The difference in cost at even a low interest rate is $300000 upon graduation. If princeton somehow results in a 25000 a year bump in your salary, it's still looking at a -- almost 17 year payback at 4% interest. </p>

<p>I've not seen any publication from princeton that frames this decision in any way. Maybe the highly touted Econ department should take a look at it and ask " are we really worth it". </p>

<p>Because this parent would like to know.</p>

2

<p>Well, no one asked this question because you cannot be in such a situation.
How on earth will a middle-class student graduate from Princeton with 300k$ of debt?
I mean Princeton has the LOWEST average debt among the peer institutions and its financial aid is among the best.
And if ever someone was required to pay the whole think he or his parents must be super rich, in which case they won’t really let him get such huge loans.
Finally, It is not 300k$: it is like 240k (with inflation) in the worst case. And the impact is not simply a slight bump for the first job but rather an undying prestige + committed Alumni network to which he/she will be attached for ever.
I seriously don’t get why all of this anger: did your son get in with 0 Financial aid or what?
If so, you shouldn’t really be that angered by the tuition and you could find other good schools with merit scholarships (UC’s and such…)
Oh, and those questions you find easy such as MIT vs. Princeton are in fact the hardest (one you get rid of the financial factor)</p>

3

<p>For one, if anyone is paying full sticker price (which is still not $300,000) then their family is very wealthy. Last I checked half of students whose families made over $250,000 a year receive financial aid. More to the point, the average award is near 40k a year, which means the average student would pay a total of ~80k over 4 years (not an actual statistic, just a quick estimate).</p>

<p>Then, if you want to only look at if from that perspective, from the data I’ve seen the expected bump in median salary is fairly substantial. You’d be expected to make it up in a few years. </p>

<p>In other words, I think the current state of financial aid has made the answer - if you ignore every other factor but cost versus expected income - usually a place like Princeton over the alternatives.</p>

4

<p>That seems really peculiar, because factoring in my Post 9/11 GI Bill Benefits, a Yellow Ribbon Program contribution from Veteran Affairs and the university, and Princeton’s normal financial aid, the contribution on my end is manageable even with a military salary. (As a sergeant with over 4 years of active service, I make just barely over 30k a year)</p>

5

<p>Please re-read my post… There’s no anger. We’re happy our kid got accepted. </p>

<p>Just trying to find a rational reason to pay the bill</p>

<p>Once you add the cost of “everything” at 55k per year (which it will be as the price inflates) and the opportunity cost of that money, the family-student group will be easily 250k poorer than we would have been without university, and 250k
poorer than other seemingly pretty good options</p>

<p>I’m not rich, 13 years in the military (thus relatively little savings) but got out transition ed to a very decent mid management job. Extravagance is not my style I’ve purchased 1 new car in my life. A Honda…
So there is some income— I must be exactly on the edge in terms of income. But if you look at last year, paying for princeton will require a contribution equal to 38 percent of my takehome pay from 2012</p>

<p>But with 3 kids inconveniently spaced 4 year apart, ensuring I will never receive any financial aid from anyone (if princeton didn’t, I know no one will). 38 percent of your takehome for over a decade makes you consider other options…because that’s not a bill it’s a criminal sentence!!. At some point it makes you have to consider UCL or the full rides in the USA. </p>

<p>Anyway, no one walks in anyone else’s shoes. I just think of you have the luxury of thinking of princeton or MIT, don’t worry you can’t go wrong. If I was making 30k a year of course the decision is easy. If I made 350k a year of course thei decision is easy. I’m just sitting at the inflection point of the maximum take home % contribution required by princeton. </p>

<p>I think I’m in a situation where i could go wrong… Either by choosing princeton and blowing an enormous hole in the family’s finances for years to come, or by choosing against and limiting the kids options (although I must say, I’ve seen no objective evidence that the p degree is worth a marginal 250k npv in 2017 dollars). </p>

<p>So, I hope you can see its not impossible to be in my situation. Seems real to me anyway. The education system in the USA is actually my largest tax as a middle class taxpayer… One no one talks about. O</p>

6

<p>You could appeal to the financial aid office…</p>

7

<p>I see your point. Take a family earning $250,000 a year, less approximately 40% in taxes, leaving take home income of $150,000. $55k/year is 37% of that.</p>

<p>Is it worth it for your family? I can’t say. As you noted, no one walks in anyone else’s shoes.</p>

<p>While our family has received some FA, our expected contribution has been much greater than some cheaper alternatives would have been. Still, we have no regrets.</p>

<p>Our family is utilizing Princeton’s parent loan program, which offers a fixed or variable interest rate for a 14 year term. We opted for the variable rate, and are currently paying about 1.5%.</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> Parent Loan Program | PRINCETON UNIVERSITY - Office of Finance and Treasury](<a href=“http://finance.princeton.edu/how-to/tuition-student-billing-l/loan-options/princeton-parent-loan-pro/]Princeton”>http://finance.princeton.edu/how-to/tuition-student-billing-l/loan-options/princeton-parent-loan-pro/)</p>

<p>Congratulations to your kid, and to you for your parenting. And thank you for your service.</p>

<p>Best of luck with your decisions.</p>

8

<p>Thanks for the understanding comments…</p>

<p>I’ve told my child of course that we will contribute strongly financially to her education…We’ve told her she’s “earned” at a minimum the full published cost of a state school with her outstanding performance in high school and as a kid. We stretched that number a little bit for her to $150,000.</p>

<p>If she goes to a very good “free ride full boat” school, we’ll give her the 150k-- she’s earned it.</p>

<p>She has to figure out if having $150,000 in hand at graduation to buy an apartment and a car, and live debt-free while looking for a grad school-- with a good degree… is a better option than</p>

<p>Paying rent, riding the bus, and paying off $100,000 in debt – admittedly with a “great” degree…</p>

<p>It’s not so easy— and a position I thought more people would be in.</p>

<p>I’ve got her applying for the (very awesome looking) bridge year program – partly because it would be a awesome experience and partly because it would per her and her sister in college at the same time, saving our shared “family unit” an estimated $50,000. Which is a lot of money to me. Unfortunately they don’t make decisions on this until after the 1 May cutoff… </p>

<p>Argh-</p>

<p>The things you don’t know when you’re young… The 1 thing I could have done to cut college costs the most was have my kids in a bunch— preferably twins… To me that’s kind of insane. Why should someone with 3 kids gets hundreds of thousands of dollars more in aid because they were born close together than someone who has them spread out??</p>

9

<p>Was in similar situation last year, turned down two full tuition scholarships and one full ride to send my kid to Princeton at full pay. Would have never done it if it was about my college decision. You do seemingly irrational things when it’s about your child. It must be harder for you since you have three kids. I have only one. I don’t know if any study can definitively provide what you are looking for. At best, you will get some statistical results, but who knows if it applies to your child’s case? Honestly, I don’t know if I would have made the same decision if I had three kids like you. No matter what decision, I don’t think there is a wrong one as long as your kid understands it and tries her best at chosen school, with your full support. Best wishes to you.</p>

10

<p>You would need a crystal ball to answer your question.</p>

<p>A Princeton sociology professor – not an economics professor has a part answer to your question. Sorry, I cannot find the study but the professor found that Ivy League caliber admits that attend other schools have comparable careers after college. The professor might have been Thomas J. Espenshade.</p>

<p>This article shows that Princeton and Dartmouth graduates have the highest median pay at mid-career. [Colleges</a> That Help Grads Get Top Salaries - SmartMoney.com](<a href=“Spending & Saving - MarketWatch”>Spending & Saving - MarketWatch) </p>

<p>Most studies show that the major chosen by a student has a significant impact on their salary prospects after college. The best majors for mid-career salary are engineering, math, information technology, biology, etc. Students that choose a job on Wall Street will have a higher salary that students that choose social work. Part of the decision has to be her major and the relative strength of the departments at each university.</p>

<p>Princeton is a special place. Students and alumnae love it for emotional reasons – not rational reasons. More alumnae return to see their friends and classmates each year and contribute each year to the university than any other university in the country. </p>

<p>PtonGrad2000 summarized the feeling of many in his post: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/432489-all-things-i-learned-princeton-these-most-important.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/432489-all-things-i-learned-princeton-these-most-important.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Your family has to decide the value of being taught by Nobel Prize winner and Pulitzer Prize winners. Is there value to knowing classmates that become Supreme court justices or famous scientists? For a list of some famous professors and alumnae see [Princeton</a> University](<a href=“http://www.nndb.com/edu/549/000068345/]Princeton”>Princeton University) .</p>

<p>Best wishes.</p>

11

<p>We feel your pain. Our son opted for the full ride at a state university and walked away from more prestigious offers of acceptance with full pay from us. We are a single income family who has lived a financially conservative life and saved. For that reason our EFC is ridiculously high. We have a daughter two years behind our son that we also need to consider.</p>

<p>I will tell you that the relief we feel is tremendous now that we’ve made our decision. My son’s comment was that “all things happen for a reason.” He is right. I believe he will be where he should be. He will enter a university thrilled to get him. He’s received a sincere welcome and feels that this school really wants him, as opposed to the “you’re lucky you got in” vibe.</p>

<p>He will finish in four years, debt free. He can use the money we’ve saved for grad school, car, house, etc.</p>

<p>It is very liberating to let go of the prestige and potentially mounting debt. </p>

<p>Good luck to you and yours.</p>

12

<p>Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. </p>

<p>How much difference there is in the quality of education between a school like Pitt and Princeton, I can’t say. I have many relatives who went to Pitt, and they’ve all done well (all became PhD’s or MD’s). A bunch of them went to Pitt for free, as your child would, and it is great to come out with no debt.</p>

<p>I’m 30 years past graduation, and being able to put “is a graduate of Princeton University” on my web site and in my brochure does help me get work as a consultant at times. Has the name brand returned $100,000 in my career? Far more than that, and my degree cost only $30,000 total back when we used chisels to carve out papers in stone. Has it returned $250,000? Probably.</p>

<p>I’ve said at times that going to a Princeton, Harvard, Yale, or other elite school raises a person in the eyes of many to a level higher than they really deserve. The halo effect is powerful. </p>

<p>Other people benefit from the alumni network throughout their careers. I’ve benefited modestly from the alumni network, but the value has not been insignificant.</p>

<p>Other people get no benefit from the name brand or alumni network during their careers. </p>

<p>If your child is heading to grad school, the grad school’s name will be more important than the Princeton name, for the most part. The Princeton name and education may help your child get into a better grad school, however.</p>

<p>If your child heads to med school, the residency/fellowship program is the most important credential, and the undergrad degree will be unimportant.</p>

<p>If the target is Wall Street or Private Equity/VC, then an Ivy brand helps considerably. $250,000 is less than an annual bonus for many of my classmates. </p>

<p>About a fifth of my class earns over $500,000; some have amassed net worths of over $100-million. Some have been elected to Congress, become Governors, become Supreme Court Justices, run professional sports teams, and on and on. Whether that is due to the school’s education, the Princeton name or the students’ innate capacities, no one can tell you.</p>

<p>Work experience outdistances the school’s brand name after five to ten years. The Princeton brand does help get the earlier jobs, and does continue to help throughout the career, although it becomes far less of a factor. The major part of my job is finding and evaluating executives, so I’m speaking from the catbird seat. I can remember a client saying, “Look at his education,” when the candidate had an Ivy PhD, even though it was in a field unrelated to their industry, and their company was filled with brilliant PhD’s in a narrow biotech niche. The name brand of his PhD did raise him up in the employer’s eyes.</p>

<p>So it’s a very mixed bag. It depends on your child’s performance, career choice, some luck, and countless other factors to determine whether Princeton is worth an extra $250,000.</p>

<p>All of this is unimportant if your child will be happier at Pitt or will have trouble adjusting to being average at Princeton (it’s a humbling place for someone used to being perfect in every way, as most who are admitted are).</p>

<p>I hope I haven’t thoroughly confused you.</p>

13

<p>What does your daughter want to study? The Princeton vs. Pitt-for-free value really hinges on her interests and temperament.</p>

14

<p>@argh</p>

<p>Great thread. I have no idea where my son will be accepted to school next year, but we could certainly be in a similar situation of having full-rides available v.$55,000+ per year. Like another poster we only have <em>one.</em> Seems like that would make it easier to bite the bullet. If I had two more coming up, I would be asking myself, “Will I be willing/able to do this for the other two?” Obviously, impossible to answer since no one knows what the future holds. </p>

<p>All the best in your decision-making process.</p>

15

<p>Macro Econ would be her thing-- if any kid actually knows at 17. Go work for the ecb or IMF or something like that. </p>

<p>With 3 kids spread out, I face paying a full 4.8 years of take home pay for university… If course elite undergrad leads to elite grad. Which I’ve been clear I’m not paying for. </p>

<p>I’m in the donut hole of the education funding system — just enough pay so absolutely none of my dependents or educational expenses are deductible and so no aid is given. </p>

<p>Princeton of course has the best financial program. If I made 50,000 a year less, and my kid made it into (for instance) Carnegie Mellon, they would give no aid and a bill for almost 60k per year. That would be a no brainer-- just can’t afford it.</p>

<p>This is my first time through the process, but it seems to me that we as a nation are probably wasting a lot of human capital among the middle class student families who just can’t afford a top education even if they’ve shown they are capable. The educational resources flow to the top and bottom of the income distribution, for different reasons of course.</p>

16

<p>Hmm. Hard to turn down Princeton economics then. The quality of the education and the networking would be pretty much top of the line.</p>

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<p>Hey- I totally get where you are coming from. My husband was military, also we have 3 kids all spaced apart. We are very conservative, cars have over $170K, etc etc. I had hand-me down furniture or stuff from my husband when he was a bachlor…and we have been married almost 25yrs! Bought out first sofa just a few yrs ago!! </p>

<p>Last year, we had one in college and when we got back how much we were required to pay for 2nd son, the figures were crazy. 2nd son got into elite school and tuition for us was like $50k. Typically it is $55K or so. So the school (where most people get a lot of assistance and pay $38K average or so -per their website), we had to pay $50K plus the other tuition for out son $38K or so. That is 88K a year! We would not be able to pay all our bills and unfortunalty live in an expensive part of the USA. So yeah, the system does not work for people like us and I still am angry and have night mares. Both my kids got into great schools. they both ended up at state schools and as it was, even with less tuition, we had to take from savings and get loans. . First son will be graduating. He said he was so happy where he went. He had the option to take out a school loan if he wanted to go to the more elite school. He is an engineer and will get good $ once he gets a job. Second son, is happy where he is at. I even offered him to transfer to a more elite but he said no. He wanted to go to Cornell. The thing both did are internships to set them apart. Unilke you, I didnt offer the, $150K cause I just dont have it. We are mid-50 and yet one more to go to college in 3 yrs. We are far from retiring. Ive been talking to the youngest about ROTC since she is interested in medical.</p>

<p>But the system is flawed. It does not work for people like us. And one scarry part is all the people taking out loans…what is the future of America? Some of them can’t pay them back or get jobs. gee- hope my boys dont marry a girl with a sense-less degree and high loans and be stuck with debt that way…</p>

<p>good luck in your decision.</p>

18

<p>But I have to say this. If you make the decision to have more than one kid, then more than two kids, if that’s the cause of the problem it is something within your control for the most part.</p>

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<p>Forgive me if when I was making $1500 a month defending your butt in the middle east at age 24, the concept of financing my kids’ elite university 18 years later didn’t cross my mind.</p>

<p>My only regret is that we didn’t have twins, then the financing would be easy.</p>

20

<p>Sorry for the last post. I should know better than to ■■■■■-feed.<br>
Anyway, back on topic I did find one article that addresses the middle class “pay full for elite, or go to very good and graduate with $250k in your pocket”</p>

<p>[NYT:</a> Measuring College Prestige vs.](<a href=“http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/your-money/measuring-college-prestige-vs-price.xml]NYT:”>http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/your-money/measuring-college-prestige-vs-price.xml)</p>

<p>I still think it’s a much more difficult question than elite v. Elite</p>