I wish I weren't Asian

College Confidential Community
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<p>Wow, AdOfficer. Chill down a bit, eh? :p</p>

<p>I understand your rightful frustration at what I'll admit are somewhat inflammatory posts, but I'd hate to see this escalate, because as an Asian-American girl, I have some of the same sentiments they do.</p>

<p>We're mostly kids (albeit some of the brightest, if I may say so, based on all the cowing stat threads I've seen :)), the lot of us, and I think we are understandably frustrated with the admissions process. We don't know the criteria in these selections, and when we see the discrepancies between some of the scores and our own, knowing the effort we've put in - well, you can see how we could become somewhat disillusioned.</p>

<p>However, you are right. If nothing else, I'd hate to see a campus wholly dominated by Asian students - where's the diversity? If we measure on scores alone, we'd put at a disadvantage some of our brightest, innovative minds, as well as those who are not equipped the same way, financially and in other ways.</p>

<p>As for creativity, though...I'm slightly offended that you would insinuate that Asians are creative (or perhaps that was someone else further upthread?). I happen to think I'm quite creative! LOL. :D I do know what you mean, though. High stats and laundry lists can often mean a student is quite "cookie-cutter", and advancements are more often attributed to innovation, so we need a nice diversity. Two heads are, after all, better than one, and heads, in this case, are thought processes.</p>

<p>As for African Americans and Hispanics (not Latinos - unless we're talking about South America, and not Spanish speakers? Er...), I agree that they don't "know" the culture as well, on the whole. The latter is easier to explain - they've got less of an assimilationist culture when they enter the United States, and with a higher population overall, they don't need to conform to the culture as much as Asians, for example, do. As for African Americans, they take pride in their sub-culture to the point of not wanting "white" culture to impinge on it. Generalizations, of course, and hardly the case for all, or even a good majority, but it does go some way to explain why Asians tend to understand cultural questions better - many of us do go out of our way to learn the American way of life and fit into society.</p>

<p>Besides, my opinion is that if you are well-qualified, hard-working, and bright, you'll succeed in life by your own merits, since college admission is hardly the only opportunity to present itself in your life. I said as much in a previous post, but with a whimsical tone - now I want to clarify that that is what I believe. Idealistic? Maybe. But hey, I'd take that over complaining any day. :D</p>

<p>Am I irked by affirmative action? On a personal level, you bet! No matter how infinitesmally small an effect it has on admissions chances, it does skew it against me in some way, and in this high-stakes (yes, high-stakes - I'm not that foolhardy and blind) game in which every little bit counts, I'm going to be frustrated, and reasonably so. But I see the reason behind it, and so long as the non-URM groups continue to be accepted at a reasonable level (hey, in terms of ratios, Asians are over-represented, and I acknowledge that :p), I'll roll with the punches. :D</p>

<p>D'ya think that this is the right attitude for a "disadvantaged" Asian to be taking?</p>

<p>Anyway, AdOfficer, don't take it too hard, nor view us as being hard-minded; we're venting, and you, more than anyone else, really, should understand why.</p>

<p>I have to admit, I'm appalled by some of what has been posted, though. Way to make them think better of us, guys. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>BTW, what university/college do you work at, AdOfficer? I didn't see you announced on the featured discussion list.</p>

<p>EDIT: fabrizio, you go start that civil rights group! Every group needs one to attain an equilibrium in what you hear about rights! I'll be the first to join you (and no, I'm not being sarcastic).</p>

<p>However, as for African-Americans, there needs to be group preference. Imagine it this way - if the tests and scores were more geared toward their thought processes, wouldn't you want a nudge up, and for the diversity to remain, so as to properly forward humanity?</p>

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<p>
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As far as the "extent" to which I make it out, Drs. Bowen and Bok themselves state that if group preferences were removed, then the percentage of Blacks at elite universities would drop significantly. It's on pages 50 and 51, if I remember correctly.

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<p>They also go on to say:

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Selective schools attract highly talented minority candidates. Numerical measures of academic qualification (principally SAT scores and high school grades) play an important part in the sorting and sifting of applicants to selective schools, but they are by no means the only factors considered. The myth of pure merit, held and celebrated by many, would have us believe that these institutions want only the "book smart, test smart" students, and that racial preferances are interfering with the precise science such a criterion implies. (page 51-52)

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<p>and on pages 352 and 353:</p>

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We next tested whether blacks were as likely as whites to attend the most selective schools for which they were qualified...89 percent of blacks and 90 percent of whites attended the most selective schools to which they were admittied.

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<p>And this, later on page 353:</p>

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Since balcks are overrepresented in the low-SES category and underrepresented in the high-SES category, any effect that SES has on application or attendance patters might persist as a racial difference even in a "race-neutral" world.

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<p>what the hell ?</p>

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<p>Drs. Bowen and Bok make those conclusions from a very unrepresentative sample of colleges and universities.</p>

<p>There are rather large differences in size between the three groups used.</p>

<p>AdOfficer says this is irrelevant, but it doesn't take a doctoral level statistics class to know that we cannot attribute a change to one variable if another variable was also changed.</p>

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<p>What is sad is how many of the URMs who gain acceptance to these top colleges are fairly wealthy, and at the very least, middle class. If colleges really wanted to practice AA, they would remove the "race" checkbox and replace it with one asking for "income," although that too is inaccurate; in Silicon Valley, ~$30K/yr. (the national average) would just about leave you on the street. In the end, the essays, and not a checkbox or two, are where a student should explain his or her background.</p>

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<p>The fact is, there are lifeless, grind-y overachievers with a combination of insane pushing by their parents and self-pressure of ALL ethnicities. Out of the three Asian kids in my grade, two of them are Chinese, and two of them fit that stereotype to a tee. They are both the children of immigrants who work in chemistry and computer science, respectively. Both are like two years ahead in math, study for the SATs to an insane extent, and both practice piano more than humanly possible. Neither of them has any life plan. One does track, one does wrestling; neither is outstanding. One of them, who has more of a social life, is vice-president of the Community Service Club simply for college reasons. Both are funny and intelligent people who I believe have been *****ed up by the kind of parental pressure that would drive anyone insane. The fact is, that type of student is represented among all races; there are just an outsized proportion of Asians in that group of students.</p>

<p>I'm Jewish, and both my grandfathers were scholarship students, to Harvard and Yale, respectively, who grew up quite poor to uneducated immigrant parents. However, I've always felt alot of the pressure they were subjected to was different than that with upper middle-class Asian kids in the 'burbs. They both had "life plans" to pull their family out of poverty through education, and placed a high value on it in general. Not that this doesn't apply to some Asian students, it just doesn't apply to those I've witnessed in my surroundings.</p>

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<p>This thread has become a mess. Now I know why colleges prepare their public statements for hours before releasing them. :)</p>

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<p>PrescitedEntity - I'm really not taking this too seriously...just want you guys to have as much accurate information as possible ;) But I am glad to see you guys being so passionate about this topic - it's important! Also, I haven't mentioned what school I work at because I don't think it's terribly appropriate here - I'm not representing the institution here but my own perspective and experiences...hope you understand! However, if I can be of help in general to any of you, I'd be happy to help answer your questions! And I'm happy to see that several of you on this forum have also posted in my school's - we're lucky to have such a bright bunch of kids like you interested! Oh, and sorry if you misunderstood the "creative intelligence" comment - I did not say that Asian-Americans aren't creative...what I did say was that white- and Asian-Americans - in general - do better on test that are purely measures of analytical skills while many other groups test better - in general - on other forms of testing, like those that measure creative intelligence. Of course, there are students who do well on all types of testing! Sorry if my wording confused anyone! If you're interested, check out Robert Sternberg's work in this area! </p>

<p>Fabrizio - I agree with you that we in admissions are very, VERY, VERY concerned with "fit" and helping you find the best place for you and selecting students who are a good "fit" for our institutions. Thus, if an URM student has a 2400 SAT but is not a good fit for my institution they will not be admitted! Remember, "fit" is not only about stats and being able to do the work - it's also about how you'll take advantage of the particular programs and opportunities at a particular institution, what unique perspectives you may bring to the campus, and how you'll contribute to life and learning on a particular campus. I just interviewed a student, for example, who is at the top of his class and has 2350 on his SATs, but after meeting him and talking to him about what kind of learner he is and what kinds of opportunities he's looking for and WHY he's looking for those opportunities, it was clear that he probably isn't a good fit for my institution...thus, in my interview write-up, I said this! Considering most of the kids who apply here are at the top of their classes and have strong testing, what came out in his interview (and what will probably come out in his application - they usually reflect each other pretty well) is going to inform the readers and committee that he isn't a good "fit" and he won't be admitted. And he comes from an URM background. </p>

<p>With respect to your arguments that the "size variable" is important in Bowen and Bok's work, I'm still not getting this. Size was controlled for in their multivariate regressions, but it isn't the key variable in the study...that was selectivity, which is how they grouped schools in order to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges, as they are studying the effect affirmative action has on selectivity at academically-similar schools. To quote them: "These colleges and universities are not, however, at all representative of American higher education. They were not intended to be. All of them share the attribute of being academically selective...The large size and census-like character of the database, the strong similarities among the institutions IN CURRICULA AND ADMISSIONS STANDARDS (with many overlapping applications for admission), and the ability to form coherent clusters of institutions (DEFINED BY DEGREE OF SELECTIVITY AND TYPE OF SCHOOL) combine to permit a closer, more intensive examination of black-white differences in outcomes than is possible in studies using national samples of individuals from a large and more diverse array of institutions" (preface of the Shape of the River, XXX). Indeed, they controlled for selectivity by using selective schools because they are measuring the effects of affirmative action on selectivity of different groups of students. A large school with an average incoming freshman GPA of 3.9 and a small school with an average incoming freshman GPA of 3.9 have the same average incoming freshman GPA; a large school with an average freshman SAT score of 2200 and a small school with an average freshman SAT score of 2200 have the same average incoming freshman SAT score. Whether the schools were public or private, large or small, in New England or Texas doesn't matter - these were not variables in the regressions - the selectivity indicators were because this is what they were studying. </p>

<p>whoamg - socioeconomic status is another part of affirmative action policy in college admissions. If a student comes from a particularly disadvantaged background socioeconomically, we definitely take this into account. That's why a lot of schools are partnered with a program called Questbridge, which helps highly selective colleges like Williams, Oberlin, Stanford, Princeton, and others identify highly-talented, low-income high school students. Check out their website...questbridge.org. You're assertion that many of the URMs who gain acceptances to these top colleges are fairly wealthy, or at the very least middle class" is a common misconception and not accurate. At some schools that are need-sensitive, this is true, but for the schools that are need-blind in particular, including where I work, this is far from true. Here's a clip from one of my previous posts, btw: "For example, over 50% of the students who are at Brown University are receiving need-based grant aid; this is a dramatic increase from the 37% that received need-based grant aid under a decade ago. At Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Williams, Rice, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Pomona, Columbia, and Grinnell, these numbers are similar." I hope this is encouraging...at a lot of these schools (even the need-sensitive ones), the largest line-item in their annual budgets is financial aid! </p>

<p>On a very personal note, I have to say that I understand how everyone can take this personally...as a white dude looking at colleges (WAY back in early-90s), I did see affirmative action as reverse-discrimination in a way - but I was only looking at it as if it had a profound effect on me. Now that I have a macro view of a lot of the issues surrounding college admissions (like systemic prejudice, racism, classism, sexism, etc...,) I appreciate the importance of such policies. Affirmative action doesn't have the profound personal effect on individual non-URM students that most think it does. On the contrary, it has a minute effect, if any at all. And outside of the most selective schools in this country, it absolutely has no effect on these students because most colleges and universities in this country don't have the luxury of large applicant pools and have to admit the vast majority of their applicants to enroll the class they want to...Keep in mind that there are only about 30-40 colleges in the country that admit under 30% of their applicants - the other 4500 are admitting way more than that. Any student being admitted to a highly selective school IS qualified academically to do the work - we'd never admit someone and set them up for failure. But they are also qualified to add to the life of the campus in ways that those who are denied admission cannot or perhaps would not. That doesn't mean these denied students aren't great, because my bet is that they are. There's just too many of you applying to all the same schools!</p>

<p>I hope my posts have shed some light on this topic for you guys...best of luck. Now back to reading more about you in your apps!</p>

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<p>
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BTW--I'm also suprised by how vehemently some of the CCer's on this thread attacked AdOfficer, when he was just giving us a different perspective. I guess it is not something they wanted to hear. That's a shame.

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<p>It is no longer a surprise for anyone who has visited College Confidential since its creation. Every year, the same refrain is played again, and often by the same agitators masquerading under new identities. The source of information of the "erroneous entitlement crowd" is also the same hackneyed cesspool: a number of sites that shine with their biased and poorly researched "information" and the relentless work of a mentally unstable New Jersey defrocked physician who has been banned from every reputable education forum, except for one known for its vulgarity and lack of controls. </p>

<p>There is never a debate; it is a mere attempt by the deaf and blind to repeat the same non-sense so many times hoping one allegation would become ... true.</p>

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<p>I'm Asian and i'm terrible at math. I got a 590 on my SAT I Math section. it's nice to break the stupid stereotypes.</p>

<p>oh, and i want to major in acting.</p>

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<p>Jeez. I had no idea stereotypes were taken so seriously. But I shouldn't be surprised, considering I am a math nerd.</p>

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First of all, racism <em>does</em> exist in this country - and globally. Personally, I'd rather be Asian in North America, than North American in Asia.</p>

<p>Next, I'm a white woman - just so we get that out of the way.</p>

<p>Third, all this complaining about being "hurt" because you're Asian fails to take in the entire picture. Do you think that highly-qualified whites don't get rejected? Do you think that URMs never get rejected? If so, you're wrong. You're promoting an ethnocentric view that doesn't take into account admissions as a whole. Yeah, Asians will be rejected with perfect scores, just as whites will be. Is it fair? Probably not, but there are limited spaces at the top universities. Not everyone can win a spot.</p>

<p>Next, first generation immigrants (Asian or otherwise) often have an incomplete understanding of how US universities work. Because other countries admit students solely on the basis of entrance scores, immigrant parents tend to emphasize this with their children. For them, scores and grades are everything - and getting into the "best" university means automatic success - because that's what they know. Unfortunately, that is not true in the US. We value individualism and innovation and initiative. If that comes across in your application, it can <em>overcome</em> not-perfect SAT scores and grades. If it doesn't, those scores and grades <em>lose</em> value. Because of the nature of our culture, that Harvard degree is worth a lot, but it certainly doesn't guarantee success. For example, some of the most famous entrepreneurs in this country have undergraduate degrees from places unheard of abroad - and sometimes even within the country. If you have great SAT scores, but go to Haverford instead of Harvard, or Lehigh instead of Yale, you are NOT at a disadvantage.

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<p>I'm Asian-American (born in US, lived and studied in other countries & US)
I read all the posts for several days ... here's the only post that most concerns me.</p>

<p>MOMWAITINGFORNEW wrote that
[quote]
First of all, racism <em>does</em> exist in this country - and globally. Personally, I'd rather be Asian in North America, than North American in Asia.

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Yes it's true first part. For the second part, I don't know what ur saying. Are you trying to say Asian in Asia are more racist than American in America? or what else? I'm not sure there.</p>

<p>We, as American, stereotypes / prejudice too much. Everyone of us, except that lots of us don't realize that. You wrote

[quote]
Because other countries admit students solely on the basis of entrance scores, immigrant parents tend to emphasize this with their children

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Have you been to all other countries and studying their admission process? if not, don't say other countries admit students solely on basis of scores.

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For them, scores and grades are everything - and getting into the "best" university means automatic success - because that's what they know. U

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are you representing all the immigrant families? or are you just talking base on ur experience and what you see? if that's the case, you shouldn't include "for them" like you know what they say.</p>

<p>I just pick an example of the post because there are too many, I know that we all are prejudice one way or another, we just don't realize. I hope you don't stereotype and put urself into the stereotype that some admission people were saying in early posts. furthermore, I hope that admission process can be fair (but it can never be). You're right, there are plenty of school to choose, if ur good enough, you can find at least one. I know ur not racist, but please don't stereotype. And for those who are racist in America ... I don't know what to say but you deserve to be beaten to dead [by a baseball bat or something like that]. I would love to run over some for a better america. CHEERS!</p>

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<p>In addition, for those who stereotype immigrant Asian as math & science nerds, please think a little bit. Most Asian immigrants are math & science majors because, well let's see:
1) when ur coming to a western country with completely different culture and everything from Asia, the only thing you recognize is the NUMBERS & math stuff, and that's the only thing you do well, would you want to focus more on that?
2) ur coming from an Asian country and have no knowledge of western culture whatsoever, would you wanna major in politics or humanity or law or literature ... something that completely new to you where other kids had 18 years of head start?
Just b/c a large %tage of Asian here major in science & math related doesn't mean they all are. You must realize that there are all kinds of majors in Asia. THink logically!</p>

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<p>
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Yes it's true first part. For the second part, I don't know what ur saying. Are you trying to say Asian in Asia are more racist than American in America? or what else? I'm not sure there.

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<p>I think that's pretty much what's being said. And though I hesitate to say that she's right...she's probably right. My experiences in Japan, and my knowledge of Asia in general, point me in that direction. Though I must admit that my concept of "Asia" is largely Northeast Asia, and I cannot say that the same holds true for Southeast Asia or the Sub-Continent. It may not.</p>

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<p>Not more racist, chaoses, but more ethnocentric - and I speak only of my experiences in Japan and Taiwan, and of conversations I've had with Chinese nationals. Those societies are simply not as diverse as America's, and therefore non-Asians have a difficult time breaking into mainstream society.</p>

<p>The people in those countries are extremely friendly and helpful to foreigners, but foreigners/whites/blacks/Latinos have a really tough time making the transition from guest to permanent resident.</p>

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<p>If anyone wants to read an interesting example of this, check out Debito.org. Very informative explanation of what it takes to become Japanese...and the challenges that follow.</p>

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<p>I didn't have time to read the whole thread (wow, 14 pages), so forgive me if I misunderstood the general intent or some people's statements). I have two personal experience stories to share:</p>

<p>I have a friend at another school, wealthy, African-American, poor stats, very intelligent but did not work hard and as a result had so-so SATs and a comparatively bad (21/200ish) rank. He was very popular and I'm certain had great teacher recommendations, but he did not write his essays until the very last minute. He applied to Yale RD last year and got in over my other white friend (hardworking, sporty, not nearly as wealthy, 5/200ish rank, super SATs, but quite shy) who applied SCEA.</p>

<p>However, I have another friend who is Asian. She wrote amazing essays; I know because she spent her whole summer agonizing over them, sending them to me by mail for suggestions. She had great grades, but iffy SAT scores. She wasn't too involved EC-wise (generic piano-playing and club joining, almost no volunteering and no jobs). She was wealthy. She got in SCEA over a legacy and a URM (well, a half-URM, but essentially a URM).</p>

<p>I know I didn't give the whole picture of stats, recommendations, essays here, but these two examples probably speak for themselves. Colleges seem to take who they want. They sometimes make mistakes; it's impossible that they don't make ANY mistakes. Xiggi gave me some advice in the Parent's Forum that I'm going to try my hardest to believe:</p>

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Trust the system and trust yourself!

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<p>What else can you do?</p>

<p>I just wanted to add briefly (PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS, DO NOT ATTACK ME, I JUST WANT TO SAY SOMETHING) that Japanese, WWII, Manzanar, Korematsu v. US...</p>

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<p>“Interestingly, according to several sources of educational research (including my own original research from graduate school), a higher proportion of wealthier African-American and Latino students are represented in "elite" colleges than their poorer peers (meaning there are more wealthier black and Latino students at these schools than poorer black and Latino students)”</p>

<p>“You're assertion that many of the URMs who gain acceptances to these top colleges are fairly wealthy, or at the very least middle class" is a common misconception and not accurate.”</p>

<p>Both statements are from AdOfficer, and they contradict each other.</p>

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<p>Actually, the definition of middle class, at least here on CC, is far higher than the average. Middle class here usually means between 80-160k...more affluent than not.</p>

<p>Likewise, wealthy Asians and whites have a higher proportion of affluent kids than low-income ones as well...at many selective colleges.</p>

<p>It is not a function of ethnicity (or gender, etc...) it's a function of who applies where....and those that have the resources will sometimes be better informed by their HS, GC, Parents, etc...</p>

<p>The statements are not contradictory...</p>

<p>The proportion of Blacks and Latinos who are affluent at the more selective colleges is greater than when looking at other schools.</p>

<p>When looking at the whole higher education system, the proportions fall.</p>

<p>A macro versus micro view...of college admissions.</p>

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<p>The statements are contradictory.</p>

<p>In the first paragraph cited by bomgeedad, AdOfficer says that most of the Blacks and Hispanics at elite universities are wealthy. In the second paragraph, he says that the assertion that most of the "under-represented" minorities are wealthy is false.</p>

<p>Unless he has defined what it means to be wealthy or given ranges like you did (ie. the quotes lack full context), the statements contradict each other.</p>

<p>I fail to see how your explanation explains how the statements are not contradictory.</p>