I need words of comfort/advice please.

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Perhaps a particular name on the stone edifice draws too many.</p>

<p>I’ve read this a number of times, and I’m still trying to wrap my mind around it. I agree with the rest of the comments in musicprnt’s post, but I think this a rather pessimistic and inaccurate view of conservatory admissions, and seems to condemn both those that are there and those that don’t get in. </p>

<p>I’m still scratching my head. Maybe I’m misinterpreting what is being said.</p>

<p>Maybe there are a handful that have been steered, directed, pushed into a high level music path, may have (for want of a better term) a soloist mentality or aspire to a “x” level of professional success and all else be damned, but I in my experience the vast bulk “conservatory students” are consummate musicians in every sense of the world, and not just superb technicians.</p>

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<p>I was a little confused too violadad. My only experience with a conservatory orchestra is when I have heard the Rice Symphony and reports from others more knowledgeable about their sounds. They could not sound so wonderful if all were simply technicians. Plus, they all have to take the aural skills class and yes sight read and sing all the music, right along with DD. I sat in one of the classes during parent’s weekend and she might be able to sing it better, but most had a better grasp of the theory behind it than she did :slight_smile: Maybe some do not develop those skills until they get there. But Rice makes sure they have them before they leave. As for auditions to get in, I can’t speak for the instrumentalists experience but my understanding is that they also look for musicality, not just technical expertise in the selections.</p>

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<p>My experience with my son has a completely different slant because he is not performance stream (is a BFA in the equivalent of electronic composition/music technology, although students do audition, esp for the BMUS version of the degree) however he did say something the other day that resonates with parts of this discussion and he is presently in a music conservatory environment (albeit at a large university.) </p>

<p>He was musing about why a very very talented friend of his was rejected from the audition/interview process at his school when he himself had gotten in the year before and said something along the lines of:

McSon developed that idea somewhere and did not enter the SOM expecting to see his own “way” so fully reflected, yet there it is after a mere term.</p>

<p>It made clear to me that somewhere in that conservatory environment these things are being emphasized, which makes me happy because it will be the key to the success of the students because it is a highly transferable skill.</p>

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<p>I’m glad Violadad, that you found the same section puzzling. Having a kid at a high-level conservatory, the characterization kind of made me bristle. For example at Oberlin, where my son is a first year, the application and audition process were very rigorous, and not just from of “can you play” standpoint. I thought their application was one of the most complex, really asking beyond “Why Oberlin” questions to also question musical influences, and “if you couldn’t play music, what would you do?” I am sure that my son’s recommendations spoke to his ability to play well with others, which we all know is essential in jazz; but this is a kid who had a pond, but didn’t really know what his pond meant in relation to other other 49 ponds in the US. I am talking about NO competitions or awards prior to the application season.</p>

<p>I personally think the key to all our kids’ pursuit of music at a music school, wherever they choose to pursue it, is the passion that leads them to make the conservatory choice. I don’t know any student who came to the conservatory decision lightly. It is an odd world, which takes myriad forms from small standalone buildings to buildings on enormous campuses, and every iteration in-between. It is not for everyone. Some world-class teachers can be found in every environment, ( “big name” or not) often in multiple places, as they too pursue their love of music in a combined performing/teaching way. No matter where my son was admitted or denied, he would be in music school now, following his passion. The reputation of the school was secondary to his conservatory decision.</p>

<p>My son’s teachers had varying educational backgrounds, almost all of whom started out one place–Berklee and Texas–but couldn’t afford/chose not to continue, and ended up finishing their education elsewhere. They have been wonderful role models as far as I’m concerned, because they have chosen to reside in our city ultimately, after having successful traveling music careers, but still make music a focus while they teach, perform and act as Mr. Mom/home remodeler. They are HAPPY, productive people, and that has always been my goal for all my kids.</p>

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<p>There are certainly schools and teachers accepting students on the basis of flashy technique demonstrated in a short audition. Perhaps they hope to be able to teach them some of the other aspects of the art of music. Sometimes that works out and sometimes not.</p>

<p>From my daughter’s experience, I know that some pretty good schools are also accepting students who may still have some way to go on their technique (in her case because she switched instruments at the age of 13) but who show promise in other ways.</p>

<p>I think most music schools have students who become so focused on one particular aspect of their playing, or one particular type of music, or one particular career outcome that they fail to see the bigger picture and do not take advantage of the many other opportunities available to them. That is both their loss and ours. If the intent is to train artists, however, how can we do that without giving them the freedom to fail?</p>

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<p>This part of the post caught my eye. The kids described above will not be music majors. My kids were also in an excellent precollege program and youth orchestra. AND yes…they both took music theory and played in chamber music groups. They both sang as well…ear training was an integral part of their musicianship.</p>

<p>I guess what I’m saying is…those kiddos who view “music theory, ear training and for many of them, orchestra or chamber music, as an impediment, something to get through, something they frankly don’t seem to care about” are not likely to be the students who will pursue music as a career. Sorry, but my performer son actually LOVED all the aspects of music that related to his instrument playing. NONE were “impediments” to his musical growth or ability to better play his instrument…they were SUPPLEMENTS…and necessary ones. His best friends, also musicians, felt the same way.</p>

<p>Even DD who is not a music major but still plays her instruments…found these other things necessary to be a well rounded musician. </p>

<p>And just FYI…my kids were both big fish in little ponds for years. But they still had the drive to continually improve their playing.</p>

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<p>Everyone is coming down on Musicprnt, and saying that what he sees about <em>some</em> conservatory or pre-college students isn’t true, but as with everything, there is no black and white.</p>

<p>There certainly ARE some students, with incredible technical proficiency, who practice their repertoire 10 hours a day, and yes, some of these students lack “people skills”, “true musicality” etc. They just play with exceptional technical skills and many/most are admitted to good programs. I think it’s silly not to acknowledge that this happens. I also think there are some students who attend pre-college programs and do certain ensembles, not because they love it, but it is because it is what they are expected to do.</p>

<p>And we have talked on this board quite a bit, judgements regarding music school admissions are often made in a 10-20 minute audition, which can count for as much as 80% of the chance of getting in (good grades, ECs,scores, awards, essays, recommendations and the like receiving the other “20%”). It’s true that students applying to “regular” colleges are looked at more as a total person, and all the other aspects of their application are given more consideration. We can’t deny this, because we know it is true.</p>

<p>It’s also true, as everyone here has noted, that the kids who will really make it have excellent technical skills, but good flexibility, people skills, love of music, marketing skills, and the like. Some of the kids who are simply fantastic technicians of their instrument may not have the other components, and that may not be enough, out in the real world.</p>

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<p>Well, Allmusic, I chose not to answer musicprnt’s post because I felt I was too close to it, but I’ll take a stab. I didn’t read it as “this stuff happens sometimes” - I read it as “these are the students at conservatories.” I do have a student at conservatory, and I’m not seeing what musicprnt saw. In fact, I am kind of amazed at how, in just a 15 mintues audition, the schools get so much right. (I was also amazed at All State auditions years ago. How, year after year, a brief, blind audition was yielding up the same kids. Surely there is something they are hearing that us commoners don’t hear?) However, I have knowledge of only one conservatory, and really only one department within that school, and though I feel kind of defensive about it, I certainly can’t speak for every conservatory everwhere.</p>

<p>And having the experience of also have a child at a non-conservatory, I will say that some of the things musicprnt mentions also happen as often or more at the non-conservatory - because the teachers have less experience, or because the bar is lower - I don’t know. </p>

<p>The interesting thing to me, though, is how this process continues into the workplace for musicians. My son continues to take audition after audition, often plunking down big bucks for travel and hotel, for his 15 minute grab at the brass ring. We have to hope the panel knows what to listen for.</p>

<p>And guess what? He has seen folks advance who have some of the problems musicprnt sees. Folks who play accurate, but can’t be depended upon to show up on time, or lack people skills. (I would say that musicality is sometimes lacking. I don’t know that theory, music history, or sight-reading skills are lacking. Those seem to be pretty well covered by most curriculums.) On the other hand, he has seen some fantastic, deserving musicians also advance.</p>

<p>I share musicprnt’s frustration at the “unfairness” of it all, at least how it seems from the peanut gallery. My kid is so much better - why isn’t he employed yet? :wink: </p>

<p>My quibble, then, is not whether it happens at all, but whether it happens exclusively in conservatories, and that it always happens in conservatories.</p>

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<p>Rice website has a fantastic section on navigating music careers, auditioning, etc. <a href=“R-3 Repository :: Home”>R-3 Repository :: Home; In one section on opera audition repertoire selection the comment is made that most of the impressions that will carry the decision are made within the first 10 measures. His point being pick your best piece to start and make sure it starts with your best sound. I imagine it is the same for instrumentalists. These are folks that have been doing this for years and maybe they make some mistakes, but they go with the odds.</p>

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<p>Just like in Malcolm Gladwell’s book “Blink” – it is entirely possible that the highly trained can tell most of what they need to know almost ‘intuitively’ in the first 10 measures.</p>

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<p>The “thin slice”. I’ve been told repeatedly that the panel will know within the first 30 seconds.</p>

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<p>I haven’t been on this thread since last week (I spend my entire weekend shuffling kids to orchestra, classes - french horn, voice, and ballet, and this weekend was our local MTA’s piano honors recital with two of mine playing, phew.</p>

<p>At voice lessons, I talked with our kids’ teacher, an Eastman grad. She was accepted at Julliard, Eastman, Peabody, Oberlin and Duquesne and chose Eastman for the theory dept. I told her about this thread, and my own eldest’s current ambitions, and she laughed and said as a soprano everyone pushed her to think “oh opera” at some regional or national company was her only option. Her quote:</p>

<p>“If you only pursue a symphony or opera company career, you will spend the next 40 years of your life playing or singing the exact same 20 - 30 pieces, and almost nothing else.”</p>

<p>She is pursuing a degree in inner city music ed, right now, in addition to teaching, and she performs all over 3 states. she records alot too. She said she loves collaborating and that maybe she sings with a group that is not her thing, but that it is fun to explore a new musical genre all the time, and to meet fellow musicians who are creating new music.</p>

<p>It was a great and fun conversation. She said her advice to my daughter is to do as much accompaniment work as possible, and to work on collaborating and music theory. </p>

<p>She is an example of someone out creating the jobs right now.</p>

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<p>I figured this would raise some hackles, it was why I was careful to say it wasn’t gospel, it was my view of what I have seen or heard and that it wasn’t gospel. I also was careful to say that this wasn’t a unversal, as in all students at all conservatories, etc. If some conservatories focus on the whole student, more power to them, if they base their admittance on the audition and other factors, much the better (and for Binx, I wasn’t intending to single out stand alone conservatories, I was really talking about high level music programs in general, I was using conservatories as a general term for this, which isn’t technically correct). It was a personal view, based on the world as I have so far experienced it, on what I see of the classical music world that I have had exposure to (granted, as a non musician, but also talking to working, high level musicians). </p>

<p>People assumed I was saying that all schools are bad, that all they do are look for the fireworks, etc, and that wasn’t my point (and I thought I was careful to qualify that, that programs and admissions are not monolithic) or that I was somehow attacking the students who are there, assuming they all don’t deserve to be there, and I never said that. There are a lot of students at music programs I am talking about who are sincere, dedicated musicians, who love the music, who grab any opportunity to play, etc, a large number, and I wasn’t implying that didn’t exist. What I was saying was that there in my view/viewpoint, a lot of kids who are one dimensional, and to me the fact that those kids get in in not small numbers tells me that technical proficiency seems to weigh more then other factors. Maybe the people who voted to admit them think you can teach musicality and musical expression and admitted them on those grounds, as some people pointed out, I am not sure (though I personally don’t believe musicality like that can be taught, the love for the music, the understanding of it in that way, YMMV).</p>

<p>I used those to frame the original question I asked, not to knock music programs, and that was given the reality of the music world today, are music schools training students for the world that is out there. I have heard this question asked by people like Joseph Pelosi and by others at high level music programs, and often the answer they tell themselves is no, that they need to change things (which is a good thing), that this isn’t the 1940’s or 50’s…</p>

<p>Again, I apologize if the thought I was knocking all schools, all programs, all students, I quantified my words,but it must have hit a nerve (which I can understand, especially for parents with kids in music programs right now, it sounds like I am lumping them in with ‘all students’, which I didn’t do deliberately). I was seeking to open a discussion, not knock any particular school or program, that’s all.</p>

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<p>Suzukimom-
That teacher sounds like someone with the right attitude, I am glad there are plenty of people out there like that (and there are, I have met more then a few of them). My hope is that music schools and teachers are reflecting her view more and more, rather then the teachers I believe who are teaching to a past (that may or may not ever have existed either), that if you come out of a high level program there will just be some high level regional orchestra or big orchestra just waiting to give you a job, or zillions of opportunities to become a hotshot soloist, and that just isn’t the reality (if it ever was…). If I met the person you were talking about, it would be great to buy her a couple of drinks (alchoholic or non) and talk to her:)</p>

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<p>Well, this conversation does have me re-thinking some music camp decisions, and I want to make sure all 3 of my kids get in programs that have collaboration and theory as strong grounding points. And I do see some of what you are saying in the piano world, musicprnt. My kids compete, but I notice as we move more and more out of the suzuki world, there is an emphasis at competitions on playing that one Romantic repertoire, and my kids who love modern music are feeling pushed to learn pieces they don’t like to get good comments let alone a prize. I may pull all of them out of competitions if this trend continues. Come to think of it, how many prizes for high schoolers involve collaboration or composing and performance? </p>

<p>I have found this conversation really helpful, have brought it up with several teachers - all performance majors themselves, and I can see it has helped my kids, even, in terms of clarifying goals and commitments in their study. So I am glad this conversation is taking place.</p>

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<p>Not my intent, and taken in context (as I did) from post # 40, the comment I quoted did raise a hackle and some confusion on my part. </p>

<p>Now, in rereading the section from post #33 through #40, I see that the comment I reacted to was really a continuation of the early discussion, and expanded on some points made previously by musicprnt. In that respect, it makes perfect sense as the earlier post has far more “qualifiers” than the followup.</p>

<p>Yep, I agree in principal, and would say that for the most part musicprnt and I are of like mind. </p>

<p>It’s not the first time I’ve scratched my head over something musicprnt has posted. Probably won’t be the last. </p>

<p>At least we’re not throwing old chunks of rosin at each other. :D</p>

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<p>This discussion reminds me of other recent threads in which there was an analogy of music performance to sports. From my experience, I have found that for kids taking piano lessons, there is has been a prominent, if not necessarily large, subset of families and teachers who are very focused on competitions and awards, even from a young age. In my opinion, there are similarities to how these students learned and prepared for these competitions to students involved in competitive gymnastics, ice skating, etc. In the elementary and middle school ages, at least, I noticed a tendency for the winners of the most awards to play faster than the others (even when the piece was not meant to be played so fast) but without a single missed note, and sometimes, even with dramatic flourish (e.g., swaying, dramatic hand and arm movements, etc.) </p>

<p>But it turns out that most of the time, the kids who were so intensely competitive with piano and “winning” were that way with academics too and now that it is time for college, are choosing to major in premed, math, engineering etc. and not piano or any other area of music. </p>

<p>Some teachers and families of pre-high school students prefer those competitions in which judges made comments and ratings/levels with regard to the performance rather than the kind where there is one winner and trophy/prize. I know a lot of people here will think competition is a part of being a musician, but I think it has been overdone in some communities for kids studying piano and may in some cases reduce an intrinsic love of playing piano.</p>

<p>I think participation in chamber music, accompaniment, etc will help a serious piano student’s prospects down the road and also may contribute to a greater humility and team player attitude.</p>

<p>I also think it is a good idea if kids studying piano are encouraged to understand and develop an interest in the background (e.g., composer, historical period) of the piece that is being studied. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard piano students playing even advanced repertoire who appear to know next to nothing about these things when I ask them about the music they are playing.</p>

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<p>I agree with Rigaudon completely. Those “flying fingers” tend to predominate in the pre-high school set, and continue for some through the high school years for certain types of students. When my son played Chopin’s “Minute Waltz” in middle school, he aimed for exactly 60 seconds, or even faster. It was a race against the clock, because at that age, faster meant better, in his eyes. Fortunately, he outgrew that mentality, and learned extensively about phrasing, thoughtful interpretation, voicing, etc. in high school, and has developed so much more maturity now, in college. And yes, I think accompaniment, chamber, etc. helped him develop a great deal, as did the collaborative nature of jazz (his other “side”).</p>

<p>Where I live, there is a specific kind of student, AND teacher, who go for speed and technique (and lots of competition), above all else. We quickly identified that genre of teacher and ran fast in the other direction!</p>

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<p>Allmusic-</p>

<p>Your impression is the same as mine, a lot of it depends on the teacher. There are many teachers out there who look at competitions with mixed mind, while they do offer performance opportunities and the ability to work under pressure, they also, in the words of more then a few teachers I have spoken to, create a culture of ‘playing to win competitons’. Even at the college level, in the 'serious competitions (and here I am talking about the violin) there are mixed views of them (there a high level violin teachers and peformers who refuse to judge competitions, because they believe they are doing the wrong thing), some competitions are thought to be based on performance, others are viewed as being exercises in technical fireworks,based on who wins…</p>

<p>With violin it seems to be the same as what people are saying about piano, many of those who go the competition crazy circuit don’t end up going into music (and many of the parents would not want their kids to go into music, they see it as a hobby, and winning competitions, as good fodder for a resume for a top academic school…this I have gotten from the horse’s mouth over the years). Again, as I suspect with piano, it is a combination of the teacher and the parent’s attitude how competitions are viewed. Plus there may be cultural issues as well, in some cultures success is determined by exams/competitions, where winning the competition gets you to the next round, which is at times true in music, but not entirely. Winning a competition can get you performance opportunities and possibly a recording deal, for example, but winning the competition is not necessarily a predictor of success (piano is a bit different then let’s say violin, because of the nature of the piano world as I understand it, competitions seem to be a lot more valuable in pushing a career, whereas in violin and cello there are plenty of top violinists who never even went to competitions, let alone won one)> </p>

<p>Obviously, it depends on the competition. Some competitions are like sporting events, you go there, are judged, and someone is picked the winner (many concerto competitions are like that). Others judge, but give feedback, and many teachers find that more valuable for their students (makes sense to me)… </p>

<p>No hard feelings violadad, I understand completely (okay, I was running for my copy of the viola joke book, I admit it, but all is forgiven now <em>lol</em>). It is hard to trace threads on here, that is for sure…:)</p>

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<p>The joke was (and it really wasn’t very funny) that you could tell these teachers a mile away. They were always “shushing” everyone or glaring around when THEIR students warmed up or performed, but then they whispered and commented on other students while they played! It happened far too many times to be coincidental (and my son’s teachers corroborated my impressions from other recitals and such). </p>

<p>Not only are the students and their parents competitive—their teachers are as well!</p>