I wish I weren't Asian

College Confidential Community
501

<p>I agree with momwaitingfornew that curiosity & complexity vary by individual, not by race, nationality, or ethnic group. As to leadership -- & why Elites (esp.) want this -- this continues to be misunderstood. On one level, there is a literal meaning: Have you ever Seen a Need & Filled it? (Or do you do so as a habit?) Are you, have you been, a self-starter? Are you comfortable having others rely on you? Or -- conversely -- do you always wait for others to take the lead, even when you do see a need? Are you only a joiner?</p>

<p>It's not that U's want 100% leaders. I used to think that, & that really troubled me. Most people have experienced the nightmare of being in a room or a class or an organization/team with only leaders/go-getters/people of action. ("Yikes! Get me out of here!") But what they would like to see is the <em>potential</em> for leadership as a response to needs & problems. It doesn't have to be in a big, splashy, mega-organizational way, requiring extroversion, superior self-confidence, a high level of social adroitness. It often just means taking some <em>initiative</em> and <em>responsibility</em>, in smaller ways, in smaller circles, but perhaps in a way that makes a difference, & (esp.) over a long period of time. One can be quiet & reserved, yet be seen in one's own sphere as a leader/role model.</p>

<p>In itself, being an athletic team captain or student body president is not necessarily evidence of the kind of leadership most sought-after. It could be, if those positions resulted in particularly effective outcomes, & coaches or administrators wrote letters reinforcing that. But those roles could also have been the result of popularity, or in some cases appointment by default. More impressive might be acting as student rep on an adult board or agency which required you to sacrifice homework nights getting an ever higher weighted GPA, to do the hard work necessitated by monthly or weekly meetings, related activity, & communication about that to others, & which required a level of initiative greater than being a team captain. More impressive also might be using one's role as athletic team captain to generate school enthusiasm for organizing or promoting some local Special Olympics events. Are you just a resume-padder, tallying up your 4000 hours (which will just make admissions officers laugh at you, most likely), or are you a visionary, in your own "world"? Do you use your opportunities -- and your advantages living in a first world -- creatively? </p>

<p>More than anything else, what great universities like to see is generosity, and this is often what they mean by leadership. Are you so absorbed in your private efforts at scholarly endeavors that your world is all about You? One more higher test score? One more impressive academic accolade? How "competitive" you are with your peers? Or have you shown an impulse to share those abilities, talents, knowledge, whatever -- in some cases perhaps with peers, in other cases perhaps with those less advantaged than yourself, who might benefit from your energy to academic commitment?</p>

<p>But hey: If you think these are vile (not to mention "racist") reasons for being considered for Elite admissions, you should definitely contact those Universities & register your disgust. Those are the decision makers. There are only a handful of such people on CC.</p>

502

<p>
[quote]
First generation means university education, not immigration status. You don't have to take my word for it, start a new thread on this topic and see what other people say.</p>

<p>The irony is that most of Harvard's black students (and a large percentage of black students in other elite colleges,) have background similar to the Asian students. That is they are children of immigrants (from Africa or Caribbean) often with professional background. They are highly motived like the Asians, they value education, good grades and good SAT scores. So this is hardly an Asian issue.</p>

<p>See
<a href="http://www.nuatc.org/articles/pdf/CollegesTakeMoreTopBlacks.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nuatc.org/articles/pdf/CollegesTakeMoreTopBlacks.pdf&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm really curious to hear a response to this article from affirmitive action supporters. Is AA benefiting the wrong people?</p>

503

<p>The glaring similarity I'm noticing in many of the posts here is thoughtless regurgitation of the age old beliefs against "the Orient" (a place that has historically encompassed any non-Greek lands, Persia, Byzantium, Ottoman Turkey, Egypt, the Middle East, India, and East Asia). Some of these beliefs are the notions that:</p>

<p>**1) Orientals can't think for themselves<a href="thus%20the%20stereotypes%20of%20Asians%20being%20controlled%20by%20parents,%20even%20though%20many%20black,%20white,%20and%20Latino%20parents%20are%20just%20as%20concerned%20and%20strict%20about%20their%20children">/b</a></p>

<p>**2) Orientals are all the same<a href="which%20is%20why%20such%20culturally%20diverse%20peoples%20as%20Indians,%20Koreans,%20Filipinos,%20Sri%20Lankans,%20and%20Vietnamese%20are%20all%20lumped%20into%20the%20same%20category;%20in%20a%20parallel%20universe,%20the%20University%20of%20Shanghai%20would%20lump%20Germans,%20Spaniards,%20Israelis,%20Saudi%20Arabians,%20Persians,%20Morrocans,%20Indians,%20and%20Russians%20as%20all%20being%20of%20the%20homogeneous%20Caucasian%20group">/b</a></p>

<p>**3) Orientals can never be like "us"<a href="which%20is%20why%20Asian-Americans%20and%20Asians%20are%20hardly%20distinguished,%20unless%20the%20Asian-American%20does%20something%20extraordinary%20to%20prove%20otherwise">/b</a></p>

<p>**4) Orientals are a threat and untrustworthy<a href="thus%20the%20concerns%20over%20Asian%20takeover%20of%20top%20colleges">/b</a></p>

<p>**5) Orientals are ultimately inferior and have to work hard to make up for natural disadvantages<a href="thus%20the%20notion%20that%20an%20Asian%20kid%20with%20great%20scores%20must've%20had%20no%20life,%20because%20an%20Asian%20would%20have%20to%20devote%20every%20single%20minute%20of%20free%20time%20to%20achieve%20such%20good%20scores,%20whereas%20a%20white%20would've%20done%20it%20in%20half%20the%20time%20and%20spent%20the%20rest%20of%20the%20time%20partying">/b</a></p>

<p>Juxtaposed against these unworthy beings are the Occidentals (Westerners) who hold monopolies on such virtues as ingenuity, enterprise, vision, intrepidness, etc. Any Oriental who has any of these traits are an exception amongst the faceless horde.</p>

<p>The idea that Asians are "unsocial" is an extremely white-centric view that deems that since Asians don't hang out with whites, they must be unsocial. Many of the Asians I know are the most reckless partiers I know. Does anybody ever consider the fact that Asians may consider the homogeneous white cliques just as inscrutable and exclusive? Does any white person ever consider how self-conscious an Asian might get at an all-white get-together, with all the intensely negative stereotypes in the media (if it's a guy, that he's a nerdy beta male; if it's a girl, that she's desperate and slutty). How did whites handle not being the dominant group? Oh yeah, not very well: they fled to the suburbs. </p>

<p>Personally, I think Asian-Americans who are supposedly "white-washed" are still too cliquey, but that's another argument on another day. My point here is that whites who think Asians aren't integrating enough should look at themselves, and how accommodating they are to the minority population.</p>

<p>There have been way too many sweeping generalizations made in these 34 pages that it's not worth my time and effort to quote and question them all. To all those ridiculous people who have pretended to know what millions of Asian-American students are like, please read the 5 points I have posted and ask yourself whether or not your conclusions are based on any sort of credible thought process, or are not merely the by-product of a lazy, media-fed, ****-for-neurons brain.</p>

<p>Stereotypes of all sorts are all around us; anybody could change the image of any subgroup if they wanted to. But they don't. What does that tell us? You decide.</p>

504

<p>With regard to post 503, I myself have not only never implied or stated a type or a stereotype, with regard to qualities, but I have repudiated typing & stereotyping in a number of posts. If the author of the last post believes that other people's posts reveal ignorance or mythology, perhaps it would be helpful to clear the air about such misinformation, directly & publicly here. After all, if there is so much supposed outrage about it, surely it would be a public service to re-educate everyone, wouldn't it?</p>

<p>That said, I don't think a "reckless partier" qualifies as one of the more upstanding social aspects that Elite U's are seeking.</p>

<p>In that regard, and in regard to addressing specific points on this thread, perhaps the poster should reflect on how "credible" his own "thought processes" are. </p>

<p>And if "Orientals" (just using your words) have all the personal qualities necessary for admission to Elites (as I have no doubt many have, probably just as many as in any other ethnic grouping), then there's no need to be concerned about whether a University admissions committee will notice that, is there? Occasionally people of all races get admitted when they "shouldn't," (aren't as qualified, lie on their apps, are people of bad character, etc.), and occasionally people who "should" get in do not, due mainly to a crowded field & less often to an "off" judgment call, but MOSTLY the committees have the experience to read between the lines when it comes to an application, an essay, an interview, a recommendation. If you don't believe that, that says more about your assumptions/prejudices about "Occidentals" than it says about anything else.</p>

505

<p>^</p>

<p>I did not have your posts in mind when I made my criticisms. I only read about the first 4 pages of this thread before being thoroughly disgusted enough to write my thoughts. I've looked into what you've said, and you make sense, but I don't think we're on the same page here.</p>

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but your assertion is that special students get into special (aka Ivies and the like) schools. I agree. Nobody has a right to feel like they have a spot entitled to them just because they have high SATs, high grades, and abundant EC activities (the trifecta), because thousands of other American high school seniors are like that. The application process to top colleges is not a search for somebody who has the trifecta, but a search for who amongst those with the trifecta has another trifecta of accomplishments and qualities. I couldn't agree more. </p>

<p>However, my concern was that college admissions people, as well as ignorami in these boards, were making sweeping generalizations with regards to Asian-Americans. In an effort to save time on the arduous task on finding out which 4.0 GPA 2300 SAT athletic captain was better than the other 4.0 GPA 2300 SAT athletic captains in the applicant pool, it seems that some admissions people have adopted a perverse "Asian until proven otherwise" attitude that enables to quickly dismiss many qualified Asian applicants who would've warranted at least a second look if they were of any other race. I'm not saying that all these rejected Asian applicants would've made it, because the average admission rate for an Ivy League school is about what, 12-15%? But you and I know there's a big difference between an applicant being turned down because there was someone legitimately better, and an applicant being turned down because he or she was Asian and was therefore branded a "textureless math grind" without much proof. The fact that Asians have to be apologetic for doing perfectly normal things like pursuing sciences, playing music, and even just getting good grades just shows that there is an unbalanced playing field. When Asian-Americans do what their parents want them to do and act every bit the stereotype of the studious Asian, they're blacklisted; when white people do what their parents want them to do and act every bit the stereotype of the rich WASP, they're admitted at over 50% (or some other ridiculously high number) as "legacies".</p>

<p>If these Asian-Americans are intelligent enough, they'll take their rejections from Harvard or even Vanderbilt and go to any school and become great successes. But what's disturbing is not the fact that Asian-Americans are getting snubbed at Ivy League schools; that's a rather frivolous complaint when compared to the real problems in society. But it's the idea that there's a so-called meritocracy that's saturated with the age-old stereotypes and dehumanization which are then used to justify oppression, injustice, war, etc. It's much bigger than just college.</p>

506

<p>epiph - "Again, with the lack of science. </p>

<h2>And again, "groups" are not admitted to Universities, individuals are. Any individual who can stand out in any academically positive & promising way -- not "against" "type" or "within" his/her group, but among the thousands of applicants to that college -- is the individual who will get noticed, regardless of race."</h2>

<p>The "lack of science" is the assumption that you have made that Asian-Am applicants, as a whole, don't possess these "other qualities" in about the same proportion as other groups of applicants. </p>

<h2>When I pointed out that studies have shown that Asian-Am applicants have the same type of extracurricular activities as white applicants - you then tried to "explain away" the disparity by implying that Asian applicants don't have the same level of commitment and are insincere about their interests.</h2>

<p>epiph -
[quote]
They care rather about the role and possibly the difference you've made, & about the degree of commitment, & about whether the interest is sincere or posed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Which is in line with your previous insinuations about the characteristics of Asian-Am applicants - despite your denials as to such.</p>

<hr>

<p>monwaiting - "If these are depicting white qualities, then you are racist yourself. Are YOU assuming that Asians cannot compete in these areas? If so, you're dead wrong. Are you assuming that whites naturally fit into these categories as well? Wrong."</p>

<hr>

<p>Uhhhh - that's why I put "" around the term "white qualities" - since they really aren't white qualities (btw, nice to see that you used the standard strategy of attacking the messenger -used by people w/o a credible argument).</p>

<p>And it is my assertion that Asian-Am applicants, overall, are NOT lacking in these qualities in comparison to other applicant pools - hence, my argument that the lower acceptance rates of Asian-Am applicants is problematic (you seem to be having a problem with reading comprehension - I don't know how you got to your conclusion as to what I have been saying).</p>

<hr>

<p>momwaiting - "Whether these are "white qualities" or not, they are what these schools want. Why would a student who didn't want to be in this kind of environment choose an Ivy? The prestige of these schools comes from both the quality of the education and the kind of people who graduate, and the last is tied to the type of people they admit. Because leadership, natural curiosity, and complexity are found in people of all races, these schools are much more racially diverse than they were even 20 years ago. There is a reason why these schools are so difficult to get into - and it has nothing to do with race."</p>

<hr>

<p>Unless "leadership", "curiosity", and "complexity" are found in the various applicant pools in varying degrees - and if the % of Asian-Am applicants having these qualities is roughly the same as for that of other applicants - then how do you explain the fact that Asians have the LOWEST acceptance rate?</p>

<p>Let's not be naive here. These universities have a huge interest in keeping their ties to the monied elite and the upper-middle class - which is why the bulk of their student body comes from these classes.</p>

<p>Plus - there is also the fear of "white flight" - just as you see in towns/regions with a high % of blacks, Hispanics or Asians - there's a tipping point where the established community starts feeling uncomfortable and start to leave.</p>

507

<p>Epiph, I wouldn't even respond to this total hogwash. Anyone who can read can easily see you've never claimed what this guy is trying to put in your mouth. I think it would be just totally useless to even respond to it. But, you know, I can understand if you are gonna do it. </p>

<p>I would normally say this only in private, but I am posting here publicly so that people who don't wish to read all of this total nonsense coming from this cat, will just know that one other person who has followed these posts closely, rejects this guy's position outright. I am all for disagreements. I in fact love disagreements because it is fun to come against new ideas that slam against my illusions (and I admit I have some serious blind spots when it comes to race and things of that nature). But when disagreement turns into just outright misrepresentations (down home we call them "lies"), well, what is there really left to do except just change the subject and talk about something like the weather?</p>

<p>It is really just nasty to try to claim epiphany has said all this nonsense against Asians when in fact she has done nothing at all of the sort.</p>

<p>I like weather that is nice and cold, preferrably at or below freezing. It hasn't been that cold in these parts - at least not very much. I am sad about that. Maybe Al Gore is right. Maybe the Arctic shelves and stuff really are falling. Hmmm.</p>

508

<p>in response to sfgiants post # 502.</p>

<p>Actually schools are more aware that there are more blacks attending elite schools who are either recent immigrants, or the 1st generation children of african and carribean immigrants and not african american students who have multigenerational roots here in the U.S. (who affirmative action was suppose to help) and are making efforts to do more outreach to attract this population. Recent changes to the common application now include place of birth and if a person is a green card holder, the application does ask for your original country. </p>

<p>Harvard has addressed this in their article roots and race</p>

<p><a href="http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

509

<p>Thank you, Drossel:).</p>

<p>I was coming around to the same conclusion as you. Like you, though, I like to give my debater(s) the extra mile, or two, whatever the subject, to end the argument on an intellectual note, even if it's agreeing to disagree. </p>

<p>I also do not think there is clarity in the above post criticizing comments by another poster, whose views have been similarly distorted, i.m.o.</p>

<p>I'm also not sure what is meant (above) by "lower" acceptance rates. Is that "lower" than the number of blacks who apply (to the same schools), Hispanics who apply, whites who apply? That there are lower acceptance rates, proportional to applicants, for East Asians than for Anglo Americans?</p>

<p>Hmm.</p>

<p>It's literally freezing here. Snowed just north of us. Takes some getting use to. Colder on the West,West Coast than where our daughters are!</p>

510

<p>'Those who claim to understand that "scores aren't everything" still resort to the "Asians must have higher SATs" and "URMs have SATs lower than whites and Asians" arguments as discrimination against Asians.' This is not difficult for us "textureless math grind" to understand. An individual is a single data point, there are other factors to be considered in admission, so individual who claims he is unfairly rejected even if he has high score would not have a strong case. When you have a collection of data, a lot of the other factors would cancel out. With one individual you may claim that he has weak EC, but with a group some may have weak EC and some may have strong EC. So the effect of EC cancels out. If a whole group need to have a much higher average SAT to be admitted, then there is sign that discrimination exists.</p>

511

<p>
[quote]
Epiph, I wouldn't even respond to this total hogwash.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I hope you're not referring to my posts because my post was in response to such posts as:</p>

<p>This is nothing more than pointing out actual, factual, TRENDS that college admissions committees find after reading hundreds of thousands of applications over a period of years. They try to create a diverse environment, and the majority of Asians do fit a stereotype. - GoldShadow</p>

<p>***Their argument makes sense.</p>

<p>Many of the Asians are so "smart", because their parents forced them to study their ass off at SATs and their classes, not because they "care" or "want" to do something.*** - Tomtomtom</p>

<p>Hate to say it, but that's the Asian stereotype right there...putting college/school before everything, even personal beliefs...I think THAT is what colleges are trying to avoid. It's a particular type of person who is unfortunately more common among Asian populations than among white/black/Hispanic populations, and so it's unfortunately become the stereotype for Asians as a whole. - sep092</p>

<p>What do you expect schools to do then? Say they can fill schools 75% with qualified Asians who fit the stereotype, should they do this? Or should they try and keep a reasonable racial balance? Asians are already represented in top schools 10x what their population proportion is. It could definitely be worse. - 19382</p>

<p>I don't think many Asians realize the type of schools HYPS are trying to build. They are trying to build schools filled with diversity, not just hard workers. - viccissititudes</p>

512

<p>Arguing the merits of AA is like arguing the merits of SATs or AP classes. Colleges want what they want. The admissions committee has sat down and discussed the types of students it wants to admit, the diversity of the class (academic interests), a push to look for minority students, and all that other stuff. If a college does not want 50% Asian and wants to have atleast 10% URM, that is the college's choice. Noone is guaranteed admission to any top college regardless of scores, achievements, etc. If your stats are superb, you will probably feel like you have been cheated of your spot at a college while someone less qualified was accepted. Well, thats just the way life works sometimes, and everyone feels like that at some point in their lives. It is fine to argue the merits of AA, but at the end of the day, the colleges decide what is important to them and admit students accordingly. If you do not agree with the AA policies used by top colleges, do not apply to them. Maybe if Asians decided not to apply to HYPSM, those schools would realize that they need to rethink their admissions policies if colleges without AA like UCs and Michigan schools are out performing them.</p>

513

<p>I agree with venakter, private school can do whatever they like, and they will do it whether you like it or not.</p>

<p>Personally I would not recommend anyone (of any ethnicity) to go to HYPS for undergraduate work unless their family income is below 60K (or whatever the cutoff is) and can get in for free. If you want to go, do it in graduate school.</p>

<p>I keep hearing this HYP obsession, I think it is more a east coast thing. Here in the west coast public school, I don't find much HYP obsession.</p>

514

<p>
[quote]
If you do not agree with the AA policies used by top colleges, do not apply to them. Maybe if Asians decided not to apply to HYPSM, those schools would realize that they need to rethink their admissions policies if colleges without AA like UCs and Michigan schools are out performing them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's a good point. If all the Asians started applying elsewhere and some of the top schools ended up with a lot of Bushes (of the George W. and Reggie kind), perhaps there'd be a change in mindset.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I agree with venakter, private school can do whatever they like, and they will do it whether you like it or not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Agreed, but I don't think lying or misleading is one of them. America runs on the idea that its top schools are within reach to those who have the brains and guts. But is that true?</p>

515

<p>
[quote]
Agreed, but I don't think lying or misleading is one of them. America runs on the idea that its top schools are within reach to those who have the brains and guts. But is that true?

[/quote]
I think it is, and that it becomes clear when we realize we ain’t in China, where rote learning rules the day, and where you prep for “question ocean” until you drop dead. This is America, where men like MLK have proven repeatedly that brainpower and guts are measured by more than a test.</p>

<p>I do hope Asians never decide to abandon HYPS because I see they add a lot to these schools. Everyone will lose out if they leave. But if they leave, they will be the biggest losers of all. There are enough intensely creative and intelligent whites to fill all of HYPS’s entering classes every year for the next fifty years. Many of these whites are rich. And they have strengths that are every bit as great or better than those offered by Asians. Merely because Asians study hard for the SAT and as a result have marginally higher scores than whites is no reason for them to gain an inflated opinion of their value. HYPS was at the very apex of human education long before Asians began at these schools. The Asians schools are still not as great as HYPS, though they have practically nothing but Asians attending them. Berkeley is not as great as HYPS, though it has a student body that is almost half Asian.</p>

<p>Please don’t read this as a racist post. The point is, that this little veiled threat of an Asian defection is no threat at all. We all have something to offer one another, and as Americans we ought to begin trying to find ways to offer it. But if one group should decide it does not want to play, then I say to that group “Bye”.</p>

516

<p>Still proud to be asian! I'm in a relatively good school full of asians. I don't know I stood out (i'm guessing because of my art portfolio AP score and my low math SAT scores? lol)</p>

<p>Actually I'm totally opposite of that view of asians- I'm an art major, and I can't do math to save my life (I've taken up to AP Calculus BC though, I wasn't good at it though) and I hate science... although I took all the AP sciences available at my school except AP physics. I hate science with exception of Environmental science because it's fairly easy and I like learning about nature and stuff like that.</p>

<p>i also didn't learn art the 'asian' way where they grind the basics into your brain. I wish I got some of that, although not all of that (everybody ends up drawing very similarly)</p>

<p>I had somewhat of those asian parents who push you real hard and stuff, but my bro took most of that. I wasn't the failure though (although to some extent I was) they considered me the artsy one because I wanted to be a graphic novel artist (Manhwa anyone?) so they just let me watch animations and read comic books all I want. =_=;; they gave up on me having all A's after my freshman year, although I did get in alot of trouble for having B's on my transcript (that's when they stopped caring about my grades so much too)</p>

<p>I did grow up with an asian beating though (I know all you asians out there got it.. unless you had sissy american asian parents! no seriously kidding but you know what I'm talking about)</p>

517

<p>I was thinking if Asians don't apply it may be like the whole Montgomery bus boycott that MLK did. It wouldn't be for as good of a cause (not by a long shot) but if Asians are really shafted by these top schools (I don't believe it, but I don't know everything), then maybe we shouldn't apply. Maybe when these colleges lose a very important 20% of their class, they will see that they should treat Asians and Whites equally. I agree with what Drosselmeier says, and don't recomend boycottig top colleges, but what do I know.</p>

518

<p>I never said boycott HYPS. I said from cost benefit analysis, it is not worthwhile for any ethnic group to go to HYP for undergraduate work (unless you can get in for free or you car is worth more than 1 year of HYPS cost). Remember the study that for students who were accepted to the Ivies but goes elsewhere, there was no effect on their eventual earning power?So why not try alternatives.</p>

<p>When Feynman was rejected by Columbia because he was a jew, he went to MIT. It sounds like he went to the better university. But back then MIT was a great engineering school, but not a research university. MIT's rise to a great research university was partly due to defense research funding, but you still need the top professors and students. Bronx high school of science is now considered one of the nation's top high school, but back then HYP avoid it like plague, because it means that only the student was likely a jew, but also the wrong class of jew. These "textureless math grinds" had to go somewhere, and they ended up at MIT. So did other talented jews Also jewish professor rejected by Harvard ended up at MIT. With funding and great people, MIT slowly became a top university. However, HYP now still are the top research universities. The talent transfer built up MIT, but did not ruin HYP.</p>

<p>It was not the jews boycotted HYP, it was HYP boycotted the jews.</p>

519

<p>^Penn had a similar rise as MIT due to admitting more Jews than HYP (yay quaker beliefs)</p>

520

<p>penn has not always been so nice to Jewish students, venkater...if fact, the only ivy that wasn't avoiding them like the plague at the turn of the 20th century until the 1960s was brown...they admitted students of any faith since its founding...true, it was started as a baptist college, but it always admitted (male) students of any religion.</p>