<p>IMO, even if such things r followed at ivy level, then we should NOT use atleast the boycott Idea...it will b dangerously harmful to every ethnic group...there are much better harmless options which r always available..</p>
<p>Here's an interesting quote from AdOfficer -</p>
<p>
[quote]
And while I would agree with you that Jewish-Americans are over-represented with respect to their numbers in the American population, there has been a serious backlash against these students in the admissions offices at many schools recently; these students are being excluded consciously because of worries that there are "too many" of them at these schools and are very, very blatantly being held to a higher standard than anyone else. I've witnessed this personally in several admissions offices in the northeast; I've yet to see this with any other students. I feel like you are speaking and reacting out of personal frustration and, believe me, I can in many ways see several of the points you are making, but I strongly disagree with you that Jews are somehow being privileged in the admissions process at elite institutions (and I've got no personal stake here - I'm not Jewish). What is happening to some Jewish applicants in the admission process at some schools is conscious and blatant and everyone seems to be okay with it or ignoring it; I don't see Asian-Americans being treated this way - or any other groups being treated this way..."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So basically - AdOfficer is stating that Jews DO face discrimination in the admissions process while Asian-Am applicants DO NOT - simply based on his personal observations or 2nd hand info. - despite the fact that several authors/researchers have stated the same thing with regard to Asian-Am applicants based on numerous interviews with admissions officers and the fact that Jews (for example) are 4 times more "over"-represented in the Ivy League than Asians (in proportion to their % of the pop.).</p>
<p>No doubt that there continues to be instances of bias against Jewish applicants - but for AdOfficer to state that there is a bias against Jewish applicants while adamantly insisting there isn't one against Asian applicants is **mind-boggling<a href="to%20say%20the%20least">/b</a>.</p>
<p>Asians classification is way too comprehensive, because Indians are grouped along with the entire Asian category. The stereotype hardly fits because, IMHO, Indians (being one) are not as hardworking or studious as the Chinese, but we still got some of those "skills" that all CCer's generally have (to some extent or another). Show me an Indian which completely fits the Asian stereotype, and I'll show you a real exception.</p>
<p>just my two cents..</p>
<p>Guess my dad lied to me about Penn and Jews. I guess that also does not explain the fact that my school has a fair number of legacies from Penn who are Jewish. O well.</p>
<p>Also, there are lots of hard working Indians with insane stats. My classmate is an Indian male, lots of research, sings classical Indian music, placed well at some competitions, 2390 SAT, very good grades, taken all science APs, deferred from MIT. How can Indians not fit the "Asian" stereotype if in India college admissions is very test based and students swarm to engineering and medicine?</p>
<p>haha - i was just kidding about Indians not really being asian.</p>
<p>I'm white and not Asian and I think racial stereotypes are wrong on any level.
I think nationality wise, there are certain generalities.<br>
I know very few Asian Americans(the ones I know are very assimilated with America culturally), but lots of Asians from China and Thailand. </p>
<p>However, let me stereotype here:</p>
<p>The ones from the People's Republic of China, in general, are very specialized and concerned with numbers and grades and competitive standing, more than with material and subject matter. The ones I know are great guys; but it is the current atmosphere in their totalitarian government, I believe, that causes close mindedness. I think this is how education works in China and I think that it is shallow and I find it disturbing that the rest of the world is slowly following this oppressive lead in education. </p>
<p>However, all people should be proud of their heritage and shouldn't face any racial discrimination in colleges. I thought that article presented a lot of ignorant racism.</p>
<p>Just don't put your race down when you apply to a college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The ones from the People's Republic of China, in general, are very specialized and concerned with numbers and grades and competitive standing, more than with material and subject matter. The ones I know are great guys; but it is the current atmosphere in their totalitarian government, I believe, that causes close mindedness. I think this is how education works in China and I think that it is shallow and I find it disturbing that the rest of the world is slowly following this oppressive lead in education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What you're pointing out is the key difference between cultural and racial differences. Cultural stereotypes often have a degree of truth in them. For example, if I meet a French person who was born and raised in France, I can reasonably assume that he or she likes drinking wine. That's a cultural assumption. A racial assumption would be if I saw a French-looking person and judging on appearances alone, I presumed to know what they were like. Fortunately for white people, most people appreciate the differences amongst nationalities (American, French, Russian, etc.). Unfortunately for Asians, most people don't care to differentiate amongst nationalities (American, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.) and assume that if a person looks Asian, they're all of a collective mindset that is not affected by their circumstances.</p>
<p>In the Pacific Northwest, I'm happy to report, some people do recognize differences between Asians and ask about cultural, historical, social, political factors in relation to our place in American society as individuals and as a collective.</p>
<p>It may depend on whether there is a visible Asian community, when one speaks of how others view us.</p>
<p>"Unfortunately for Asians, most people don't care to differentiate amongst nationalities (American, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.) and assume that if a person looks Asian, they're all of a collective mindset that is not affected by their circumstances."</p>
<p>You do not see your own assumptions & prejudices, yourself? "Most people"? (And I assume that would be "most non-Asians"?) I don't think so. So those of us who have lived in Japan, studied in grad school with Vietnamese, have close Korean friends, and teach Chinese-Americans: we can't see distinctions?</p>
<p>Perhaps you meant, most uneducated people? Most uninformed people?</p>
<p>And so do college admissions committees see these differences. I can tell you that Columbia particularly sees them, as evidenced by some of their Early results over the last couple of years, reported on CC.</p>
<p>"Unfortunately for Asians, most people don't care to differentiate amongst nationalities (American, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.) and assume that if a person looks Asian, they're all of a collective mindset that is not affected by their circumstances."</p>
<p>Bogus, unsubstantiated generalization made by another poster with a "victim" mindset.</p>
<p>"Fortunately for white people, most people appreciate the differences amongst nationalities (American, French, Russian, etc.). "</p>
<p>Gee, that's really interesting. In all my years growing up in Hawaii where I was a minority haole at a majority-Asian high school, I do not remember any of my Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Pilipino or Cambodian friends ever asking me ONCE about my caucasian heritage. Seems like they just considered all of us haoles the same.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Just don't put your race down when you apply to a college.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Yeah, maybe the admissions officers at Princeton wouldn't have figured out that Jian Li happens to sound very Chinese. This has been gone over before, and they can almost always tell from your name.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Gee, that's really interesting. In all my years growing up in Hawaii where I was a minority haole at a majority-Asian high school, I do not remember any of my Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Pilipino or Cambodian friends ever asking me ONCE about my caucasian heritage. Seems like they just considered all of us haoles the same.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's a really good point. If you're saying that all minorities within a given group are stereotyped, you're probably right. I feel that people who moved into the subgroup where they're a minority would be especially sensitive to that stereotyping (you, for example, are part of a Caucasian majority, but in your school you were a minority "haole")... so while Asian-Americans who grew up in the Caucasian culture adapt easily (I'm fairly assimilated, and probably identify more with Caucasian culture than Chinese) those who immigrated or who were sheltered in their own subgroup tend to not only be stereotyped but also perpetuate stereotypes on their own... I can't count the number of times people have been surprised that I'm not interested in pre-med or engineering.</p>
<p>Bay,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Bogus, unsubstantiated generalization made by another poster with a "victim" mindset.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Curious.</p>
<p>Do some supporters of affirmative action, particularly Black supporters, have "victim" mindsets?</p>
<p>My son is half Filipino and half white. I suggested that he apply as Hispanic, since the Philippines was colonized by Spain just the same as Central and South America were. We didn't do that but I wonder if there is such a thing as Asian-Hispanic for Filipinos. Hispanics seem to benefit more from AA than Asians do.</p>
<p>Taken from another forum....my fingers are getting tired, and I have so much Calc, Chem, and Physics stuff to do. Hop you don't mind...</p>
<p>Study Says Skin Tone Affects Earnings
Jan 26, 7:21 PM (ET)
By Travis Loller</p>
<p>
[quote]
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Light-skinned immigrants in the United States make more money on average than those with darker complexions, and the chief reason appears to be discrimination, a researcher says.</p>
<p>Joni Hersch, a law and economics professor at Vanderbilt University, looked at a government survey of 2,084 legal immigrants to the United States from around the world and found that those with the lightest skin earned an average of 8 percent to 15 percent more than similar immigrants with much darker skin.</p>
<p>"On average, being one shade lighter has about the same effect as having an additional year of education," Hersch said.</p>
<p>The study also found that taller immigrants earn more than shorter ones, with an extra inch of height associated with a 1 percent increase in income.</p>
<p>Other researchers said the findings are consistent with other studies on color and point to a skin-tone prejudice that goes beyond race.</p>
<p>Hersh took into consideration other factors that could affect wages, such as English-language proficiency, education, occupation, race or country of origin, and found that skin tone still seemed to make a difference in earnings.</p>
<p>That means that if two similar immigrants from Bangladesh, for example, came to the United States at the same time, with the same occupation and ability to speak English, the lighter-skinned immigrant would make more money on average.</p>
<p>"I thought that once we controlled for race and nationality, I expected the difference to go away, but even with people from the same country, the same race - skin color really matters," she said, "and height."</p>
<p>Although many cultures show a bias toward lighter skin, Hersch said her analysis shows that the skin-color advantage was not due to preferential treatment for light-skinned people in their country of origin. The bias, she said, occurs in the U.S.</p>
<p>Economics professor Shelley White-Means of the University of Tennessee at Memphis said the study adds to the growing body of evidence that there is a "preference for whiteness" in America that goes beyond race.</p>
<p>Hersch drew her data from a 2003 federal survey of nearly 8,600 new immigrants. The survey used an 11-point scale for measuring skin tone, in which 0 represents an absence of color and 10 the darkest possible skin tone.</p>
<p>From those nearly 8,600 participants, she focused on the more than 2,000 who were working and whose skin tone had been recorded during face-to-face interviews.</p>
<p>William Darity Jr., an economics professor at the University of North Carolina, said Hersch's findings are similar to a study he co-authored last year on skin tone and wages among blacks.</p>
<p>"We estimate that dark- or medium-skinned blacks suffered a discriminatory penalty of anywhere from 10 percent to 15 percent relative to whites," he said. "This suggests people cue into appearance and draw inferences about capabilities and skills based on how they look."</p>
<p>Darity said it is not clear whether the bias is conscious or subconscious.</p>
<p>Hersch said her findings, which will be presented at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science next month in San Francisco, could support discrimination lawsuits based not on race, but on color.</p>
<p>"There are very few color discrimination suits, but they are on the rise," she said. "But these suits can be hard to prove."
[/quote]
</p>
<hr>
<p>Color-blind, indeed. Does that mean there is inequity pre-college? Maybe. Does it affect primary and secondary school opportunities? Maybe. Does it affect household income? Maybe. Does it affect social interactions? Maybe.
Does it exert a socio-economic and/or a socio-political force on those discriminated against pre-college? Maybe.</p>
<p>So, why would you ignore that there is discrimination (and it's root causes)that makes people unequal when considering an application holistically at private colleges?</p>
<p>Rather than attempt to modify the behavior of the majority against color identity, what makes one think that color-neutral policies would protect against positive (rather than normative) inequity?</p>
<p>Fab's question, BTW, can be asked other ways to get a desired outcome: </p>
<p>"Do some Asians, who do not support AA, have victim mindsets when it comes to their candidacy to private colleges that use a holistic process when choosing who to accept, deny, or waitlist?" </p>
<p>"Do some Asians benefit from being light skinned compared to other minority groups (making them profit from the color of their skin)?"</p>
<p>Bay,</p>
<p>While growing up in Hawaii...I, too, saw discrimination against white friends because of their ethnicity or race (i.e. lack of Asian-ness). Some of my non-Asian friends did not understand or were not made aware of cultural or social norms and were left to fend for themselves. The were rediculed at times, and tolerated more generally because they either brough needed skills or infused money into the Hawaiian economy.</p>
<p>The point being that Asians in Hawaii can be just as discriminatory as the majority can be in the Continental US, whether through marginalization culturally, socially, or politically.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Color-blind, indeed. Does that mean there is inequity pre-college? Maybe. Does it affect primary and secondary school opportunities? Maybe. Does it affect household income? Maybe. Does it affect social interactions? Maybe.
Does it exert a socio-economic and/or a socio-political force on those discriminated against pre-college? Maybe.</p>
<p>So, why would you ignore that there is discrimination (and it's root causes)that makes people unequal when considering an application holistically at private colleges?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From the article, the exact same argument can be made for height. Short people are on unequal ground so let's include AA for them too.</p>
<p>American whites have less solidarity than other races. When I walk into a room, I find it easier to talk to another Indian than another random person of any other skin type (don't ask why, I really don't know why). When white people walk into a room full of strangers where they are the minority do they feel more comfortable talking to the few other whites, or do they just talk to whomever seems more friendly? I really don't know becasue I havn't walked a day in a white person's shoes.</p>