<p>AA isn't promoting colleges or others to look at black people as "inferior". Anybody whose not in complete denial realizes that it is a fact that african americans are currently at a disadvantage in society. And they also realize that something needs to be done to solve this problems; Darwinism isn't going to "eventually even things out" it would just continue to get worse and worse until oppression resumes.</p>
<p>fabrizio,
Where you do get "dissociation from the American identity" from previous posts?</p>
<p>The theoretical that you're arguing is (again) an ideal that does not exist. That is not to say that it might exist in some foreseeable future. I'm talking practicalities, here, by the way, not good-will toward others, or whether your classmates may perceive that they have more opportunities & fewer racial barriers than earlier generations might have had (regardless of region).</p>
<p>The research proves over and over that the single most important elements to student success, K-12, are (a) level of parental education, and (b) level of parental support. One could add a (c), in that income -- if & when used to support & supplement education including enrichment education -- also advantages a student, versus students who lack one of these elements, let alone all 3 of these elements.</p>
<p>There's a reason for that: it's patterning, it's role-modeling. Parents are teachers in the broad sense of the word: they reinforce, they explain, & occasionally they tutor or directly teach supplementally. "Dad, please help with this calculus problem," etc. Pretty hard to help the requesting student when the parent has not the background. We teachers deal with these kinds of gaps daily. The students with educated parents soar above those without, especially if there is a work ethic behind that as well. Ambitious immigrants (particularly those from Asia) often have a work ethic, but not the advanced education, so they really have almost 2 out of 3 elements: (1) unambiguous support of educational goals, and (2) whatever income they <em>do</em> have they <em>do</em> often use educationally, when possible. (Or with arts supplementation, such as private music lessons, a specialty art course, etc.)</p>
<p>Immigrants have often been raised in struggle -- indeed in great poverty sometimes (and those are often particularly looked at carefully in college admissions) -- but struggle is not class despair, necessarily. Immigrants who come here to improve their educational & economic lot come with the <em>assumption</em>, the <em>expectation</em> that they will succeed. That in itself is psychologically profound. That is why urban charter schools with largely minority populations have found that they must make a tremendous push toward high expectations. (It does NOT come organically.) They are supporting exactly what Drosselmeier expressed in his post about fighting against doing what comes "logically" for that community: giving up, acceding to the lowest common cultural denominator.</p>
<p>The second important counter-energy to despair ("logical expectations') has been to provide a critical mass of role models. That is why, for example, one will often see a separate category of scholarship (usually a Leadership scholarship) for black achievement. It's because that recognition is uniquely valuable, in a way that would not be as critical for a majority community. The hope in awarding these scholarships is that such minorities will inspire others of their like ethnicity.</p>
<p>Bottom line: minority communities have the same goals of surpassing racial definitions & limitations & descriptions that many people on CC do, but they also accept that to get there, education has to become the norm in the community, not the exception. One way for education (& superior accomplishment) to become the norm is to provide those opportunities for the most determined among them.</p>
<p>In urban communities in my region, high school graduates who merely attend community college will frankly have as their classmates only students who look very much like themselves, whose backgrounds are very similar, whose parents (& parental goals) are very similar. (Education-deprived.) OTOH, if they attend a highly regarded U, an entire world of possibilities opens up to them, mentally & emotionally. They are also, by that, more likely to marry a similarly educated person, which in turn will help reduce the cycle of non-achievement that they themselves had to work against. It will begin to advantage their own children, so that eventually racial factors in admission considerations will be less & less a factor. We're not even vaguely there yet.</p>
<p>Tyler09,</p>
<p>Before you say that there is "no way" that race-blind admissions increases the number of Black LAWYERS, you'd be advised to at least glance over Dr. Richard Sander's paper, "A Systemic Analysis..." If you understand the simple economic principle of responding to incentives, then you would realize that there is no contradiction. I am most definitely not upset at the prospect of more young, smart, and confident Black lawyers. Rather, I welcome it.</p>
<p>Find one part of my argument that is tantamount to your, "hey...uh, we're sorry. You're free now so.....good luck!" claim. I believe that racial preferences are not the way to help Blacks. They, like other Americans, are only helped when they are forced to meet the same high standards others meet. Blacks deserve equal treatment, not preferential treatment. There is a difference.</p>
<p>Affirmative action is truly a cheap way out. It does wonders for the white redemptive liberals but almost nothing for the Blacks they purport to help.</p>
<p>This thread has gotten more and more entertaining.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>From post 593,</p>
<p>
[quote]
...We have got to get large numbers of blacks feeling themselves to be full-fledged American natives who own the country as much as everyone else.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dissociation from the American identity. To me, Drosselmeier is saying that many Blacks do not feel themselves to be full-fledged American natives.</p>
<p>He claims that this affects a lot of Blacks, but based on my experience, all of my Black friends are proud to be Americans. And, I live in a "pit" south of the Mason Dixon line. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that there are more Black students at my high school than in the entire community where Drosselmeier lives, given his aversion to the Deep South.</p>
<p>I agree with you that parents are very important. I credit both my father and my mother with the academic support they've given me over the years. I do not take it for granted. While I still find Tarhunt's labeling me as a child of privilege comical, in this regard I must admit that I am privileged to have such caring parents.</p>
<p>If these leadership scholarships you speak of are privately funded, I have no complaints. Groups are targeting students they want to target. What right have I to tell a special interest group what to do?</p>
<p>I believe that the most determined among disadvantaged Americans will find that their hard work pays off. To borrow a phrase from lilybbloom, it may not be Harvard or Princeton, but it will be an institution where they can continue to develop their abilities.</p>
<p>Are these high school graduates in your region entitled to admission to a highly regarded university? Just a question.</p>
<p>they are no more nor less entitled than others who have similar academic qualifications. For example, they are no more or less entitled than those who are graduates of NE prep schools, or whose parents assume and expect their children to be accepted to "highly regarded" institutions.</p>
<p>A student of any ethnic background, if he or she performs to an average or less than average degree, would doubtless not be accepted to any highly regarded institution, and probably few would even apply to such. If a student is community college material, then he or she is comm. college material, period. (Of course, some quite capable students choose to attend 2 yrs. of c.c. for financial reasons.)</p>
<p>It would be the exception to those above, but who might live in deprived surroundings (and generally with parents of approximately a 3rd-4th grade equivalent education, even if those parents hold a h.s.diploma, btw) -- and who has strived enormously, succeeded exceptionally, & demonstrates uncommon motivation despite such circumstances, who would get considered closely at the least.</p>
<p>"So explain why Jews make up nearly 40% of the student body at some Ivies and 26% of the overall Ivy student body - is this "diversity" (esp. since Jews only make up 1.5% of the college applicant pool)?"</p>
<p>I don't see any Jewish people on this thread complaining that they're being discriminated against in college admissions. Perhaps Jewish applicants present a wider variety of backgrounds/accomplishments than do Asians? </p>
<p>"And there aren't poor Asians or whites? Asians actually have one of the higher poverty rates (not to mention cultural/language barriers for new immigrants) and numerically, there are more poor whites than any other group."</p>
<p>I don't think the Asians on this board who are complaining about being discriminated against are poor. </p>
<p>"So why should the elite, white Hispanics get an advantage when they are already from the advantaged class? Aren't you always making an issue about the those that are "entitled"?"</p>
<p>I never said I thought they should have an advantage. But they bring diversity to college campuses, which is what I've been advocating for this entire time.</p>
<p>Why was this thread moved into the cafe?</p>
<p>Also, this should die. now. I feel bad for bumping it up, but really want to know why it was moved to the cafe.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is indeed a reason for why it was their choice, no quotation marks needed. The prom is run entirely by the students. It is only appropriate for them to make their own decision.
[/quote]
All you are saying here is that âthe reason those students chose to have segregated proms is because it was their choice.â. This explains nothing, certainly not why it has been their choice for their entire time down there in that pit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I live pretty far below the Mason Dixon line, and it is anything but a pit. Given that some Black Yale students have reported cold treatment from their classmates in the laundry areas of their dorms, the "pit" I live in is a lot more appreciative of "diversity" than New England. (I placed quotation marks around diversity because my usage in this context is closer to how you define it.)
[/quote]
Great. Enjoy it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course it existed before affirmative action. Hence, my use of the words "legacy" and "maintain." I agree with you that affirmative action in its current form was a result of whites wanting to prove that they weren't racists.
[/quote]
You appear unwilling to deal with the attack directly before you, so you must recast my statement into something I did not say. If you think you must do this, then have at it. No thinking person will buy it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, I think simpler makes more sense than simplistic. It's a fundamental concept to me, albeit novel for others. Race just doesn't matter when it comes to participating in university life, plain and simple.
[/quote]
Very well. If you mean simpler, then fine. I still think it is simplistic. You say not, I say so. And we will just leave it at that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Other groups have not had centuries of cultural capital in the United States. The current student body at U.C. Berkeley belies your "natural leg up" argument.
[/quote]
The groups these people represent brought vast amounts of cultural capital with them, especially since many of them contained immigrants who came here willingly, who were educated, and who had the hope of bettering their lives. That is a tremendous amount of capital that blacks were disallowed. Indeed, for most of our history here, we were disallowed the accumulation of this sort of capital by American law. No other group has endured this. And it makes all the difference in the world.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I absolutely agree with you that voting simply to counter you is petty and pointless. Rather, my vote would be a contribution to furthering an ideal our nation was founded upon - equal treatment for all. It would also be a rejection of the reactionary preferential treatment system you staunchly defend.
[/quote]
Well, when I vote, I wonât even have you in mind. Indeed, I will not even have anti-AA people in mind. I will only vote the truth as I know it, and then let the chips fall. If it falls against me, then I have been faithful to the truth. If it falls for me, the same applies. There will be no anger or despair either way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Compensation. Repair. No matter what word you use, the system you support amounts to nothing more than "getting even."
[/quote]
Well okay. I see it differently. I see that in America we have a problem caused by our governmentâs centuries-long mistreatment of a huge segment of its population, and that that segment now understandably has difficulties in many areas. I think the government has an obligation to help fix the problem it has caused, and it needs to be willing to apply the same intensity of pressure to repair the problem as it applied to create it. This has nothing to do with getting even. It is just a matter of decency. America needs to stop lying and help its people, its own people -- the people it has harmed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do not overlook the fact that Blacks were enslaved for centuries and treated very poorly for another century. I do not dismiss its significance. I do, however, believe that these events should not be used to justify preferential treatment now. Few people say that 'everything is fine now.' I certainly don't. There are problems in our education system. Not all students are getting an equal chance. Therefore, we should try to make sure they do have equal chances starting from youth and continuing to young adulthood.
[/quote]
I do not reject the need for remedies at this level. In my view it is not an either/or proposition. We should do all of the above, also paying special attention to the cases of qualified students who have overcome the inequalities you mention here. That is not preferential treatment. It is acknowledging the preferences against these students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is a true solution, not a fake one that does absolutely nothing to benefit Blacks. Research by Dr. Richard Sander shows that dropping modern affirmative action increases the number of Black lawyers. I don't know about you, but I think more talented Black lawyers can increase the numbers of Blacks "feeling themselves to be full-fledged American natives who own the country as much as everyone else."
[/quote]
Please. Sander is just a shill for Bush. He doesnât even give any account at all to Claude Steeleâs well-demonstrated âstereotype threatâ, and he does not even deal with the differences in treatment between blacks and whites both in schools and law firms. His methodology has been severely criticized by many scholars. A few of them are found here:</p>
<p>In Yale scholars Ian Ayresâ and Richard Brooksâ study of Sanderâs data, black lawyers did</a> not increase at all when Affirmative Action was eliminated. Black lawyers fell by 12.7 percent. They also discovered the same thing that many other scholars, including Derek Bok, have discovered, that black law students do best on the Bar when they attend top schools and HBCUs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
None of my Black friends exhibits the kind of dissociation from the American identity that you seem to have.
[/quote]
Well, since you are running around here trying to claim Barak Obama can be white if he wishes, this coming from you doesnât surprise me one little bit. Also, your tendency to screw with the words of people who disagree with you leaves me in serious doubt whether you have the ability to even hear the real opinions of black people. You may walk around talking about how your friends are all nice and happy, but they are quite possibly telling you stuff you just have been unwilling to hear. Or, they possibly know you canât hear and so they wonât even try to tell you the truth. Or, maybe they really are cool with things as they are. I still think it is quite obvious that far more blacks in America are feeling the heat I describe here, than are living in the fantasyland of your friends. </p>
<p>
[quote]
They are all proud to be Americans, and from talking, joking, and working with them, they all feel they own the country as much as everyone else. Maybe you should visit us in our "pit" sometime. You may be enlightened as to how "diverse" it is.
[/quote]
One can be proud and still see injustice. If your friendsâ pride causes them not to be able to see the reality of so many blacks around them, so that they honestly think the playing field is as level for blacks as it is for everyone else, well, I donât personally have anything more to say on this except that maybe they might consider laying a bit off the sauce.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So Senator Obama looks more Black than White. What about Mr. Blake and Mr. Williams?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here</a> is an image of Blake.There ainât no way anyone in this country is gonna see this guy and claim he is white. At best, they will wonder if he is mixed, or North African or something. But no one is gonna claim âOh, well, of course THAT THERE is a white guy!â. Please. The fact is, he is black and we all know he is. Shoot. Even he knows he is black and that he had no choice but to be black here in this place.</p>
<p>Here</a> is an image of Juan Williams. Thatâs a black dude! There is no way anyone is gonna look at this guy in context of American society and say âlooka that white guy!â At best, at the very best, there will be questions. But generally people are gonna say âThatâs a black guyâ. But, you know, I need to step back a second and evaluate this. You are actually believing that these dark-skinned guys can be white if they wish. The way you are asking the question suggests you are being quite sincere. I really donât know what to make of this. Youâre dead wrong, of course, but stillâŠ</p>
<p>QUOTE:
"You may walk around talking about how your friends are all nice and happy, but they are quite possibly telling you stuff you just have been unwilling to hear. Or, they possibly know you canÂt hear and so they wonÂt even try to tell you the truth."</p>
<p>I have to agree with that. People of ethnic minorities do not always exhibit a frankness about their racial perceptions, etc. among people of different ethnic groups -- including with other, different minorities. When I have become close personal friends with blacks they will, on an individual basis, share quite intimate feelings with me once we have reached a level of trust in the relationship. For example, I'm thinking of a professional person I know, a very successful businesswoman, educated at Dartmouth & later with an MBA from UCLA; even she is not cool & casual about the effect of race. (For one thing, she can't find enough educated black men to date, converse with, and who aren't threatened by her competence & self-confidence.) She faces disapproval/resentment from the black community, & shock from the white community, for succeeding against a stereotype & maintaining a mainstreamed ("white") lifestyle. (Her K-12 education was urban, not suburban.)</p>
<p>Even the most conservative blacks who are public figures (commentators, authors, politicians) are very aware of the effect of race on the shaping of paths to success. I don't know of many of them who have quite the views that you seem to believe, fabrizio. </p>
<p>Race -- like income in a separate way -- is a powerful shaper. That is not the same thing as saying it's rigidly deterministic, which is where I think you get hung up, fabrizio.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>Read again. The students run the prom. Neither your nor I have a right to criticize their decisions.</p>
<p>I only know that you live significantly to the north of the Mason Dixon line. Even with such paltry information, I guarantee you that Black / White relations are far more harmonious at my "pit" than where you reside. I acknowledge that several White students harbor subtle racist attitudes, but they have the courtesy to treat their Black friends with respect in public. They smile, say 'sup?', and laugh with them in the halls and in class. The laundry Yale stories don't happen in this "pit."</p>
<p>I'm unfamiliar with any attack prefacing the "C'mon guy..." part of your post 593. Please point it out to me.</p>
<p>For the n-th time, I recognize that slavery and segregation were terrible and gross injustices. Whining about that doesn't help Blacks now in 2007. Begging for preferential treatment doesn't, either.</p>
<p>The government does not have an obligation to give you preferential treatment. It does, however, have an obligation to treat you equally and to make sure that the public schools in your oh-so-diverse area are equipped sufficiently.</p>
<p>Paying special attention to qualified students who have overcome difficulties is fine. If that's what you support, I'm with you. We have an agreement there. </p>
<p>Dr. Sander is most certainly not a shill for our President. I think you forgot that his wife is Black and his child is mixed. As far as "severe criticism" by "many scholars," Dr. Sander has addressed all his critics, most of whom apparently did not read his paper carefully enough.</p>
<p>His response, "A Reply to Critics," addresses Dr. Claude Steele's stereotype threat theory, particularly in the section addressing Ayres and Broks. </p>
<p>Black students do best on the bar when they attend a school where they are matched. It makes sense intuitively, and it is backed empirically and theoretically.</p>
<p>No, I think your viewpoints represent a small but vocal minority of American Blacks. I admit that I have met a few students like you, people who like to trumpet historical grievances and demand something for nothing. They aren't my friends, and their numbers are a mere fraction compared to my Black friends. Of course, given that you live in a really "diverse" environment, it surprises me not at all that you think most people share your victimhood mentality.</p>
<p>Which you do have, by the way. That's been a consistent theme in your posts regarding affirmative action. Blacks are victims, and thus they deserve special treatment. They were victims, yes, but they don't deserve special treatment. They deserve equal treatment. I know it's a novel concept to you, the idea of equal treatment, but if you remember that you're an American citizen, then maybe you'd like to uphold our nation's best principles instead of making exceptions for your group.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You are actually believing that these dark-skinned guys can be white if they wish.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yup. Mssrs. Obama and Blake have White mothers. Really and truly, they're neither White nor Black; they're mixed. But, instead of choosing White, as I previously wrote, or mixed, which is another possibility, they chose Black.</p>
<p>Are there disadvantages to being non-White in this nation? Yes, of course. Are they as bad as you claim they are? Good god no. You type as if Jim Crow still exists.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but your post 610 is loaded with straw men.</p>
<p>Where have I ever said that race is rigidly deterministic?</p>
<p>May I kindly remind you that I do not believe that a person of race X has a different viewpoint than a person of race Y just because he is of a different race?</p>
<p>By contrast, several parents here believe that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Read again. The students run the prom. Neither your nor I have a right to criticize their decisions.
[/quote]
We most certainly do have this right. But of course the point was not to merely criticize them. It was to explain why it is they âchoseâ as they did, and for the entire time they have existed in their pit. Your simply claiming they chose as they did because it was their right to choose is no explanation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I only know that you live significantly to the north of the Mason Dixon line. Even with such paltry information, I guarantee you that Black / White relations are far more harmonious at my "pit" than where you reside.
[/quote]
The South has long been a place of exquisite harmony between the races, especially during slavery. Iâve never claimed otherwise. It is the source of that harmony that is the problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I acknowledge that several White students harbor subtle racist attitudes, but they have the courtesy to treat their Black friends with respect in public. They smile, say 'sup?', and laugh with them in the halls and in class. The laundry Yale stories don't happen in this "pit."
[/quote]
When you know your place, you get blessed harmony.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For the n-th time, I recognize that slavery and segregation were terrible and gross injustices. Whining about that doesn't help Blacks now in 2007. Begging for preferential treatment doesn't, either.
[/quote]
Here is the problem. When you mention âbeggingâ here, as so many Americans have always done, you suggest a lack of understanding about just what slavery and segregation mean to black people. You indeed dismiss its severity out-of-hand (you do not realize this, but it is quite precisely what you do.), as do vast numbers of Americans. On the other hand, black folk donât perceive any begging at all. That is because they have always been on the suffering end of preferential treatment, where for centuries on end group after group has come to their own country and enjoyed the preferential treatment that allowed them to make progress, while blacks were pointedly denied the same freedom by national law. Blacks are now filled with grievances because of this history, and their grievances are quite legitimate. But for the entire time blacks have been here, America has dismissed their grievances as âwhiningâ. Even when it threw chump-change at blacks (which whites, and Asians, and Hispanics, and native Americans have also taken), for a mere thirty years, it whined against black grievances, never truly addressing them.</p>
<p>The issue here has to do with moral law. When you harm someone, you acquire a moral obligation to rectify that harm by applying an equal and opposite force to the harm you have caused. The harm America has caused blacks was not slavery or Jim Crow. Slavery and Jim Crow were just the legal vehicles by which America caused the harm. The harm America caused blacks is that it took away our sense of place, identity, and belonging. If America is going to fix the harm it has caused, it has to expend the same amount of pressure it expended to harm blacks, toward helping blacks develop a sense of place, and identity as genuine Americans. In this way these people will be able to better accept themselves as natives of America (which is in fact what we are), not of nebulous, generic Africa. With the absence of this dissonance, we will release the past naturally. I know education can help here, especially as a cultural change agent among blacks. I strongly suspect AA helps increase education among blacks so that this needed change in culture can take place more rapidly. I therefore support AA, though with reservation.</p>
<p>It is not a matter of whining to âget evenâ. It is all about correcting the harm of the past in the least painful, and most effective way possible. I do not yet think ending AA will help us meet this goal.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The government does not have an obligation to give you preferential treatment. It does, however, have an obligation to treat you equallyâŠ
[/quote]
An obligation at which it has failed⊠repeatedly⊠for centuries and centuries, deliberately, and by law. Since it has failed to uphold its obligation, it has acquired a duty to correct the harm caused by its failure. That is truly the issue here. But you are so disconnected from this harm that you easily overlook it, even harshly dismissing as âwhinersâ those who feel it and who talk about it. This is quite a large part of the problem. It will not go away. In fact, what goes around is about to come around.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dr. Sander is most certainly not a shill for our President. I think you forgot that his wife is Black and his child is mixed.
[/quote]
Oh yes. How appalling of me to assume it possible for a white guy with a black wife to be a shill of George Bush (sheesh).</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as "severe criticism" by "many scholars," Dr. Sander has addressed all his critics, most of whom apparently did not read his paper carefully enough...
[/quote]
His responses were all based upon the faulty reasoning of his first âstudyâ.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, I think your viewpoints represent a small but vocal minority of American Blacks.
[/quote]
Which is undoubtedly why some 94%</a> of us support AA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I admit that I have met a few students like you, people who like to trumpet historical grievances and demand something for nothing. They aren't my friends, and their numbers are a mere fraction compared to my Black friends.
[/quote]
Yeah, somehow youâve apparently managed to fall in with that six percent of sleeping blacks out their enjoying their American Dream. But those folks, God bless âem, are not living in the real world. Hey, you know, from black folksâ point-of-view, it is America that wants something for nothing. The country actually tried to get it by stealing the lives of our ancestors, thereby stealing our own heritage and inheritance. Then America turned right around and demanded that we, the children of slaves, feel defective because we have the cheekiness to demand a redress of our grievances.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course, given that you live in a really "diverse" environment, it surprises me not at all that you think most people share your victimhood mentality.
[/quote]
There is nothing at all wrong with being a victim, especially when you really are a victim. The wrong comes when victims give up the struggle for what is good and right, and decide to wallow in self-pity. I obviously donât do this. Yet another wrong emerges when those who have created victims decide to denounce their victims in order to avoid their duty to correct the harm they have caused. THAT is the issue we are discussing here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Which you do have, by the way. That's been a consistent theme in your posts regarding affirmative action. Blacks are victims, and thus they deserve special treatment. They were victims, yes, but they don't deserve special treatment.
[/quote]
There is nothing special about helping those you have harmed. It is just the moral thing to do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They deserve equal treatment. I know it's a novel concept to you, the idea of equal treatment, but if you remember that you're an American citizen, then maybe you'd like to uphold our nation's best principles instead of making exceptions for your group.
[/quote]
I am more than happy to uphold Americaâs best principles. The problem is, America has never upheld its best principles, not where black people are concerned. Even when Jefferson was carrying on about all of our rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness and all that nonsense, the whole country deliberately turned away and ignored these rights where blacks were concerned. It kept ignoring them. Even after it ended slavery it still kept ignoring them, eventually causing the harm from which we now suffer. It is doing the same thing today by ignoring its obligation to deliberately fix that harm. Indeed, it now even blames us for being harmed and saying anything about it. âBest principlesâ indeed.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>I was unaware that you wanted an explanation for their choice. If you want one, why don't you venture into the "pit" that is Turner County and ask some residents there?</p>
<p>94, that's a nice number. Of course, you aren't forgetting another poll conducted in 2003, are you?</p>
<p>A Gallup poll conducted in June 2003, a few months after the poll you cited, had the following question:</p>
<p>Do you generally favor or oppose affirmative action programs for racial minorities?</p>
<p>Slightly less than half of all Whites polled who had opinions on the issue expressed support (47%). A majority of all the respondents, however, expressed support. Another question on the survey was</p>
<p>*Which comes closer to your view about evaluating students for admission into a
college or university?</p>
<p>a) An applicant's racial and ethnic background should be considered to help
promote diversity on college campuses, even if that means admitting some
minority students who otherwise would not be admitted?</p>
<p>b) Applicants should be admitted solely on the basis of merit, even if that results
in few minority students being admitted.*</p>
<p>Less than one quarter of Whites expressing an opinion chose A. Seventy-seven percent, an overwhelming majority, selected B. Blacks were the only group who expressed majority support for race-based college admissions. This majority support was signifcantly less than 94%; it was 53%.</p>
<p>Based on my experience in my American Government class, several of my Black classmates voiced support for affirmative action BUT also felt that jobs should be given purely on the basis of merit. She clearly stated that she did not support any form of quota, explicit or implicit. The conclusion? When you actually define what affirmative action is, Drosselmeier, you'll find that the support you think you have isn't as great as it actually is.</p>
<p>I obtain my numbers from Dr. Nieli's survey paper, "The Changing Shape of the River," for your reference.</p>
<p>I take it affirmative action is "chump-change?" I'll agree with you that Black grievances have never truly been addressed. Affirmative action was, after all, an attempt by white redemptive liberals to atone for the sins of their grandfathers. It helped them a whole lot more than it helped Blacks. Why maintain a reactionary half-hearted policy?
You suspect that racial preferences help increase education among Blacks and thus change a culture. Your suspicions are not confirmed by a UCLA law professor who has extensively researched a subfield of this topic. Of course, he's a "shill" for our President, so I don't expect you to trust his findings.
[quote]
In fact, what goes around is about to come around.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Care to elaborate on this?</p>
<p>No, you are not a victim. You're about as much of a victim as Ms. Crystal Gail Magnum is. Unless you are over 100 years old, you were born free, a citizen of the United States of America.</p>
<p>I don't mind it if you poke insults at me, after all, I do the same to you. But, calling Turner County and my place of residence a "pit" is unnecessary. It's also unnecessary to ask my friends to "lay off the sauce."</p>
<p>There is, quite simply, a generational difference between you and I. I acknowledge that our nation has committed deep injustices against Black Americans. Preferential treatment is the wrong way to right that wrong. I don't believe that people are helped when they are insulated from competition.</p>
<p>I'd support affirmative action if it could be honestly shown that it actually helps society, and particularly Blacks. The research just doesn't support that, unfortunately.</p>
<p>As great as our nation is, it isn't great enough to be the first successful test case of affirmative action.</p>
<p>Social engineering in this manner failed in Nigeria, India, Malaysia, and it has failed here, as well.</p>
<p>No straw men on my part. I was addressing specific points you made, fabrizio.</p>
<p>Tyler -
[quote]
I really don't think you DO understand the detrimental impact of slavery, discrimination, and prejudice on african americans in America. Because if you did you would realize that it's not something that you can just go "hey...uh, we're sorry. You're free now so.....good luck!". You can't just ignore the fact that the incredible wrongs of the past have left a tremendous scar on african americans and it's something that NEEDS to be repaired if they are going to truly have equal opportunities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that AA should be used to help disadvantaged African-Americans and other URMs, BUT...</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It's not like other groups, such as Native Americans and Asians haven't faced discrimination (and still do).</p></li>
<li><p>Why should certain African-American applicants, who have the benefit of top notch HS educations and financial resources and yet, have lower scores than their counterparts from the same socio-economic backgrounds, get a "boost" - since they are already on an even playing field?</p></li>
<li><p>Why should recent black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean benefit from AA since they haven't experienced the same things as African-Ams (this is actually a contentious issue w/in the black community)?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>lily -
[quote]
"So explain why Jews make up nearly 40% of the student body at some Ivies and 26% of the overall Ivy student body - is this "diversity" (esp. since Jews only make up 1.5% of the college applicant pool)?"</p>
<p>I don't see any Jewish people on this thread complaining that they're being discriminated against in college admissions. Perhaps Jewish applicants present a wider variety of backgrounds/accomplishments than do Asians?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, Jews have faced previous discrimination with a "quota" system limiting their enrollment and there are still some complaints with regard to bias at certain schools (ahem, Princeton).</p>
<p>As for your contention that "Jewish applicants present a wider variety of backgrounds/accomplishments than do Asians" - that's nothing but pure biased speculation on your part (esp. since a no. of studies have shown that ECs, etc. of Asian applicants are no different from the general applicant pool) - (I see you come from the saem school as epiph).</p>
<p>And actually, Jews are still somewhat stereotyped as having less variety of interests. etc. than WASP applicants (which is why Princeton's revised "holistic" admissions review has gotten flack as a means of limiting Jewish enrollment) - but why do they outnumber WASPs at some Ivy League colleges when Jewish applicants only make up 1.5% of the general applicant pool?</p>
<p>Anyway, my POINT was - if colleges/universities are SO interested in "DIVERSITY" of background, race, ethnicity, culture, etc. as some people here have claimed - then WHY have up to nearly 40% of the student body be comprised of Jewish students (at some schools)?</p>
<p>
[quote]
"And there aren't poor Asians or whites? Asians actually have one of the higher poverty rates (not to mention cultural/language barriers for new immigrants) and numerically, there are more poor whites than any other group."</p>
<p>I don't think the Asians on this board who are complaining about being discriminated against are poor.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But the FACT is that the majority of Asian-Americans represented at the elite universities come from more affluent backgrounds (which explains the higher scores, ECs, etc.). </p>
<p>And Ivy League and other elite universities are known to PROACTIVELY and aggressively recruit from the black immigrant community, whereas they don't bother to recruit from disadvantaged Asian immigrant communities (such as the Hmong, Laotians, poor Chinese, etc.).</p>
<p>And the reason why you don't see too many poor Asians here is precisely the reason why these schools need to be more proactive (they don't have the knowledge, resources, etc.).</p>
<p>The only REASON for this DIFFERENCE in treatment? ...Race.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"So why should the elite, white Hispanics get an advantage when they are already from the advantaged class? Aren't you always making an issue about the those that are "entitled"?"</p>
<p>I never said I thought they should have an advantage. But they bring diversity to college campuses, which is what I've been advocating for this entire time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly how do white Hispanics bring "diversity" to college campuses?</p>
<p>And who brings more diversity to college campuses - Asians from a DIVERSE group of immigrant communities who are actually in tune with their cultural heritage or Asians who grew up in mostly lily white suburbs who, for the most part, are culturally no different from their white counterparts (btw, I fall in the latter category - so it's not like I'm being biased here). Guess which group makes up the vast majority of the Asian student body at the top private universities?</p>
<p>And btw, it's amusing to see how epiph - won't or can't rebut any of the previous points I had made.</p>
<p>Most Jews don't look different from White people. Plus, Jews/Israel are a valuable ally against the dark-skinned Muslim hordes. Therefore, their gross over-representation will be tolerated, while Asians are quota'ed.</p>
<p>"At Vanderbilt, a former admissions staffer offered that Asians 'are very good students, but donÂt provide the kind of intellectual environment' that colleges are looking for."--> person is no longer employed. it says FORMER</p>
<p>fabrizio, AA when used judiciously (applied to the kinds of candidates it was in fact meant to help -- ie., not less capable, not less bright, not less resourceful than other groups) has in fact been responsible for many black success stories. I confess to not having at my fingertips the statistics supporting that. However, many successful blacks today attribute their success to AA in fact (for example, admissions or employment where diversity is specifically sought) or in spirit (an insightful businessperson hiring on an eager candidate with not quite the experience but an abundance of determination; or a lawyer agreeing to take on an apprentice who has a special passion for defense work). </p>
<p>For example, I know quite specifically that my earlier example was an AA admit to Dartmouth. And boy did Dartmouth get it right with her. And without Dartmouth being that visionary, it would have been more likely for her to have been not noticed from such a large urban high school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was unaware that you wanted an explanation for their choice. If you want one, why don't you venture into the "pit" that is Turner County and ask some residents there?
[/quote]
In</a> this post I said â<sigh>There is a reason for why it was their âchoiceâ. I, for example, âchooseâ not to go too far beneath the Mason Dixon line, and I "choose" this for a reason. Other blacks may choose to go quite far down in that pit, but up until a few days ago they did not âchooseâ to go to a single school prom at a certain school. And the whites somehow just happened to make the same âchoiceâ. There is a reason for why they just so happened to have made that one choice over and over and over again for their entire history. That reason is because it has been the âchoiceâ since slavery. The racism that supported slavery and that continued to live beyond the legal end of slavery to eventually support Jim Crow, still exists and is causing people to make racist âchoicesâ today.â</sigh></p>
<p>In</a> response, you replied: âThere is indeed a reason for why it was their choice, no quotation marks needed. The prom is run entirely by the students. It is only appropriate for them to make their own decision.â</p>
<p>I</a> then pointed out that your explanation is no explanation at all. âAll you are saying here is that âthe reason those students chose to have segregated proms is because it was their choice.â. This explains nothing, certainly not why it has been their choice for their entire time down there in that pit.â</p>
<p>And this is quite true. The reason all these kids happened to âchooseâ racism, and why many still happen to choose it, insisting on having whites-only proms even now, stretch clean back to slavery, and it is all based squarely on race. Race in America is just that significant, and as the blacks in the pit have for years been segregated from proms based on race, they have also been segregated from very much else that many people take for granted. The attitudes governing the âchoicesâ of the students didnât just pop out of thin air. It is the attitude that has governed the choices of their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, all the way back to the very first arrival of blacks in America. Even today, race is negatively affecting blacks, and as such no reasonable person will take your view that it is âirrelevantâ.</p>
<p>I do not need to visit the pit to know this. I grew up there, kid. I was there when I was your age, and despite what you report I see it is still quite evidently a pit, especially since you are so far removed from what I know blacks there are experiencing, you actually claim the sort of ill-treatment allegedly taking place at Yale, does not exist in the Deep South. I mean, no one in the country, shoot, not even people on the opposite side of the world are gonna believe you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This majority support [of blacks for AA] was signifcantly less than 94%; it was 53%.
[/quote]
Well, still, if that is your âsmall, but vocal minorityâ, you need an education about much more than the reality faced by blacks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Based on my experience in my American Government class, several of my Black classmates voiced support for affirmative action BUT also felt that jobs should be given purely on the basis of merit. She clearly stated that she did not support any form of quota, explicit or implicit.
[/quote]
I believe the same thing. Indeed I am against quotas even for education. I certainly would prefer to have enough blacks on any campus so that most blacks will feel comfortable, but even here I am flexible. I suspect there are a number of qualified blacks in America that building these communities is possible. But if not, that is the way it is.</p>
<p>The main thing I am concerned about is incorporating the effects of race in any assessment of the efforts of a student, especially poor black students who, despite their stations in life succeed academically. I think race should not be a factor when it comes to jobs because I trust the market. If a black guy has fulfilled his duty to himself in college, he will have wares to sell on the market. And if the market cannot appreciate his goods, he will be able to start something himself. But he should at least have a fighting chance to appreciate education. I think we need to focus on this aspect beginning with the family all the way up to and through college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The conclusion? When you actually define what affirmative action is, Drosselmeier, you'll find that the support you think you have isn't as great as it actually is.
[/quote]
It is still much larger than some fictitious âsmall, vocal minorityâ. Indeed, it is vast.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I take it affirmative action is "chump-change?" I'll agree with you that Black grievances have never truly been addressed. Affirmative action was, after all, an attempt by white redemptive liberals to atone for the sins of their grandfathers. It helped them a whole lot more than it helped Blacks. Why maintain a reactionary half-hearted policy?
[/quote]
Yes. It is chump-change, when compared to the problem it was designed to address. But as part of a well-designed comprehensive system, it could possibly be very powerful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You suspect that racial preferences help increase education among Blacks and thus change a culture. Your suspicions are not confirmed by a UCLA law professor who has extensively researched a subfield of this topic. Of course, he's a "shill" for our President, so I don't expect you to trust his findings.
[/quote]
One little law professor proves nothing, especially when he works for Bush and creates âstudiesâ every bit as flawed as his boss.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, you are not a victim. You're about as much of a victim as Ms. Crystal Gail Magnum is. Unless you are over 100 years old, you were born free, a citizen of the United States of America.
[/quote]
When so many millions of black people desire to know their ancestry and simply canât because of something their own country did to them, a gross injustice has taken place and it gets perpetuated with every generation. it ceases only when one of the generations feels attached enough to the country to think itself of its soil. That has not yet happened to black people. And it canât happen as long as the country keeps telling lies about what it has done.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't mind it if you poke insults at me, after all, I do the same to you. But, calling Turner County and my place of residence a "pit" is unnecessary. It's also unnecessary to ask my friends to "lay off the sauce."
[/quote]
I am not insulting you, friend. I just wonât effortlessly suffer some know-it-all, Johnny-come-lately kid in the pit preaching to me about how irrelevant race is when I have worked jobs in the pit for longer than he has even been alive. If you are gonna come in here telling me how race is irrelevant, you are gonna hafta do more than just say it over and over again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is, quite simply, a generational difference between you and I. I acknowledge that our nation has committed deep injustices against Black Americans. Preferential treatment is the wrong way to right that wrong. I don't believe that people are helped when they are insulated from competition.
[/quote]
There are millions of kids like</a> this one whose present lives are integrally linked to what our country has done. Unlike other kids in dire circumstances, these kids are out there suffering because of how America structured itself against their ancestors, their grandparents, which negatively influenced their parents, which negatively influenced them-- and by law. Yet, inexplicably, some of them refuse to give up. In fact, they are still hanging in, following the country that is to a great extent responsible for their circumstances. All of life is âThe competitionâ for them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd support affirmative action if it could be honestly shown that it actually helps society, and particularly Blacks. The research just doesn't support that, unfortunately. As great as our nation is, it isn't great enough to be the first successful test case of affirmative action. Social engineering in this manner failed in Nigeria, India, Malaysia, and it has failed here, as well.
[/quote]
Well, it depends upon what research you decide to nurse. Affirmative Action has worked for whites for very many centuries here. I mean, people ought to just read the history, see how it has wormed itself up to us to this day. People, white people right now, are enjoying benefits that were set-aside for them by law, even at the expense of blacks. Even the fairly recent New</a> Deal was just this gigantic rotten-deal Affirmative Action handout to whites, giving them such a leg up even to this day. And that is just one of thousands of Affirmative Action programs that nobody complains about, that cost unfathomable numbers of dollars. Affirmative Action exists even today for whites. It has also worked for other groups that have come here and progressed even as blacks were being denied their most basic rights.</p>
<p>One big difference between these Affirmative Actions and recent Affirmative Action for blacks is that the earlier Affirmative Action was practiced with impunity, and for a very, very long time, since the 1600s. It was practiced against blacks virulently, also for a very, very long time. The new Affirmative Action hasnât even existed for my whole lifetime, let along for multiple centuries. And it never has enjoyed anywhere near the support the white Affirmative Action has enjoyed. It is no failure. It hasnât even had time to begin. The real failure is that other Affirmative Action, the one that got us in the fix weâre in. It is still in effect today, and it is a moral failure.</p>