I wish I weren't Asian

College Confidential Community
461

<p>"You’ve stated that even within a 90% qualified pool, diversity is not “automatic.” So, if the 90% qualified pool won’t naturally produce satisfactory diversity, then doesn’t that mean you’d have to dip into the remaining 10%?"</p>

<p>Fabio,</p>

<p>I interpreted epiphany to mean that diversity won't just "happen" in any given applicant pool. There are other forces at play.</p>

<p>Let me propose an example. UCIrvine is now 53% Asian. It is known, (even on Wikipedia!), as the "University of Chinese Immigrants." Like all universities, its reputation is likely to attract students who feel they are a good "fit" with the school. Who would that be? (Doubtful that it is a large group of qualified African-Americans, Whites or Latinos.)</p>

<p>If a university's mission includes providing an atmosphere where a racially diverse group of students feels comfortable, then they will have to "do" something to obtain the balance they are seeking.</p>

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<p>Columbia at one time was 40% Jewish, so it got the reputation that it was the Jewish school. The administration was really worried that WASP would not feel they are a good fit with the school. So they really tried to cut down the number of Jewish students. Then this Jewish guy named Feynman came along and applied to Columbia with outstanding score in math and science, and of course Columbia rejected him to obtain the balance they were seeking.</p>

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<p>Re Post 458:
Again, fabrizio, you are putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my mind, & keystrokes on this thread that have never been there, nor logically implied from my previous statements, abundant examples, & arguments.</p>

<p>I'm not "afraid," but you continue to use emotional language in an intellectual debate. You are a fan of the When Will You Stop Beating Your Wife? trick. (Answer: The "I" never did beat the wife, but the "When" tricks the responder into defending a position or action never taken, requiring them to admit to guilt or to an opposite belief.)</p>

<p>You are also a fan of the Games People Play game, "Let's you and him fight." Address your concerns about racial stereotyping reflected in your 2 favorite phrases, to those who made those comments. Again, because I don't care to engage an absent Third Party in a debate involving actual first & second party participants, is not reason to associate me with the Third Party. That is a very infantile tactic & not one befitting someone applying to upper-level colleges.</p>

<p>I have patiently refrained until now from articulating what was just spelled out in Post #459, but have privately come to the same conclusion some time ago. You indeed do paint URM's with quite a broad brush, but most offensively, consider that they "must" not be "qualified" (i.e., among the 90% spoken of by rep after rep, year after year, which equals thousands of applicants). Rather, they "must" or "would have to" be among the 10% unqualified. You have no evidence of such stereotypes & categories. And Drosselmeier recently explained that he was not intending to say that there are no qualified blacks applying to Elites (as have I), but that the numbers-race, taken out of context with other aspects of student achievement, would result in a tinier proportion of black acceptances relative to their number of applications (versus results for already well-represented groups such as Caucasians & Asians). Neither Drosselmeier nor I has ever said that blacks with scores less than 2380 are not qualified. And since plenty of Asians & Caucasians get in with scores considerably below that, he couldn't mean that, nor could I.</p>

<p>And because someone does not agree with some of your arguments or complaints or positions (such as "race should never be even considered in achieving a freshman class balance among qualified contenders") does not mean that they disagree with all of your positions (such as racial groups should not be stereotyped).</p>

<p>As to an earlier issue I never addressed, but was discussed by others, the aspect of "personality," "charm," "personal qualities," etc. is also not something attributable to a whole group, sub-group of people. (Or the absence of the same.) There are charming URM's and non-charming URM's. What will tend to advantage an applicant, of course, is (esp. if an interview is involved) an ability to articulate who one is, what one is, what one loves, believes, has done, strives for. It helps to display passion when discussing one's passion. But most people are broad-minded, including those selected to work in admissions, & will not disregard an applicant for an evident struggle with a second language. I will agree with anyone that better oversight is sometimes warranted with regard to some Alum interviewers, some of whom are deadwood (it seems), or ask inappropriate questions.</p>

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<p>bomgeedad</p>

<p>Nice fictional story! That's the problem with you and Fabio- you cannot see the forest through the trees, the "big picture." Its just all about you and your hurt feelings, isn't it?</p>

<p>Wake up and smell the flowers of America. We are a nation of racial diversity. Promoting and encouraging racial diversity is a virtue that has been analyzed and over-analyzed. Maybe not all races achieve "outstanding score in math and science" (as the bom would say), but that doesn't mean they don't have something just as (or more) valuable to bring to the table.</p>

<p>Get over the "scores" mentality! Hasn't that subject been beaten to death???</p>

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<p>Asians lack creativity opposed to their western counterparts? Let see who can match Socrates and Plato in Asian history? Let us use ?The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History? by Michael H. Hart, mainly because it is the most available list on the net. Confucius ranks #5, Plato #39, Lao Tzu #73, Socrates did not made the list.</p>

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<p>"Feynman rejected by Columbia because he is Jewish" is "Nice fictional story!". This shows how much Bay knows.</p>

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<p>actually jews cant just change their name, because i can still tell if their jewish or not by the way they look. im not TRYING to tell lol i just can. which is cool with me, because i have a lot of jewish friends. actually im attracted to jewish men for some reason....</p>

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<p>sybbie719,</p>

<p>If you can show me that racial preferences benefit society, I'll change my mind.</p>

<p>If you can show me that treating people differently based on their race is morally right, I'll change my mind.</p>

<p>Please, don't patronize me by dismissing my total rejection of racial preferences as "youthful confusion."</p>

<p>epiphany,</p>

<p>Wow, we sure do have a lot of misunderstandings with each other. Luckily, most of them get corrected.</p>

<p>As far as painting "under-represented" minorities with a broad brush, hard work is a core American value. Yes, there are cultural differences. No, that does not mean that hard work doesn't pay off for them.</p>

<p>I have never stated that "under-represented minority" candidates 'must' not be 'qualified.' I have, however, argued that if you think that everyone in the 90% group is qualified, then intervention isn't necessary to produce "diversity." Obviously, since you have stated that intervention is necessary, you'd need to dip into the 10% pool. Which means that you would have to lump qualified candidates along with unqualified candidates.</p>

<p>There are qualified "under-represented minority" applicants. Drosselmeier mentioned a student whose scores are significantly higher than mine. I've never, ever stated that there don't exist qualified "under-represented minority" students. I have, however, stated that there currently aren't enough. If there were, then you wouldn't be advocating racial preferences for "balance" and "diversity." It'd happen - naturally.</p>

<p>Thank you for your penultimate paragraph. Yes, we do have agreements with each other. Sometimes, however, I feel that you downplay the importance of how insidious comments like "not another boring Asian" are. I wanted to send a clear message that they aren't unacceptable, but obviously, I'm not doing a very good job.</p>

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<p>Bay,</p>

<p>First off, here's a source confirming bomgeedad's reference to Dr. Feynman.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_2_sndgs05.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_2_sndgs05.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I've been living in a diverse America for 17 years. We most definitely are a nation of racial diversity. We're also a nation of principles, and one of our most important principles is equal treatment.</p>

<p>Racial preferences are not equal treatment.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeier mentioned a student whose scores are significantly higher than mine. I've never, ever stated that there don't exist qualified "under-represented minority" students. I have, however, stated that there currently aren't enough.

[/quote]
There are plenty enough blacks and Hispanics with the same sort of stats as whites and Asians who we would agree are qualified. It is just that the numbers are too few relative to the other groups so that should we just cast them to the Statistical Chances of gaining acceptance, they would get overlooked.</p>

<p>I do think you tend to misrepresent your opponents' positions. It seems you do not work hard enough to understand their views and motives. Ultimately, you end up wasting a lot of time creating views, then attempting to put them into your opponents' mouths, rather than understanding your opponents and seeing the issues as they see them.</p>

<p>Here is an example of this, said to Momwaitingfornew:</p>

<p>
[quote]
It just occurred to me that both you and Drosselmeier have a similar view. You both seem to support finding the "talented tenth" and sending them to the elites. Forgive me if I grossly misstate your views (I don't think I am), but neither of you seems to be interested in making the remaining 90% stronger.

[/quote]
Don't you think you have done both Momwaitingfornew and me a grave disservice here? You are saying it appears we are not interested in helping the remaining 90% when I have stated repeatedly here that a comprehensive solution is needed so that all of these students are helped, not just the 90%, but also the 10%. I do not wish to throw the 10% to the trash heap of statistics because they will eventually return to help those of us who labor everyday with that 90%. We need the 10%, as much of it as we can get, so that their example encourages the 90%. As that 10% has children, and as we work with the 90%, some of whom will be helped by programs like AVID, that 90% will over time become 80%, then 70%, then 60%, then 50%. When it reaches 50%, we've won.</p>

<p>It is dishonorable to claim "it seems" we don't care about the 90% when some of us are hammering at the problems of that 90% all day long. Son, this is no way to defend your views.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I've been living in a diverse America for 17 years. We most definitely are a nation of racial diversity. We're also a nation of principles, and one of our most important principles is equal treatment.

[/quote]
LOL. Well, your little 17 years (half of which undoubtedly was lived in the fog of childhood) is absolutely nothing but a little spit on a forest fire compared with the number of years I have lived here. And I tell you that America has never lived up to its stated principles. Even when it was writing those principles it was working with all its might to break them by enslaving my ancestors. Even after nearly half the country shed its blood to protect the right to break American principle, and even after it failed, America STILL continued to break its principles. Because of that unequal treatment, blacks are having great difficulty, which means America STILL fails to live up to its principles. There can be no equality until this country earnestly stands up and put in the sweat and blood to address the problem it has caused. Treating race in college admissions as if it doesn't matter would just be yet another of myriad lies America has told all along about race.</p>

<p>If we wish to treat race as if it really doesn't matter, I'm all for it. Lord knows I am. I'd be the very first to jump on that bandwagon (well, maybe not. I'll wait and see if yall jump on first!). But let's start treating it as if it doesn't matter in areas that typically cause direct harm. Then we can work on other areas.</p>

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<p>"I have, however, argued that if you think that everyone in the 90% group is qualified, then intervention isn't necessary to produce "diversity." Obviously, since you have stated that intervention is necessary, you'd need to dip into the 10% pool."</p>

<p>Everyone in the 90% group is qualified. (According to College Admissions Departments & according to Presidents of Elite Universities.)
However, the number of qualified URM's in that 90% group is small. I have never recommended reaching into the 10% group, ever. In fact, earlier in this thread I specifically said that no one unqualified should have been, or should be, admitted to a college or U where he or she cannot do the work. (I know that sentence is redundant.) I have advocated 2 things: </p>

<p>(1) outreach (making URM's more competitive for Elites, so that they can become part of the 90% group)
(2) supporting the current policy of most Elite admissions departments, who, in order to achieve a more evenly balanced class, will tend to admit most or even all - in some cases-- the qualified URM's but not all the qualified non-URM's, where there is such an extreme imbalance between the two.</p>

<p>And understand -- and this is something I'm not sure you're clear about -- the 10% includes all unqualified students, period. Please do not tell me that you believe that group consists of no Asians and no Caucasians. I don't buy it. (Because I know some instances of majority race and Asians applying to such places, & know how truly unqualified they are.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Everyone in the 90% group is qualified. (According to College Admissions Departments & according to Presidents of Elite Universities.) However, the number of qualified URM's in that 90% group is small. I have never recommended reaching into the 10% group, ever.

[/quote]
Me either.</p>

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<p>"Not another boring Asian" is only as offensive as the concept that a qualified URM must have been accepted to HYP <em>because</em> of race.</p>

<p>I didn't make the above quoted comment. Again, stop asking me to fight someone else's battle. Go fight with the person who made that comment. You're not asking anyone else on this thread except for me to condemn that comment. And this is not going to work.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I disagreed with Drosselmeier's use of the phrase "built-in downward pressures." If I recall correctly, he used it to mean that Blacks are basically born with feelings of inferiority.

[/quote]
Nope. I did not. I used it to describe the effectively discriminatory reality that blacks live in every day. Black kids, in a way unlike any other kids, are born into a society that expects them to fail; and in too many cases they are living down to those expectations. The downward pressures are built into our society. It has always been thus, since about 1650 right until today. Click</a> here to see me describing just a few of thousands of these pressures. They assault us from the very moment we are conceived, and they do not stop until we are dead. We can counteract them, but we need to develop ways to do it that are relevant to the real life difficulties that affect blacks.</p>

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<p>I'm half Asian and half Jewish.</p>

<p>So I'm considered a smart white dude and an athletic Asian. Works to my advantage. Today, I got busted for the 100000000000 time in class for talking/participating about intellectual stuff. Maybe teachers hate everyone.</p>

<p>Man, I know some asians that kick my but in school work. This chick studied for 12 freaking hours for a Calculus test and I still smashed her without studying. (I got a C) I mean all the asians at my school have 4.0's but 1400 SAT scores. A grip of ambition. They are like studying. Which is good. I know this asian chick that has applied and willing to attend BYU to leave state and avoid parties and socializing to concentrate on school. That's extreme.</p>

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<p>there must be a lot of asians since this thread is still going on</p>

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<p>"Forgive me if I grossly misstate your views"</p>

<p>You are forgiven.</p>

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<p>"'ve been living in a diverse America for 17 years. We most definitely are a nation of racial diversity. We're also a nation of principles, and one of our most important principles is equal treatment."</p>

<p>If equal treatment began at birth, then I'd be all for race-blind admissions. The principles don't also translate into reality, however, and that is the problem.</p>

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<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>Despite my best efforts, I cannot see the world in the eyes of a redemptive liberal or grievance elite unless I want to shock myself.</p>

<p>I believe slavery and segregation were terrible sins. Yet, I do not feel that reparations must be paid through racial preferences. I have no white guilt in that sense. The reparations should be paid through equal treatment, not preferential treatment.</p>

<p>Previously, we had a discussion about Johnny. I was very interested in finding ways that would increase the number of students who were as academically focused as Johnny, but you were very interested in finding the existing students like him so that he would eventually serve as a role model and create more.</p>

<p>From what I remember, you consistently supported finding the existing students with potential and giving them preferential treatment as a sort of boost. I did not see how your plan directly affected the 90% group. Your plan heavily relied on the good will of the talented tenth.</p>

<p>So, yes, I apologize because you are interested in helping the remaining 90%, albeit in an indirect way. I'm more interested in directly helping them.</p>

<p>And, for the n-th time, that's why I support programs like AVID. I'm not saying it is perfect, but I do like its idea. Much more so than racial preferences.</p>

<p>Sir, I'm just really glad that you express views which place you in an extreme minority.</p>