I wish I weren't Asian

<p>Actually, to determine what the context is...the question should be directed at AdOfficer...since, his definition and context as he understands it might be different than the assumtions we make when reading a post of his...</p>

<p>Less selective colleges have a smaller porportion of middle-to-high income versus low-income URMs than do highly competitive schools, when comparing the two subsets (selective versus less-selective).</p>

<p>When looking at the highly selective (predominently private) institions, the affluent URM porportions are greater in the subset comparatively than in the less selective ones and as a whole (considering all the colleges in the US).</p>

<p>It's a whole system versus subset comparison. </p>

<p>The information fits what we know about most public and private schools outside of the most desirable schools (second part), and the subset of the top ones where the relationship is different (first part).</p>

<p>Like anything else, it is not an all or nothing proposition or a simple yes/no dicotomy. Hence, the many modifiers. It's how one choses to define the debate...</p>

<p>Two keys:</p>

<p>In the first paragraph cited by bomgeedad, AdOfficer says that there are more wealthy Blacks and Hispanics than poor Blacks and Hispanics at these elite universities.</p>

<p>In the second paragraph, he says the assertion that most of the "under-represented" minorities who are admitted to top colleges are wealthy is false.</p>

<p>Contradictory.</p>

<p>So the question is, then: Is the definition of elite and top colleges the same or different.</p>

<p>For me, while UMichigan may be a top school, I would not classify it as an elite college for several reasons...(before anyone flames me, it's just an opinion).</p>

<p>Here's a graphic from NYT. I know we're singling out ethnicity (as do most AA posts on CC), but sometimes we forget that AA does affect gender representation and a move towards equality...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/23/business/24gap_CA1_ready.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/23/business/24gap_CA1_ready.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Program Widens School Funding Gap, Report Says
Rich States Are Found to Get More Than Poor Ones in $13 Billion Effort to Aid Low-Income Students</p>

<p>By Amit R. Paley
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 21, 2006; Page A04</p>

<p>
[quote]
A $13 billion federal program to help students from low-income families has actually widened an education funding gap between rich and poor states, according to a study released yesterday.</p>

<p>The program, known as Title I, is part of a slew of federal, state and local policies that direct more resources to the nation's wealthiest children than to its poorest, the study concluded. It found that the highest-poverty school districts receive an average of $825 less each year per student in state and local funding than the wealthiest districts. It also found that state and local money often flows disproportionately to wealthy students within districts.</p>

<p>"The decisions that we make stack the deck against low-income kids and kids of color," said Kati Haycock, president of the Education Trust, the District-based nonprofit group that issued the report. "These facts raise really disturbing questions about our values as a country."</p>

<p>The report's authors contended that Title I, which has become a key element of the No Child Left Behind law, has failed to narrow the yawning achievement gap between wealthy and disadvantaged students in part because its funding formula directs more money to states that already spend the most on education. That means the formula causes the rich states to get richer, leaving the poor ones further behind.</p>

<p>"Title I money is supposed to level the playing field for poor kids," said Goodwin Liu, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and co-author of the study, but instead it "ends up reinforcing rather than reducing inequality."</p>

<p>Experts say children raised in poverty need more instructional time and specially trained teachers to help overcome their disadvantages -- resources that require more spending.</p>

<p>The report lays much of the blame for the funding gap on states. In 26 states, the highest-poverty districts receive less state and local funding than the wealthiest ones; in 28 states, the districts with the most minority students receive less money than those with the fewest.</p>

<p>The Washington region fell in the middle of the spectrum. Maryland spends $123 less per student in poor districts than in wealthy ones and $302 less per student in high-minority districts than in those with few minorities, the study found.</p>

<p>Virginia spends $114 less per student in low-income districts than affluent ones, the study found, but $418 more per student in high-minority areas than in those with few minorities. The District was not included in the analysis.</p>

<p>Liu said the Title I formula should be changed so that states with the greatest concentration of poor children receive a larger share of funding. He said it made little sense for Maryland to receive 51 percent more Title I money per child than Arkansas even though Maryland has a lower percentage of poor children.</p>

<p>Liu argued that funding for Title I should be increased to offset disparities among states. U.S. Education Department spokesman Chad Colby said Congress controls funding. He added: "When you look at the funds at the district level, they are relatively targeted, so the money is reaching poor students."</p>

<p>Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), the incoming chairman of the Senate's education committee, suggested that he would be open to reviewing funding policy.</p>

<p>"We cannot close the education achievement gap in this country without addressing the funding gap, which keeps our low-income and minority children at a disadvantage," he said in a written statement. "States must take responsibility for ensuring access to resources for all our children, but the federal government has to do its part as well."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just another fun article to include in the debate...</p>

<p>I'm pure Asian and I do agree that sometimes, these assessments are true.</p>

<p>im so not math/science person...to be honest im very into english/soc sci
not a big fan of numbers and lab reports...
why discriminate asians.....so sad......</p>

<p>I hope that none of you buy into this crap. Be proud of who you are. Don't let the short-sightedness of college admissions blind you from being as awesome as you are. Life sucks. It sucks more when you wallow in self-pity or harbor contempt for someone else.</p>

<p>America is a country by the WASP for the WASP. The WASPs say otherwise, but they are lying to your face. If you are any other race, you are inferior in their eyes. </p>

<p>What can you do about it? Put up with it. That's about it. All you can do is to do so well, be so excellent that the WASPs can't reject you. Or you can move to the country where your race is a majority, but for many Asian Americans that is not an option, which is very unfortunate for them, because they are second-class citizens of their own country.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Both statements are from AdOfficer, and they contradict each other.

[/quote]
We should post links to statements we attribute to others, so that we are able to see the statements in context. It does a poster a great disservice to take their comments out of context and then claim the poster said what he/she did not say, or imply a logical error exists in the poster’s comments, merely on the basis of this treatment.</p>

<p>When I read the two statements in context, it becomes crystal clear to me that no contradiction exists between them. I see this because I am interested in understanding the poster’s actual beliefs and point of view, rather than in childishly trying to catch them in technicalities. Even if there was a contradiction, I would simply ask for clarification so that I could get a clear image of where the opponent is coming from.</p>

<p>The first statement is [url= <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3351307&postcount=95%5Dhere,%5B/url"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3351307&postcount=95]here,[/url&lt;/a&gt;] where I clearly see AdOfficer adding some correction and clarification to the claim that that ‘blacks are socioeconomically disadvantaged’ on average. He/she shows that while blacks have a large proportionate number of people living below the poverty line compared to whites (25% versus 8%), the largest number of people in general who live beneath the poverty line are whites. AdOfficer then adds, as a matter of interest, that more of the “wealthier” blacks are attending elite schools than their “poor” peers, obviously – comparing blacks above the poverty line to the 25% beneath the poverty line. He/she is not claiming these blacks are “wealthy” or even “middle class”, but only that blacks who are “wealthier” are gaining greater access to elite schools than those who are beneath them economically. This underscores how relative wealth (even in populations that are not rich compared to other populations) affects access to education. That is why AdOfficer mentioned it, and this is very clear to me in context of the post.</p>

<p>The second statement is found [url= <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3361179&postcount=188%5Dhere%5B/url"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=3361179&postcount=188]here[/url&lt;/a&gt;] where AdOfficer is obviously countering the image, seemingly popular among anti-AA proponents, of hordes of rich blacks being hand-selected by elite schools over teeming masses of poor, malnourished white folks (LOL). He/she counters the claim by pointing out that the majority of blacks at these schools are not rich, fairly or otherwise, and that even of the entire student body of his/her school, half are getting financial aid.</p>

<p>Merry Christmas everyone.</p>

<p>Many forgoing SAT, path to college
In a fourth of schools, less than 60% take test
By Maria Sacchetti, Globe Staff | December 25, 2006</p>

<p>
[quote]
In a fourth of the state's high schools, less than 60 percent of seniors took the SAT last year, with the rest cutting themselves off from the chance to gain admission to most US colleges.</p>

<p>The findings, based on a Globe review of state records, come as other states are putting a greater emphasis on the SAT or ACT college entrance exams, with some making one of them mandatory. Education officials in states such as Maine, which for the first time last spring required all juniors to take the SAT , worry that a fixation on other standardized exams has obscured the need to push students to take the college entrance test and pursue higher education.</p>

<p>Massachusetts takes pride in its high SAT participation -- 79 percent of graduating seniors took the test last year, one of the highest rates in the country. But, according to the Globe analysis of nearly 330 high schools with SAT scores in the state, more affluent cities and towns are responsible for much of that accomplishment. Schools such as Weston, Winchester, and Wayland tested 100 percent of seniors.</p>

<p>Many of the 82 high schools that had less than 60 percent of seniors take the SAT serve some of the state's poorest students, the Globe found. Many have a high enrollment of black or Hispanic students. About half of the schools with low rates are regular non vocational high schools: In Lawrence, Holyoke, and Chelsea high schools, barely half of the students took the SAT.</p>

<p>In many cases, even as their SAT participation rates remained low, schools were making significant strides in raising MCAS scores. In 2006 at Somerville High, where 94 percent of the seniors passed the 10th-grade MCAS required to graduate, barely half took the SAT. At Boston's Brighton and Charlestown high schools, also lauded for boosting MCAS scores, less than 60 percent took the test.</p>

<p>"These are kids that are going to be low-wage workers unless they take the SAT," said Miren Uriarte , director of the GastĂłn Institute for Latino Community Development and Public Policy at the University of Massachusetts at Boston. "The kids that are not aware of all the options are sort of left behind."</p>

<p>Researchers say low test-taking rates are a symptom of a bigger problem: High schools vary widely in how much attention they put on college preparation. Some work to send virtually all students to four-year colleges, while others guide a small percentage in that direction.</p>

<p>Boston has been requiring its sophomores and juniors to take the PSAT, a practice test. The school system has also increased graduation requirements to better prepare all students for college. But school officials say they still have to work to persuade some students to take the SAT and aspire to college because their grades are low, or their parents never went to college.</p>

<p>Nationwide, almost 81 percent of colleges and universities use the SAT for admission, according to the College Board, which owns the test and offers to waive the $41.50 test-taking fee for needy students.</p>

<p>Education Commissioner David P. Driscoll said he would like to see the SAT-taking rate increase, but he doesn't think the state can afford to pay for all students to take it at this time .</p>

<p>"As much as we brag about the high percentage of kids who take the SAT, we are concerned about the minority and poor kids who don't," said Driscoll. "It's a problem."</p>

<p>Last spring, Maine scrapped its 11th-grade state test and paid for every junior to take the SAT instead, arguing that the college entrance exam is something students can put toward their future. About 95 percent of juniors showed up for the test, officials of the state's education department said.</p>

<p>Maine's Education Commissioner, Susan A. Gendron , acknowledged that not all students will apply to four-year colleges, saying some are not ready and others want to go to work or a two-year school. But the state wanted to make sure they all had the opportunity, she said.</p>

<p>Gendron said a friend of her son's never thought he was college material until he got his SAT scores. "Every state should be thinking about this," she said.</p>

<p>The Globe studied the test-taking rates of public high schools, including regular, vocational, and charter schools, where the scores were reported by the College Board. Some alternative schools and others had no students take the test last school year. The Globe reviewed results from the 2003-04, 2004-05, and 2005-06 school years.</p>

<p>Last school year, 29 high schools tested 100 percent of their seniors. Most were in wealthy towns, along with several small, urban charter schools, and Boston's elite exam schools. Cambridge Rindge and Latin also was an exception: It had more than 80 percent of seniors take the test, even though 43 percent of the school's students were low-income.</p>

<p>But in neighboring Somerville, where a majority of students are low-income, barely half of the students take the test, a rate that has hardly budged in three years and has become a growing concern at the school.</p>

<p>Somerville guidance supervisor Carolyn Richards said she would like the rate to be closer to 70 percent , and wants the students in the school's vocational program to be encouraged to take the test as well.</p>

<p>This year, Somerville is offering free SAT prep classes to juniors and seniors on campus, and rewarding good attendance with movie passes and mall gift certificates. Guidance counselors are personally inviting students to enroll.</p>

<p>Manpreet Pabla , 16, a Somerville junior, said the school's guidance is key since her immigrant parents, who are originally from India, are unfamiliar with the American college system. "I told my mom," she said of the SAT. "She just knows it's a test. She doesn't know a lot about it."</p>

<p>Somerville counselor Stephanie Dinatali said she wants to make sure that students are academically prepared to take the test, and then see test-taking rates increase as a result. Otherwise, she said, struggling students who take the SAT and perform poorly could be discouraged from considering college.</p>

<p>In Boston, in addition to some of the large high schools, several of the city's new small-sized high schools had low test-taking rates. In recent years, the city began dividing several of its large high schools into multiple small schools, hoping more attention and career themes would improve academic achievement.</p>

<p>The Social Justice Academy , part of the former Hyde Park High, tested 12 percent of seniors last school year. The Engineering School, in the same building, tested 14 percent of seniors, but hopes to double the test-takers this year by tutoring students and encouraging them to enroll in calculus and other advanced classes at a nearby private college.</p>

<p>"I'm not proud of the number of students that have taken the SAT, but I am extremely hopeful and positive that those numbers are going to increase each year," said headmaster Mweusi Willingham. He said the school's rate was low last school year partly because of students' low grades and a high number of special education students.</p>

<p>Chris Coxon , Boston's deputy superintendent, said SAT rates have improved, but he would like to have at least 80 percent of students taking the SAT. He gathered school officials this month to discuss ways to improve test-taking rates.</p>

<p>College professors and advocates said, despite criticism of the SAT as a college-entrance requirement, a school's test-taking rate is an indicator of how serious a school is about preparing students for college.</p>

<p>They say the state should hold schools accountable for low test-taking rates. Students who are the first in their family to consider college are mired in confusion: Often their parents don't know what the SAT is, they noted.</p>

<p>"The MCAS, they know," said Samuel Hurtado , coordinator of the Latino Education Action Network, part of Massachusetts Advocates for Children. "But they don't know what you have to do to make it to college."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's another pre-college issue...</p>

<p>It's a little odd that the anti-AA set is quiet...I expected a ruckus with the last few articles.</p>

<p>Must be the Holiday...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/27/AR2006112701006.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/27/AR2006112701006.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Your articles talk about how some people are economically disadvantaged and thus cannot afford to take CB exams as well as how others lack the background and familial encouragement to pursue postsecondary education.</p>

<p>I think that schools in their districts should receive more funding at the national level. Given that we can waste so much money over nonexistent weapons, I think we can allocate funding to underfunded schools.</p>

<p>Also, as the WP article shows, a little creativity can cause so-called "average" students to become attracted to AP classes and other more challenging coursework. I think this is great because it can help them become stronger candidates for admission by their own merits. Race need not be factored in whatsoever.</p>

<p>hmmm....i would like to point out that people who are more outgoing perform better in social situations. of course lol. it would be an advantage for business meetings etc. referring to an earlier post about the african american who got into an ivy league despite his lack luster stats, it seems he had enough charisma to charm the interviewer and admissions. consider this....after admitting hundreds of introverted students with stellar stats, would it be a crime to offer a spot to a wealthy african american from good pedigree? he would be considered an URM. lol okay don't bash please. just an opinion. i am asian and i do believe in AA. i understand the frustrations. but look at it from admissions p.o.v. They want diversity and unfortunately asians have surpassed the "minority" label in top universites. Look at Harvard for instance, 20% of the student body are asians. lol atleast we're not wealthy and white, we would have an even less of a chance.</p>

<p>URM + Charm + private school = higher chance</p>

<p>UbiquityEssence,</p>

<p>That's why Asians are treated so unfairly. We're minorities, but we're not "under-represented." When our numbers exceed 20%, the campus becomes less "diverse" and less representative of the "real world." We're not White, but supporters of race-based affirmative action could care less.</p>

<p>Affirmative action based on race does nothing to benefit the preferred groups in the long run. Nothing. All it does is exacerbate racial tensions.</p>

<p>The colleges are looking for students who will bring a unique contribution to their institutions. An applicant will be looked at for that possible uniqueness among the entire set of applicants, not among the subset of ethnicity. Admissions is not examining whether you are an unusual Asian, an unusual European-Caucasian, an unusual Hispanic or African American, but whether you are unusual period.</p>

<p>Students of all ethnicities stand a far better chance of admission if they have demonstrated excellence (not just “involvement”) outside of academics. Being excellent academically just keeps your application out of the initial Rejected pile; how your application fares along the next line of progress depends on how impressive your non-academics are AND how unusual they are. This is no more true of Asians than it is for any other racial or ethnic group. The “elites” get lots & lots of applications from Anglo Caucasians who are high school football (or LaCrosse or other sport) captains (but not recruited). In itself, such a position, paired with academics, is not enough for admission. Those students are not being “discriminated against” for their racial category; they are being de-selected for the duplication of the activity – an activity which may be a preference among that subculture. The colleges have no responsibility to validate the preferences of any particular subculture, & to reward that preference with admission. Obviously there are Asiana and Anglos who vary from the “favorite” activities of their respective subcultures. Depending on the level of accomplishment & the degree of difference within the total applicant pool which will include all ethnic components, such variants stand a better chance of a second & third review, as there will be less duplication of those activities.</p>

<p>The problem that Rachel Toor had with the BWRKs is that their applications were barely distinguishable from one another’s. What overwhelmed her about those applicants was the sameness of the non-ethnic aspects of their profiles. Their internal conformity was an unavoidable & permeating theme. She never complained that they were “all White,” or that they presented the committee with the problem of a cap on just how many such Anglos they could accept. She complained that they were so remarkably similar that she actually wanted to accept none of them. So, in her reading of apps, the Anglos that she did recommend for admission were the students that broke from that conformity.</p>

<p>And again today, what will get an applicant noticed by a private elite university is:
--an address outside of suburban NY, NJ, CT, MD, VA, PA, MA
--excelling outside of academics
--activities & interests which vary from the “standard” categories of activities within the entire applicant pool, regardless of whether those activities are favored by one’s own subculture
--a personal history of commitment to others, in which it is obvious that the student has not merely added service hours to an insane academic schedule, but has substituted balance for mania – not merely added convenient summer service projects, but has made choices for the group over the individual, particularly when that participation was essential to the group. This reflects both character & leadership, as understood in the American tradition. A supplement to this is the aspect of Initiative toward the group, a term brought up by several different admissions reps at a number of college talks we attended. It would be particularly expected that you have shown such generosity if you do not have the following important 5th factor:
--an environment of economic deprivation
--academic achievement combined with true URM status + economic challenge (Southeast Asian, urban African-American, urban/rural Hispanic, Native American, etc.)</p>

<p>If you do not have any of the above 6 factors, nor are an athletic recruit, legacy/celebrity, or major donor, you do not have zero chance of admission; but you do have an uphill battle not related to your race, ethnicity, subculture. There will be, and are, many students admitted without a strong component of one or more of these 6 factors.</p>

<p>The Elites value excellence as the primary qualifying factor for admission. However, the way they define excellence is much more comprehensive than is defined by many students & a few parents on CC. There is no self-interest for them in admitting students incapable of doing the work, or who will require significant support services in order to do the work. There is also no advantage to them in denying students who will probably provide unique or exceptional academic contributions to particular programs or majors, in cases when those students have few or unimpresive high school e.c.’s. They weigh the ultimate value to the University of one applicant vs. other applicants – all the while seeking a balance in acquired skills, acquired knowledge, learning styles, likely majors, gender balance, geographical diversity, economic background, and occasionally college e.c.’s (for example, noted musician, exceptional athlete, promising journalist for a high-profile college publication, etc.) None of this is to advantage or punish any particular group. It is to advantage the priorities of the college/U. It is also not so simple as being a Buyer in a Buyer’s Market, although clearly they are. It is also that they have to weigh the potential loss of a particular candidate to that college’s chief rivals – the peer schools. That requires some educated guesses & calculations on their part, & is often the reason why a student might be accepted at one institution but waitlisted at an equivalent. These are all self-serving-driven decisions, not racially driven decisions.</p>

<p>If they were supposedly focused on social engineering or quotas or caps on certain groups, there wouldn’t be the relative proportions that are in fact there at the Elites. There wouldn’t be ~20% Asians; there would be 3-4% Asians, & there would be greater percentages of other groups; they would also be admitting many academically borderline students.from URM categories. But that’s not what has occurred. Every University, & every University system, has its own priorities. For the Elites, my opinion is that it is best described as a diversity of excellence (vs. racial diversity). Excellence is the first, & most important, priority. And the variations within the excellence sought are comprised of much more than race. </p>

<p>In general, public universities are committed to serving the residents of their respective States. This is their first priority. Therefore, despite Comprehensive Review, the U.C. system (for example) is not primarily dedicated to admitting disadvantaged URM”s. It couldn’t be, or their enrollment numbers would not be what they are. U.C. has become increasingly merit-driven because it can be: it reflects the population of the state & the applications it receives, which are overwhelmingly Asian and middle class. Students competing with merit-heavy applicants to U.C. will only be admitted with “lower” numbers than other applicants if they meet the standard of considerable challenge & disadvantage (which may be economic and/or some unusual factor of environment). Being an under-represented minority is no longer enough to qualify as a disadvantage. And by the way, that was true even before AA was overturned in CA. </p>

<p>Alumother made a point on Parents Forum which should be repeated for purposes of this thread, since other posters recently here brought up how supposedly prejudiced, discriminatory, yadayada this country is. Such statements reveal a chasm of ignorance regarding the foundations of this country, the history of actual discrimination & civil rights struggles, and the affirmative ideals underlying American society. Those ideals are quite different from values & ideals in countries which were not founded on a base of participatory democracy, which has as a driving dynamic the assumption of inclusion & the expectation of generosity. (Hence, the importance of the notion of sacrifice & leadership as described in my previous post – a factor often considered more valuable than mere private, individual achievement.)</p>

<p>Students wanting an education in this country will be frustrating themselves not to understand & accept that these priorities permeate educational as well as political institutions. There are countries which do not have such priorities. Whether “it’s not an option” to emigrate (or to return to one’s native country) is not a problem for the Elites or, for that matter, for any college in this country to solve. I would think that especially if leaving is “not an option,” that it would be prudent to try to shed one’s own prejudices & assumptions (esp. the inaccurate ones) about what the Elites do & do not value, & also what is valued by different colleges, to which admission might conform to the student’s given profile & own priorities/values. To integrate within the institutions of any country, it’s best to become maximally educated about what it takes to succeed for entrance into that system & success within it.</p>

<p>
[quote]

To integrate within the institutions of any country, it’s best to become maximally educated about what it takes to succeed for entrance into that system & success within it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And I agree 100%!</p>

<p>The current system of preferring some groups over others has led to many bad incentives. I believe that if there were no racial preferences, then questions like "Am I an under-represented minority?" would not be asked. People would not "try" to distance themselves from a stereotype. People would not avoid checking a race box. People would not think about changing their last names to hide their ethnicities.</p>

<p>Many students on CC know that certain racial groups, dubbed "under-represented," are preferred over others. Hence, the existence of threads where users ask if their 12.5% Native American blood is sufficient to check a box. These users have educated themselves on how the system works, and they are trying to play by the rules for their benefits.</p>

<p>In the same vein, several students here have asked whether it would be advantageous for them to not check the race box. Once again, these users have educated themselves on how the system works, and they are trying to play by the rules for their benefits. Some even ponder changing their last names, the names of their fathers, because they believe - correction, know that their group is not a preferentially treated group.</p>

<p>The very term "under-represented" is ridiculous. It is designed to exclude Asians, who are minorities in this nation but aren't treated like ones.</p>

<p>Several users have suggested, either in good faith or bad, that students should try to make themselves stand out. I have no problem with this. The problem occurs when this suggestion is used alongside the existing system. If documented instances of "textureless math grind" and "not another boring []" exist, then I would not be surprised if statements like "he's just trying to be different" also exist. If race were not considered, then I doubt these words would be stated.</p>

<p>I've been accused by some of having a sense of entitlement. That is, I have been accused of believing that I am entitled to attend elite universities and others are not. I have no such feeling. The only feeling I have is that no racial group should be treated differently. If believing that races should be treated equally is a "weak argument," then I'd really like to know what a "strong" one is. Quite frankly, preferring some races over others doesn't do anything good for anyone in the long run.</p>

<p>If we're ever going to live in a race-blind society, which may even be impossible, then we should start by proclaiming that NO race should be treated differently. This differs markedly from the current system, where it is acceptable in the eyes of some to treat certain groups differently than others on the sole basis of their skin color.</p>

<p>Top Wall Street jobs still elude women, minorities
By Tim McLaughlin | December 27, 2006</p>

<p>
[quote]
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Even though Wall Street investment banks have made diversity a top priority for the past decade, it may take several more years before women and minorities gain a foothold in the ranks of senior management.</p>

<p>That forecast comes from industry experts, investment bank diversity chiefs and trends in hiring data.</p>

<p>Minorities and women continue to be squeezed in Wall Street's promotion pipeline when it comes to attaining senior positions -- those at the managing director level and above that reaped multimillion-dollar bonuses this year.</p>

<p>"The numbers indicate the squeeze is real," said Subha Barry, head of diversity at Merrill Lynch & Co. <mer.n>.</mer.n></p>

<p>On an upbeat note, Barry said she would be surprised if Merrill Lynch's diversity in the middle to senior management ranks doesn't mirror in five years the composition of the company's board of directors. Its board includes several women and minorities, including Chairman Stan O'Neal, who is black.</p>

<p>In the past four years, Merrill Lynch's entry-level hires for diversity "are 100 percent better," she said.</p>

<p>"The top and the bottom have to meet. The middle is where the work has to be done," Barry said.</p>

<p>For nearly a dozen years, Barron Harvey has watched Wall Street put its best foot forward mentoring, recruiting and hiring black students at Howard University in Washington D.C.</p>

<p>Harvey has a front row seat as the dean of Howard University's business school. While there's plenty more to do, he said Wall Street companies have done a good job of increasing awareness among undergraduate and graduate students about careers in investment banking.</p>

<p>"Let's face it, banking is not a career that's promoted in high school or in the community," Harvey said. "You get exposure through someone who has reached out to you in high school or during your collegiate career."</p>

<p>Wall Street companies say they put considerable effort into building diversity within their ranks. "Our commitment to diversity is unparalleled," No. 2 investment bank Morgan Stanley <ms.n> says on its Web site.</ms.n></p>

<p>Not to be outdone, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. <gs.n>, the world's largest investment bank, says its work force represents 150 nationalities and speaks 84 different languages. "...At Goldman Sachs, diversity is a business imperative."</gs.n></p>

<p>From 1993 through 2004, overall diversity at the management level in the financial services industry changed only slightly, the U.S. Government Accountability Office said in a report this year. African-Americans, for example, only increased their representation in management a percentage point to 6.6 percent. White females were at a little more than one-third.</p>

<p>In 2004, the share of management positions held by white women, for example, varied from a high of 41 percent in the insurance sector to a low of 27 percent among securities firms, the GAO said. Minorities held 15 percent of management-level positions in the brokerage industry, compared to 18 percent at commercial banks, the GAO said.</p>

<p>"We're starting to see a critical mass coming through the pipeline," Harvey said, referring to Wall Street in general. "But it will take time for the pipeline to show impact at the managing director level."</p>

<p>A 2005 diversity survey commissioned by the Securities Industry Association showed that women accounted for 44 percent of the industry's work force, up from 37 percent in 2003. Women account for 46.4 percent of the total U.S. civilian work force, according to the U.S. Labor Department.</p>

<p>"The fact that the percentage of white men is decreasing and the representation of women of all races is increasing is an optimistic sign that the industry is moving toward parity with the general work force," the SIA said.</p>

<p>Still, Adam Klein, an attorney at Outten & Golden LLP in New York, said there are several reasons why minorities and women may not see investment banking as a good fit. For one, he said they may not get paid the same as their white male counterparts for doing the same job.</p>

<p>Klein's firm represented former Morgan Stanley bond trader Allison Schieffelin in a sex discrimination lawsuit against the securities firm that resulted in a $54 million settlement with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in 2004.</p>

<p>"These diversity efforts don't say anything about compensation," Klein said. "That's the bottom line issue."</p>

<p>Klein also said informal networking, such as playing golf and strip bar outings-- also prevent equal treatment because minorities and women may feel uncomfortable in those settings.</p>

<p>"There's no way to monitor these because they operate outside the formal constraints of a company's diversity program," he said.</p>

<p>Others cite a lack of flexibility.</p>

<p>"They don't want fewer hours, but control over what they do," Sharon Hadary, executive director of the Center for Women's Business Research, said of women's tendency to leave corporate careers for entrepreneurial ventures.</p>

<p>"The second reason is that they didn't get an opportunity to influence the strategic direction of the organization, that no one listened to them," Hadary said.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's another one...</p>

<p>And Fab:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The very term "under-represented" is ridiculous. It is designed to exclude Asians, who are minorities in this nation but aren't treated like ones.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Would you rather be treated as other minorities are? Under-represented is a term used to get across the idea that there is a porportion (what ever that might be) when trying to compare a macro and micro phenomenon. It illuminates the contrast between the US as a whole and the state(s) that divert from the average. Without the word establishing a relationship between the two, you either have to argue the macro OR the micro case, but not both--as most of us CCer'sdo on this board. Without context, the debate is moot. Whatever ones position, one would win.</p>

<p>As for the second part, Asians are treated like all other minority groups whether gender-based, ethnically, socially, economically. It's a question of who is in power. Asians as a whole, in the US, do not have much power. At the micro level, if Asians were not in the majority in Hawaii, do you think the white minority would be treated the way they are presently? Asian's living in Hawaii dictate the social norms and protect their power politically. It does affect Hawaiian society because those that look different (whites) often get worse treatment (as opposed to other non-Asian URM groups). Is that different than in other states with respect to power and oppression? </p>

<p>Every non-majority group battles against the norm set by those who have power (no matter their ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc...), although in different ways and different arenas.</p>

<p>A term used to get across the idea that there is a proportion when trying to compare a macro and micro phenomenon? No, just no.</p>

<p>It's a term devised by supporters of race-based affirmative action to reconcile their beliefs when Asians make up over 20% of a campus WITHOUT racial preferences. Its usage implies tacit support for a quota system.</p>

<p>Asians are treated like all other minority groups? Is that so? Then, why aren't they included in the "under-represented" category? Is it because they're, gasp, "over-represented?" Quotas, quotas, quotas, that's all "under-represented" and "over-represented" mean. Asians are definitely NOT treated like all other minority groups. I wager that people would never dare to even think about branding "under-represented" applicants as textureless math grinds or dismiss them as yet another boring person who wants to do what 'everyone' in his group does.</p>

<p>What point are you trying to make by using Hawaii, anyway? If Whites are the victims of discrimination in Hawaii and can prove so, then they should sue. Simple as that.</p>

<p>fabrizio,</p>

<p>Your entire argument presupposes 2 things:</p>

<p>(1) that every group or subgroup of applicants has an internally conforming profile of academics & e.c.'s. This would speak not only to lack of variation within each group, but more importantly, lack of spillover (resemblance) outside of each group. Beyond the stereotyping, it is inaccurate. There are Caucasian students who are negatively affected by having common or popular e.c.'s along with a configuration of high SAT scores + a math or science emphasis + math/science awards. Unless such students are from Alaska, Australia, play a very unusual instrument, are impoverished, etc., they will be every bit as affected by "similarity" as an Asian student from a favorite State, suburban location, middle-class background.</p>

<p>A common & popular e.c. among Caucasians is high school sports. And one of the reasons is that, unlike certain performing arts, it is somewhat easier to participate in sports than in the arts, especially for a non-star player. Being a team captain, being "involved" for 4 yrs., making it to varsity level -- while these may be considered personal achievements by any student, they are frankly not that remarkable to a college, which sees thousands of student applicants like this. And would an Asian listing h.s. sports rather than violin be any more advantaged than other Asians? Not really, unless that student was truly a star (in which case he's probably been recruited), or unless that is a unique or new sport to the University.</p>

<p>(2) That your idealized race-blind merit model is a statistical possibility, when it is not, for the simple reason of hundreds of ties. A "color-blind" system might result in 45% Asians, 45% Anglos, + 10% combined "other." But among the entire admitted group would be hundreds of students tied with those admitted. Either they would have to be arbitrarily denied, or they would be denied based on other factors such as e.c.'s, QUALITATIVE VALUE TO THE UNIVERSITY, geographical balance, economic opportunity, racial balance, etc.</p>