I wish I weren't Asian

[fabrizio]

<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>
[quote]

Even today, race is negatively affecting blacks, and as such no reasonable person will take your view that it is "irrelevant".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Careful. I said it was irrelevant for participation in the programs of a university. As a result, it should not be considered in admissions. If you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then please don't twist mine.</p>

<p>Also, I admitted that there is still racial prejudice in the Deep South. Please review my post 611, where I stated my acknowledgment that "several White students harbor subtle racist attitudes, but they have the courtesy to treat their Black friends with respect in public." Again, if you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then please don't twist mine.</p>

<p>I think this is a pretty important point. The Deep South is not perfect when it comes to race relations. I never said it was. Yet, given the racial breakdown of the student body at my joint-enrolled university, I can't for a second imagine that some White students would start running in the opposite direction when they saw a Black classmate in the laundry area of their dorm. It's unfathomable to me. I can easily picture some White students making racial jokes in private (I've heard some myself), but again, I cannot see them making those kinds of jokes in the presence of Black students. The "pit" has changed since 1954; Black students are not verbally harassed for entering public schools.</p>

<p>The 53% figure is how many Blacks support affirmative action once it has been defined. It is not indicative of how many Blacks support affirmative action the way you do, that is, as a means to redress past discrimination. We'd have to get another poll with another set of questions to find the answer to this. There may be one, but I'm unaware of its existence.</p>

<p>You say the following:</p>

<p>If a black guy has fulfilled his duty to himself in college, he will have wares to sell on the market. And if the market cannot appreciate his goods, he will be able to start something himself. But he should at least have a fighting chance to appreciate education. I think we need to focus on this aspect beginning with the family all the way up to and through college.</p>

<p>And I agree with you completely. I may, however, disagree on exactly what constitutes a "fighting chance." I don't believe that preferential treatment should be included here.</p>

<p>Dr. Sander does not work for Bush. The last time I checked, he isn't an adviser of any sort to our President. Unlike President Bush, Dr. Sander defends his work by directly addressing his criticisms.</p>

<p>Whatever. There's only so much I can do now regarding affirmative action, anyway. I think several other states will have propositions similar to Proposition 209 and Proposition 2 on the ballot in 2008. I hope these states will pass these propositions and end a reactionary policy.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>Fabrizio, I try so hard to avoid judging you, but you keep saying such subtly ignorant things that i have to acknowledge: you are incredibly prejudiced and borderline racist, or at the very least incredibly ignorant. </p>

<p>-you remark that because somebody wasn't born into slavery that they aren't experiencing the detrimental effects.</p>

<p>-you said that african americans who voice support for AA and help to set right the effects of an incredible wrong are "wanting something for nothing".</p>

<p>-You said that those who believe AA is beneficial are "disassociated from the american identities", which basically means that you're saying that if you aren't content with the way things are now, you don't have pride in America.</p>

<p>-You constantly talk about how all of your "black friends are proud to be an American." and that others are "part of a small vocal community.", which is like saying: "I like the ones who are quiet and happy with what they got....but some of them like to stir up trouble and talk about wantin preferential treatment."</p>

<p>-You're in such denial that you believe that the dance that remained segregated up till now was by choice. It may have been by choice, but not by the "hey, uh, let's just have two different proms choice." more like the "If you colored folk come to our prom we're not going to include you and we're going to make you feel uncomfortable" kind of choice. </p>

<p>-you claim that black/white relationships in your area are "harmonious". translated: they stay out of our way and don't bother anyone. </p>

<p>-You say that people who acknowledge that discrimination against african americans exist today and that AA and other government programs are needed are just "subscribing to victimhood". </p>

<p>-You act like political figures like Obama just flip a coin and choose to be black or white. They are black because it is part of their identity, on a personal level and in the way that society views them.</p>

<p>-You live in the south and act like everything is perfectly fine and that racism isn't anymore of a problem down there than anywhere else. Anybody on the outside knows that that is false and that racism is STILL a major problem, especially in the south. People that hold those very subtle racist views such as yourself are the worst as they are in complete denial. </p>

<p>-If you wan't an analogy more easy for you to handle. Suppose you're at the olympics and everybody's running a 400. First you take a man, cut off his leg, then make him start 100 meters further back then everyone else. Then saying "ok, you can have equal rights now" and allowing him to start at the same place as everybody else. He's still got one leg cut off that you're not doing anything to repair. And in addition to that, the crowd is booing at him while he runs. People with you're point of view are like: "well, he isn't entitled to a new leg, nobody else is getting free legs.....". NONE of those other people had their leg cut off in the first place...</p>

<p>I don't think you even realize how subtly racism has infiltrated you're thinking. You're obviously an intelligent individual but some of the things you say......</p>

<p>-and on a more biased note.....you're a bush administration advocate. Well that screams denial loud and clear.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>"And Ivy League and other elite universities are known to PROACTIVELY and aggressively recruit from the black immigrant community, whereas they don't bother to recruit from disadvantaged Asian immigrant communities (such as the Hmong, Laotians, poor Chinese, etc.)."</p>

<p>That is so far off-base it's absurd. Columbia, for example, is quite interested in impoverished Southeast Asians who have immigrated here, & have in fact accepted them (with significantly lower scores than many non-immigrant, non-middle class U.S. blacks, btw) in recent years.</p>

<p>I don't know that they "recruit" Southeast Asians, nor do I know if you have any evidence that Ivies "recuit" "black immigrants." But they do <em>accept</em> both groups, and are especially eager to accept qualified southeast Asians not growing up in lily-white neighborhoods. (Otherwise referred to as a "well-known fact" by people who do their reading.)</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>
[quote]
Careful. I said it was irrelevant for participation in the programs of a university. As a result, it should not be considered in admissions. If you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then please don't twist mine.

[/quote]
I certainly did twist your words intentionally. I didn’t think you would be so dishonest as to claim that race is relevant elsewhere in American life, but suddenly disappears when it comes to college admissions. I will show you the problem with this.</p>

<p>First, here is what you are saying:</p>

<ol>
<li>Colleges have programs</li>
<li>Humans are of different races</li>
<li>All humans can participate in the programs without regard to race</li>
<li>Therefore race should not be a factor in college admissions</li>
</ol>

<p>There is a composition error here where you refer to college program features to dictate the characteristics of college admissions. You are confusing College Admissions with College Participation. Admissions is the right to participate. Participation is one’s actual contribution to a program. Though one ought not gain admission without ability, admission is not governed inexorably by ability. It may, for example, be also governed by demonstrated passion and interest, cuteness, ugliness, flashiness, vivaciousness, resilience, grooming, breeding, culture, tenacity, and a host of other factors, all of which are affected by attitudes surrounding race. A certain group of girls, for example, upon hearing themselves being called “Nappy-headed ho’s” on national television, may decide, fallaciously, to avoid all whites, though they themselves are white. They may have the ability to participate in certain schools, and yet still fail to gain admission due to a problem with one of the components of admission, say, resilience. Another group, equally capable and undergoing the same experience, may decide to press onward as if nothing had happened, even calling the schools to let them know they are on the market. This would increase the demonstrated interest and tenacity components. The fact the girls are black might especially increase the resilience component since race in America is so important an influence upon attitudes. Where all is equal, except for race, the black girls may get the nod due to their demonstrated resilience in the face of the pressure that came to them because of race.</p>

<p>Here is what you must conclude from your beliefs:</p>

<ol>
<li>Colleges have programs</li>
<li>Humans are in different races</li>
<li>All humans can participate in the programs without regard to race</li>
<li>Therefore, after college admission, race should not be a factor in program participation</li>
</ol>

<p>
[quote]
Also, I admitted that there is still racial prejudice in the Deep South. Please review my post 611, where I stated my acknowledgment that "several White students harbor subtle racist attitudes, but they have the courtesy to treat their Black friends with respect in public." Again, if you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then please don't twist mine.

[/quote]
Once again, I certainly did not intend to twist words, unlike you. When you tell me, flatly, that the racist behavior that allegedly takes place at Yale does not take place in the Deep South, I assume that is what you mean. It was an error for which I apologize. I see now that you really are claiming that while racism exists in the Deep South, it is subtle, unlike the blatant racism allegedly at Yale. The subtle racism in the Deep South takes place when subtle racists chain black guys to pickup trucks and then drag them down the street until their bodies fall to pieces. That does not happen at Yale.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think this is a pretty important point. The Deep South is not perfect when it comes to race relations. I never said it was. Yet, given the racial breakdown of the student body at my joint-enrolled university, I can't for a second imagine that some White students would start running in the opposite direction when they saw a Black classmate in the laundry area of their dorm. It's unfathomable to me.

[/quote]
Your joint-enrolled university is not the South. One might expect at least a glimmer of enlightenment at a university.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I can easily picture some White students making racial jokes in private (I've heard some myself), but again, I cannot see them making those kinds of jokes in the presence of Black students. The "pit" has changed since 1954; Black students are not verbally harassed for entering public schools.

[/quote]
The whole country has changed. But when a state has schools where in the year 2007 the prom is segregated, and where despite this its citizens are so insensitive to racism as to claim racism is only “subtle” in the Deep South, you know blinking well that state is still a pit. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The 53% figure is how many Blacks support affirmative action once it has been defined. It is not indicative of how many Blacks support affirmative action the way you do, that is, as a means to redress past discrimination. We'd have to get another poll with another set of questions to find the answer to this. There may be one, but I'm unaware of its existence.

[/quote]
Hehe. I don’t need a poll. It is clear to me that however you tweak and slice it, your little “small and vocal minority” is just a figment of your Jawgia imagination.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dr. Sander does not work for Bush. The last time I checked, he isn't an adviser of any sort to our President. Unlike President Bush, Dr. Sander defends his work by directly addressing his criticisms.

[/quote]
If he barked on all fours in response to his critics he would be directly addressing them. It is the content of those responses that is woefully deficient.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Whatever. There's only so much I can do now regarding affirmative action, anyway. I think several other states will have propositions similar to Proposition 209 and Proposition 2 on the ballot in 2008. I hope these states will pass these propositions and end a reactionary policy.

[/quote]
A few days ago my son returned home from visiting a college. While on the trip he decided to take a walk through the local city where he encountered a homeless man. The man displayed a sign that said he needed money to “buy weed”. He constantly yelled “I want some weed! I want some weed! I want some weed!” My boy reports that the man had a nice stash of cash, and smiled as he announced that he wanted to buy weed. A bit farther down the walk was an old homeless woman, also begging for money. She was just interested in food. She did not have as much money as the man. That is why AA will end. In truth, we have already lost AA and a whole lot more.</p>

[Momwaitingfornew]

<p>First, I can't believe that this thread is still barreling forward. </p>

<p>Next, for epiphany, Drosselmeier, Tyler09: wow. You may never change Fabrizio's mind, but your writing here has been articulate and persuasive. I wouldn't be surprised if you have educated many lurkers - and right there, that's worth the longevity of the thread.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Tyler09,</p>

<p>
[quote]

you are incredibly prejudiced and borderline racist, or at the very least incredibly ignorant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's a pretty strong accusation. Do you have anything at all to back it up?</p>

<p>First, I advise you to understand what a "straw man" is. Don't worry, you'll learn it in high school.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I did not say that. I said Drosselmeier is every bit of a victim as Ms. Crystal G. Mangum is.</p></li>
<li><p>Drosselmeier is asking for special treatment just because he is Black. Something for nothing.</p></li>
<li><p>No. I said Drosselmeier makes an accusation - most Blacks don't feel American - that is unfounded.</p></li>
<li><p>No, I like people who believe that they can get what they want by hard work. I do not like people who believe that they can get what they want by demanding preferential treatment.</p></li>
<li><p>Why don't you go ask a resident of that area? Matter of fact, make it two - one White and one Black, so you can have a "diverse" set of opinions.</p></li>
<li><p>Poor translation. Please retake ninth grade English and reread my post where I stated that White students frequently interact with Black students in the halls, in classes, on the field, and so forth.</p></li>
<li><p>Where did I say that?</p></li>
<li><p>Last time I checked, Senator Obama's mother is White.</p></li>
<li><p>Poor reading comprehension. My correction, please retake eighth grade English. You should then recognize that I said the Deep South is far from perfect when it comes to race relations.</p></li>
<li><p>Poor analogy. Affirmative action does not give him a prosthetic leg. It makes persons like you think he's wearing one when he really isn't. To simplify, he isn't helped at all.</p></li>
<li><p>Well, thank you. Nevertheless, I'd like you to prove your accusation. If you think I'm racist, hey, who am I to stop you from thinking that? All I ask for is a modicum of proof.</p></li>
<li><p>You conclude I'm an advocate for the Bush Administration based on my belief that affirmative action should be abolished? I definitely like his stance on affirmative action, but that's about it. I'm not a big fan of his foreign policy, his government expansionism, and his domestic rights policy.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>He's violated one of the core principles of conservatism and classical liberalism - a government as small as possible.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>You can convince me, easily, that race is a factor today in our nation. No problem there.</p>

<p>You can convince me, easily, that some Blacks still feel affected by the legacy of slavery and segregation. After all, I am writing to one at this moment.</p>

<p>You can convince me, easily, that some citizens of our country don't have the same chances in public education as others do.</p>

<p>You can't convince me, however, that you deserve preferential treatment because of your race. That's really the crux of our disagreement. It's a values judgment. I believe you deserve to be treated equally, but you take that a step further in your favor and claim that only preferential treatment is acceptable.</p>

<p>At least you agree with me that the "chump change" we have now is a farce.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The subtle racism in the Deep South takes place when subtle racists chain black guys to pickup trucks and then drag them down the street until their bodies fall to pieces. That does not happen at Yale.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ooh, appeal to emotion. Nicely done. Yeah, I guess a Black graduate student getting pulled over for walking with a White graduate student and being driven back to where he started walking in Boston, MA doesn't compare to death by dragging.</p>

<p>Like I said, I don't mind it if you poke fun at me for believing that Blacks deserve equal treatment, but please, leave my state out of this and my friends.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>You rock. I had such a bad day yesterday, having absolutely nothing to do with CC, lol. I needed that.</p>

<p>Do you think that just maybe the involuntary removal to the Cafe was an attempt by a mod to Kill The Thread That Will Never Die?</p>

<p>("It's baaaaccckkkk.")</p>

[kenshi]

<p>Ok I haven't read the entire thread but all I know is the title says "I wish I weren't Asian" and all I see skimming through pages is black black black and AA AA African American blah blah.</p>

<p>Anyways to the OP I will trade my blackness for your asianness.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>
[quote]
You can convince me, easily, that race is a factor today in our nation. No problem there.

[/quote]
The problem with this statement is in that euphemism “a factor”. It attempts to hide the real facts concerning the</a> reality black people face every day. When we get rid of the Pit’s English here and deal honestly, we find that “a factor” means that current attitudes toward race suppress blacks far more than they do whites. Indeed, those attitudes suppress blacks more than any other race in the country – and this has always been so since blacks have existed in this place. That is the “factor” that America has always dismissed. The very presence of this “factor” means blacks are slogging through life here in America, especially down there in The Southern Pit, with more weight upon them than everyone else. Because of this, no preferential treatment occurs when including the effects of race in an assessment of a student's accomplishments.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can convince me, easily, that some Blacks still feel affected by the legacy of slavery and segregation. After all, I am writing to one at this moment.

[/quote]
Here again is more PitSpeak. The issue is not that blacks “feel” affected by the legacy of slavery. It is that they indeed are being affected by the legacy of slavery through “The Factor” mentioned above. We ought to just try some unvarnished honesty here-- for once.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can convince me, easily, that some citizens of our country don't have the same chances in public education as others do.

[/quote]
PitSpeak. It is not just that “some citizens” don’t have equal “public” educational access. We ought to just be flat out honest. It is that black people as a group disproportionately have less access than others to ANY education, public or private, due to “The Factor”.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You can't convince me, however, that you deserve preferential treatment because of your race.

[/quote]
Young friend, convincing you of anything is the farthest thing from my mind here – and that ought to be quite obvious to you by now. I have many other more interesting futile pursuits from which I might choose than to waste time on this one. My interests here are simply to explore my beliefs and express them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That's really the crux of our disagreement. It's a values judgment. I believe you deserve to be treated equally, but you take that a step further in your favor and claim that only preferential treatment is acceptable.

[/quote]
There is no possibility of “equal treatment” unless the ancestors of every other group in America are also enslaved, segregated, and discriminated against by American law, and the resulting resources given to my ancestors, by American law, for nearly four-hundred years, to eventually be passed on to people who look like me. This is the one hundred ton Blue Whale in the fish bowl that you and the rest of America deliberately overlook.</p>

<p>
[quote]
At least you agree with me that the "chump change" we have now is a farce.

[/quote]
Only as it has been practiced so far. It was developed to deal with the issue, but it ended up helping more whites, especially white women, and others, than it has helped blacks. Yet blacks are always taking the hit for it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ooh, appeal to emotion. Nicely done.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, though it seems I have appealed to something that doesn’t exist.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yeah, I guess a Black graduate student getting pulled over for walking with a White graduate student and being driven back to where he started walking in Boston, MA doesn't compare to death by dragging.

[/quote]
I don’t think we really need to guess about this, friend. I mean, if you had the choice between these two poisons here, really now, which would you choose?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Like I said, I don't mind it if you poke fun at me for believing that Blacks deserve equal treatment, but please, leave my state out of this and my friends.

[/quote]
I do not know you or your friends and have therefore never commented on any of you. I do know your state. Its historic lack of honor, its indecency, its lies, and backwardness, have left it a smoldering pit of invincible ignorance and misery for millions of people. And it has been this way for centuries.</p>

[k_amp_s]

<p>epiphany -
[quote]
"And Ivy League and other elite universities are known to PROACTIVELY and aggressively recruit from the black immigrant community, whereas they don't bother to recruit from disadvantaged Asian immigrant communities (such as the Hmong, Laotians, poor Chinese, etc.)."</p>

<p>That is so far off-base it's absurd. Columbia, for example, is quite interested in impoverished Southeast Asians who have immigrated here, & have in fact accepted them (with significantly lower scores than many non-immigrant, non-middle class U.S. blacks, btw) in recent years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hmmm - let's see.</p>

<p>Are SE Asians disproportionately represented within the Asian student body at Ivy League universities (note - I didn't say that they didn't ever admit SE Asian students w/ lower scores) as black applicants from immigrant communities from Africa and the Caribbean are w/in the overall black student body?</p>

<p>Answer - NO.</p>

<p>Btw, there have been a no. of studies done on this (such as one done with regard to Brown), which, I would think, have a little more credibility than your anedoctal quips (which, it seems, is all you ever have).</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't know that they "recruit" Southeast Asians, nor do I know if you have any evidence that Ivies "recuit" "black immigrants." But they do <em>accept</em> both groups, and are especially eager to accept qualified southeast Asians not growing up in lily-white neighborhoods. (Otherwise referred to as a "well-known fact" by people who do their reading.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right - couldn't have said it better myself - YOU DON'T KNOW.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>
[quote]

I do not know you or your friends and have therefore never commented on any of you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You asked my friends to "lay off the sauce" since they don't share your victimhood mentality.</p>

<p>But, that's a minor point.</p>

<p>You accuse me of euphemisms, just like I accuse you and your fellow racial preference sympathizers of doing the same.</p>

<p>If it makes you feel better, I'll change "a factor" to "a big factor." Once again, no problems there.</p>

<p>And, if it makes you feel better, I'll change "feel" to "still being affected," although I'll finish that phrase with mentally, because I think that describes your affliction.</p>

<p>But, I'm not changing "some people." Unlike you, I actually like to be inclusive in who I want to help.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>
[quote]
You asked my friends to "lay off the sauce" since they don't share your victimhood mentality.

[/quote]
Well, you will just have to prove this claim (which, as usual, you cannot). As far as I know, I have never met your friends, have never spoken to them. So I could not have asked them to lay off the sauce. I did say that if they thought such and such a thing, I’d have nothing to say to them except perhaps to consider laying off of it. But I will need to deal with them to actually come to that conclusion about them. I certainly do not think it prudent to come to that conclusion about them on the basis of your judgment.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You accuse me of euphemisms, just like I accuse you and your fellow racial preference sympathizers of doing the same. If it makes you feel better, I'll change "a factor" to "a big factor." Once again, no problems there.

[/quote]
Just get rid of the Pit Speak altogether, and tell the unvarnished truth. If blacks must carry a burden, due to America’s once legal treatment of blacks (a burden that whites do not carry), then it is illogical not to assess black accomplishment in view of that additional burden. This does not mean blacks must gain an automatic acceptance or anything of the sort. It could mean that should a black person show himself as capable or even approximately as capable as whites, despite his enduring the “big factor” that whites do not endure, then he may legitimately receive the nod. He is already swamped by a competition that whites can hardly even comprehend.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And, if it makes you feel better, I'll change "feel" to "still being affected," although I'll finish that phrase with mentally, because I think that describes your affliction.

[/quote]
When study-after-study shows how racism boosts our rate of high-blood pressure, and how the healthcare system denies healthcare to blacks that it extends to whites, and how blacks receive the death penalty and other punishments far more than whites who commit the same crimes, and thousands more affects like these that are killing blacks even as you read this, son, it ought to be clear even to you that you haven’t a clue.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But, I'm not changing "some people." Unlike you, I actually like to be inclusive in who I want to help.

[/quote]
Yes. Georgia Pit inclusive.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>I present you the following from your post 609:</p>

<p>
[quote]

One can be proud and still see injustice. If your friends’ pride causes them not to be able to see the reality of so many blacks around them, so that they honestly think the playing field is as level for blacks as it is for everyone else, well, I don’t personally have anything more to say on this except that maybe they might consider laying a bit off the sauce.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You say that "It could mean that should a black person show himself as capable or even approximately as capable as whites, despite his enduring the "big factor" that whites do not endure, then he may legitimately receive the nod."</p>

<p>To me, what matters is that he shows himself as capable. Therefore, he has every right to given the nod. This is something I have consistently stated.</p>

<p>Regarding the second to last paragraph, I don't see how affirmative action resolves any of the issues you've mentioned.</p>

<p>I take your "Georgia Pit inclusive" insult with pride. "Georgia Pit inclusive" includes people of all races. Can you say the same for your inclusion?</p>

<p>I still find it funny that consistently stating "Blacks deserve equal treatment" gets me pegged as a modern racist by people who won't attempt to prove their accusation when asked.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>Fabrizio, you need to stop calling yourself an equal-rights advocate if you have already admitted that while african americans are at a big disadvantage in their current state of society due to conditions imposed on them by a government in complete contradiction to its beliefs, they don't deserve to receive the educational opportunities required to perform as a group at equal standards of any other groups.</p>

<p>-You can't justify that while in society african americans are at a disadvantage in the education system that suddenly when the majority, that doesn't face the same struggles, could potentially lose a few spots of their over-representation, now blacks they should be treated "equally". </p>

<p>Equal opportunities are only equal when no group has an advantage over another. Saying that college admissions should be solely merit base isn't promoting equal opportunities because African Americans are at a disadvantage throughout the K-12 education system for the reasons repeated numerous times throughout these posts. AA is justifiable because it IS one of the programs attempting to do something about those disadvantages by attempting to "re-equalize" things at the university level. In order for equal opportunities to exist w/o programs like AA, african americans need to have the same opportunities at the K-12 level. This is gradually being reached through AA because it is increasing the number of African Americans with affluent, educated parents (a current disadvantage amongst african americans, it is also shown that more educated parents are less likely to get divorced. And its been shown that children from two parent households perform better than those from single parent ones), the number of college educated black role models for inspiration, and the number of african americans active in high-level politics and other power positions. </p>

<p>On Diversity: maybe not for major prep-school kids, but for kids from public school, to meet an African American student that is very intellectually articulate is a totally new experience. By promoting an ethnically diverse environment, universities are helping students have those experiences.</p>

<p>-You constantly refer to drosselmeier as wanting "something for nothing", as if the disadvantage that african americans face in society is nothing. This isn't a problem that if you just "work hard" it wont matter, this is so much deeper and on a wider scale then that. Your dismissing the struggles african americans face today as "victmhood" mirror the thinking during the period of Jim Crow laws and the "separate but equal" policies. They believed that while the institutions would be segregated, they would still be the same institutions and thus everybody would have equal opportunities. When they revealed that those institutions were not in fact equal at all, the racists rationalized that the blacks were just being "victims" and that if they just worked hard they could still achieve just as much as anybody.</p>

<p>Your entire argument has been based on dismissing the struggles of African Americans as simple enough to overcome through hard work, and unworthy of government or university attention. And that is the condescending tone that alludes to your racial prejudice.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>"couldn't have said it better myself - YOU (k&s) DON'T KNOW."</p>

<p>You can stop embarrassing yourself now, k&s, by shouting fabrications. You make up complete fantasies. Show me where Ivies "recruit" (not "accept" but "recruit") black immigrants, while making no effort to recruit, encourage, promote the admission of domestic underrepresented groups, such as Southeast Asians.</p>

<p>(You can't. It doesn't happen.)
You are conducting a hate campaign & a smear campaign against the Ivies, stating as "well-known fact" on a public message board differential admissions practices which do not exist.</p>

<p>All private & public Universities have a number of slots left open for internationals every year. Those internationals consist of the following ethnic groups: Western/Northern Europeans, Blacks, Asians, etc.</p>

<p>I didn't state "anecdotal quips." I stated admissions results.</p>

<p>There's a lot of anti-AA hate speech which I find really distasteful on this board. Some of you don't really have a position, per se. You have a campaign. You're filled with an exaggerated level of anger that reveals more about yourselves than about "facts." You state your opinions as "facts" rather than the opinions that they are. </p>

<p>In a word, you're obsessed.</p>

<p>That Ivies admit URM's as generously as they can, given the respective qualifications of those, and that those URM's will include both foreign & domestic students, is not an opinion; it's a fact. </p>

<p>What do you think will happen if (and they will) Ivies continue to incorporate AA as one of <em>many</em> admissions policies -- along with athletic recruitment, legacy admission, celebrity & major donor admission, and Enrollment Management? Will the quality of education tank, in those institutions? If so, why bother with them? Surely you don't want to associate yourself with such compromised educational institutions, who would admit supposedly questionable students, of whom you do not approve. I sure wouldn't. If I objected as virulently as you do, to the admissions policies of College X, I wouldn't apply there. There have been private K-12 schools whose admissions policies I objected to, and you bet I didn't apply for my children to attend there. And there were at least 2 U's that my D took off her list, which have mandatory swimming tests, another with some forced "outdoor" (wilderness) experience. Not her cup of tea: been there, done that. Doesn't want to waste her time re-taking swimming, or roughing it. SHE DIDN'T APPLY THERE. (I can shout, too.)</p>

<p>Any time now, you can stop making me responsible for creating the admissions policies at Ivies. I'm not responsible. You have major rage against the Ivies admissions offices. So call them up already, and leave me alone.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>You also try to make up that AA does nothing to help african americans. Which obviously you don't even believe or else their wouldn't be any debate about AA because it wouldn't be doing anything or giving anybody any kind of advantages. ---directed at fabrizio</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>
[quote]
I present you the following from your post 609:

[/quote]
And, of course, if your friends meet the criterion mentioned in that post, I know of nothing more that I should say to them, except lay off the sauce. But I do not know if your friends meet that criterion. So I have not yet told them, contrary to your claims, to lay off the sauce.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You say that "It could mean that should a black person show himself as capable or even approximately as capable as whites, despite his enduring the "big factor" that whites do not endure, then he may legitimately receive the nod." To me, what matters is that he shows himself as capable. Therefore, he has every right to given the nod. This is something I have consistently stated.

[/quote]
Well, I happen to know that life is messy, and that it is very rare to find measurements of ability between two people that are so precise we can state categorically that one person is as capable as another. If by some quantitative measurement the black person comes very close to the white person, despite that he endures obstacles the white person cannot even fathom, it is reasonable to surmise that in helping to offset the obstacles in the case of the black person, we might enable him to make up the small difference in performance. Studies have shown this to happen quite frequently in the cases of blacks at elite universities, especially when they are tracked for long periods of time.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Regarding the second to last paragraph, I don't see how affirmative action resolves any of the issues you've mentioned.

[/quote]
I weary of this. You must try to track this discussion more accurately if you wish to engage in it. You were attempting to dismiss the legacy of slavery by falsely claiming its prevailing negative effects were only “mental”. I pointed out that its effects are both mental and physical. In truth, these effects are not only suppressing our academic performances, but our lives. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I take your "Georgia Pit inclusive" insult with pride. "Georgia Pit inclusive" includes people of all races. Can you say the same for your inclusion?

[/quote]
Take it as you will. As you have demonstrated here, with your pollyannaish vision of a Deep South wherein racism is only “subtle”, your inclusion includes people of all races only inasmuch as certain races, especially the black race, keep their place. Should a black person begin to underscore the legitimate grievances of blacks all over America, certainly in the South, your inclusion denounces them as people who suffer from “victimhood”. It is nothing in which to be proud. In fact it is shameful that so many millions of people must exist in their own country for so many years, pointing out what none of their countrymen are morally fit to hear.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I still find it funny that consistently stating "Blacks deserve equal treatment" gets me pegged as a modern racist by people who won't attempt to prove their accusation when asked.

[/quote]
It is self-evident that if you enslave my parents and I suffer the effects of that enslavement through the anguish of my parents, equal treatment does not take place simply because you should decide not to enslave me. If you had integrity, you would see, immediately, that equal treatment would require that I enslave your parents, to do unto you and yours exactly what you have done unto me and mine. That and only that is equal treatment. What you propose is not equal treatment at all. You are simply overlooking the real harm, the thing that most destroys us, and then arrogantly claiming we are silly for being destroyed.</p>

<p>LOL. Kid, you don’t have black friends down there in the pit. It is impossible.</p>

[epiphany]

<p>fabrizio,
If Drosselmeier had "a victimhood mentality," his children wouldn't be who they are, and where they are. What he has fathered is diametrically opposed to what you seem to assume, by virtue of his recounting of a history of oppression & the educational & economic results of that oppression.</p>

<p>By definition, victims don't fight, don't struggle, and sometimes don't even work against victimhood. He and his wife also tutor in schools so that students will <em>not</em> view themselves as victims, but as survivors & victors.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>I admit that some students in the United States, particularly ones from poorer families, have disadvantages when it comes to education. This group of "some students" includes individuals from all races.</p>

<p>Where have I said that Blacks do not deserve to receive the educational opportunities required to perform as a group at equal standards of other groups? Kindly refrain from employing straw men; they don't help your argument. Unless, of course, affirmative action is a requirement to perform at a high level. As I've told you before, repeatedly, UCSD shows that affirmative action is actually an impediment to Black success.</p>

<p>The majority already "lost a few spots" when affirmative action ended in California. Have I not already informed you of the rising Black enrollments in the UC system following the passage of Proposition 209?</p>

<p>
[quote]

Equal opportunities are only equal when no group has an advantage over another.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This will happen when the United States becomes socialist, which is to say that it will never happen, certainly not in the near future as the redemptive liberal baby boomers retire.</p>

<p>My brain had a kernel panic for one second when I read the following: ...but for kids from public school, to meet an African American student that is very intellectually articulate is a totally new experience. Wow, and I'm the one being accused of racism here? Damn, I need to start taking lessons from Karl Rove and Chen Water Flat on how to smear my opponents. Do you have their numbers on speed dial?</p>

<p>I refer to Drosselmeier as wanting something for nothing because he does not advocate equal treatment for Blacks; he wants preferential treatment. If he claims that his group is not being treated equally and says that he has a right to equal treatment, then I would walk with him wholeheartedly. But, that is not what he is saying. He is saying that because this nation committed gross injustices to his ancestors decades and centuries ago, he is entitled to a recompense in the form of special treatment. I cannot support such a belief.</p>

<p>Your final sentence, *Your entire argument has been based on dismissing the struggles of African Americans as simple enough to overcome through hard work, and unworthy of government or university attention, * is incorrect. The struggles are worthy of government attention. Our government has a responsibility to ensure that its citizens are not discriminated against and that they are treated equally. If Drosselmeier wants our government to make sure that it fulfills this responsibility, again, I will walk with him. Yet, he is not interested in this. He is interested in special treatment for his group.</p>

<p>I thank you for taking the time to explain why you think I'm racist, but I must say that I am not satisfied with your presentation.</p>