<p>
[quote]
...victims don't fight, don't struggle, and sometimes don't even work against victimhood.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>Ms. Crystal Gail Mangum fought, wrongly, against three Duke students.</p>
<p>She struggled, wrongly, against three Duke students.</p>
<p>She doesn't seem to be interested in apologizing to the families for the trouble she caused.</p>
<p>Post 641 is an utter non sequitor. The Duke LaCrosse case in itself has nothing to do with AA. You described a very educated poster here, one who is active in his own minority community, as having a victim mentality. Now you're jumping to the Duke LaCrosse case? (Or are all blacks "just victims" to you? You think they all, or mostly, play victim games, including those who advocate AA -- which would include admissions officers, btw? They have "a victim mentality," too?)</p>
<p>(When you can't win the argument, change the topic or distract.)</p>
<p>BEING PART ASIAN, I SERIOUSLY HATE THESE STEREOTYPES.....THEY THINK ALL ASIANS STUDY 24/7, ARE INTROVERTED, AND ALL THAT CRAP.</p>
<p>I hate how people look at me as a hard worker. Like ***?? I took the SATs only ONCE, and that was in January of my senior year - got a 2250 the first time. Does that make me a hard worker? I was never in the Math/Science league in high school, I was very active in Student Government, was President of Model UN, captain of basketball team, and all that crap. No, my high school was over 80% white, and only about 5% asian. </p>
<p>I hate how people generalize that every individual of a certain race must ALWAYS act a certain way. ***???</p>
<p>Well, gee, I realize this is a long thread, but where has it been said in the last few pages that 'Asians must always act a certain way'?</p>
<p>However, I do see a lot of stereotypes & misunderstandings being directed toward African-Americans.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>I brought up Ms. Mangum as a counterpoint to your claim that victims "don't fight, don't struggle, and sometimes don't even work against victimhood." She clearly views herself as a victim, and she most definitely fought and struggled against three Duke students in the court room.</p>
<p>Yes, I do describe Drosselmeier as having a victim mentality. He is clearly not a victim, yet he himself has claimed to be one for purposes of demanding preferential treatment. Don't forget that.</p>
<p>To answer your questions, which do not follow from any of your arguments, by the way:</p>
<ol>
<li>No. Of course not.</li>
<li>All? No. Mostly? No. Small subset? Yes. Some admissions officers? The keyword is some, so yes.</li>
</ol>
<p>My experience discussing affirmative action on this forum has really been enlightening.</p>
<p>When I write Blacks deserve equal treatment, I get pegged as a "racist."</p>
<p>When I write No race is superior to any other, I get labeled as a "supremacist" who thinks that "under-represented" minorities are inferior.</p>
<p>When I write that Blacks, like their fellow Americans, should be held responsible for their lives and actions, I'm "blaming the victim."</p>
<p>When I write All individuals are unique, I'm criticized for not being appreciative of "diversity."</p>
<p>When I write that admissions should be based solely on merit, I'm discriminating against so-called "under-represented" students.</p>
<p>When I write that all students should be treated equally, socialist wannabe parents claim that I think I'm entitled to everything.</p>
<p>Comical, I say.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I brought up Ms. Mangum as a counterpoint to your claim that victims "don't fight, don't struggle, and sometimes don't even work against victimhood." She clearly views herself as a victim, and she most definitely fought and struggled against three Duke students in the court room.
[/quote]
Oh please. This is just completely stupid. It completely misses epiphâs point. She was making the point that victims give up and turn to dishonor and despair because they sense little hope in their ability to struggle against the situation in which they find themselves. Crack dealers âfightâ by your standards, as do rapists, cheats, murderers, thieves (sheesh, what utter lunacy. I ought not have to spell this out). I have not followed the Duke case, but if this woman truly did act dishonorably, she wasnât fighting in the sense that epiph meant. She was just cheating, thieving, and basically doing to her enemies what America has been doing to blacks for almost the entire time blacks have lived here. I do not know what was in this womanâs mind. But the very fact she was a stripper, selling her body for cash, suggests to me she had given up the good fight long before she encountered the Duke kids. I certainly do nothing like this. And I do not encourage anyone with whom I work to think in this way. But if you wish to associate me with the stripper, then go ahead. You are just increasing your own dishonor, and no thinking person will miss this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, I do describe Drosselmeier as having a victim mentality. He is clearly not a victim, yet he himself has claimed to be one for purposes of demanding preferential treatment. Don't forget that.
[/quote]
It only looks like I demand preferential treatment to those who insist on ignoring the law of reciprocation. If you kill my parents, you cannot by any logic at all claim to be treating me equally simply because you decide not to kill me. To receive equal treatment, logic demands that I kill YOUR parents. Only then can equality be achieved. This is common sense. But you insist on overlooking it. All of America intentionally overlooks it. And that is why the evil persists. There is only one way I have been able to see that can take care of this thing, and that is to create a people who will naturally forgive the wrong done against them. You are demanding they overlook the very thing that totally guts them. It is not your right to force this demand. It is not Americaâs right to force it as it has tried for all these years.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My experience discussing affirmative action on this forum has really been enlightening. When I write Blacks deserve equal treatment, I get pegged as a "racist." When I write No race is superior to any other, I get labeled as a "supremacist" who thinks that "under-represented" minorities are inferior. When I write that Blacks, like their fellow Americans, should be held responsible for their lives and actions, I'm "blaming the victim." When I write All individuals are unique, I'm criticized for not being appreciative of "diversity." When I write that admissions should be based solely on merit, I'm discriminating against so-called "under-represented" students. When I write that all students should be treated equally, socialist wannabe parents claim that I think I'm entitled to everything. Comical, I say.
[/quote]
You ought to just be honest. Youâve learned nothing more about yourself from your experiences here than when you first began. You are actually playing the victim, whining about how âpeople are calling me names, just because I am saying kind things to themâ, when in fact you are acting dishonorably.</p>
<p>
[quote]
BEING PART ASIAN, I SERIOUSLY HATE THESE STEREOTYPES.....THEY THINK ALL ASIANS STUDY 24/7, ARE INTROVERTED, AND ALL THAT CRAP. I hate how people look at me as a hard worker.
[/quote]
LOL. Listen son. You need to change this way of thinking, in my opinion. I know what you are trying to say, but you canât let small-minded people cause you to hate, in any way, what is good and true. If people are looking at Asians and ascribing to them an unearned positive character, well, try to understand they mean well. They arenât trying to hurt you by not seeing you. They are giving you the benefit of the doubt, upfront. It is up to you how to handle it after that. I am encouraging you to handle it well because it is tough out here, especially when you rarely, if ever, get this benefit.</p>
<p>My son is probably your age. He is just this dear boy. You know, I donât have a lot of money or anything. But my boy thinks I am just the coolest guyâcooler than Bill Gates, cooler than Warren Buffet, cooler than Jordan, or whoever. So, I figure I must be pretty cool. But when I leave the comfort of my home, all of that dies, and I become evil, lazy, a sufferer of victimhood, a wanter of something for nothing, dumb, a thief, a cheat, a nigger. For me, it is instantaneous, and it follows me everywhere I go. I get no rest from it. To deal with others, I must first cut through all of this mess. Only then do I get enough breathing room to work. Because we blacks havenât yet been able to do to others exactly what they have done to us, we are still feeling the effects of a gross moral imbalance. Some of us have given up and decided to live poorly. Guys like me have to assume the responsibility for their actions in addition to all the trash that has come to us through slavery.</p>
<p>My son is about 6â4â, tough as nails, has just run his first marathon. He writes with as much passion as I do, but with better grammar and skill. He is a competitive rescuer, has worked hard on his job for several years and has the respect of his boss and all his co-workers. He has worked with me in this community since he was five. The boy has never stolen anything, simply will not cheat. I know this, because I have given him ample opportunity to cheat and he just will not take them. He is a National Merit Finalist, Presidential Scholar Candidate, and a TASPer. He does his schoolwork without flaw, now studying multivariable Calculus and number theory far outside of any plan we ever had for him. His stats are SAT I: 2380, SATIIs (both maths, lit, others) 800,800,780,770,720. He wrote two US history books with me way back when he was in ninth grade as part of our history program. When the kid went in to take one of his SATIIâs, I think it was in Literature, he just decided to stick around and take the US History SATII. Apparently, they let you take a test even on the fly. He pulled down the 720. He is brilliant, not just smart â the kid is gifted in mathematics, all the basic sciences, in writing, reads latin, has read hundreds and hundreds of works spanning from the ancient sacred texts, through the Greek and Roman classics, to modern times. He can conduct several Beethoven and Mozart symphonies (I taught him this), and particularly has a love for Mahler, Brahms, Bach, and several crazy rock groups. Basically, he has everything people assume you have, yet when he leaves our home, he becomes the same lazy nigger that I become.</p>
<p>So I would not get too bent out of shape on this, were I you.</p>
<p>fab,
Drosselmeier sure hasn't "demanded preferential treatment" for his children. They've earned everything they've received so far, to my knowledge. His daughter is perfectly qualified to be where she is. Last year he posted some of her stats, etc. I believe she outscored my NON-urm daughter, who received similar acceptances. He is the archetypal example of parents supporting & supplementing the education of their children. </p>
<p>The Duke case is still irrelevant. The victim discussion is in the context of AA, not in the context of criminal accusations. Let's stay on topic. But even if you wanted to bring it in, to exploit victimhood (which she did) is not fighting <em>against</em> victimhood, which is what I was arguing that AA advocates like Drosselmeier and myself do. AA is not about celebrating victimhood. It's about recognizing potential. And people who demonstrate potential are by definition not content to let others define them as victims.</p>
<p>"But the very fact she was a stripper, selling her body for cash, suggests to me she had given up the good fight long before she encountered the Duke kids."</p>
<p>Yes. Said better than I said it. (Someone playing out her life as a victim; she surrendered long ago.)</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeier sure hasn't "demanded preferential treatment" for his children. They've earned everything they've received so far, to my knowledge. His daughter is perfectly qualified to be where she is. Last year he posted some of her stats, etc. I believe she outscored my NON-urm daughter, who received similar acceptances. He is the archetypal example of parents supporting & supplementing the education of their children.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Drosselmeier's son's stats own all of mine. Period. His children are clearly qualified to be admitted to any university. His children would clearly not get "lost in the stack," as he has previously claimed would happen to some Black applicants under race-blind admissions. Yet, all this while, he still advocates preferential treatment for his racial group based on historical grievances.</p>
<p>I cannot support anyone who believes that he is entitled to special treatment based on his race because of historical injustices. I can and will, however, support all those who believe that they are entitled to equal treatment.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>May I remind you that an eye for an eye only makes the entire world blind?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You are actually playing the victim, whining about how âpeople are calling me names, just because I am saying kind things to themâ, when in fact you are acting dishonorably.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Let me answer this by stating that I neither am a victim nor do I claim to be one. You also are not a victim, but you say that you are. See the difference?</p>
<p>But, I am complaining about how my words have actually been twisted. It confuses me, why believing in equal treatment makes me a "racist." Apparently, if I don't make judgments based on race, I am, in fact, "racist."</p>
<p>Post 652:</p>
<p>I think you need to examine how you yourself twist other people's words, beliefs, statements -- including when people attempt to clarify & respond directly to questions from you about those statements. You're making up definitions & then associating posters with those. </p>
<p>Your racial understanding is very limited, in my observation based on your statements. (Your experience of the reality of opportunities in some minority communities versus others, your knowledge of the real "cultural capital" differences that D has referred to, in some minority communities versus others.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Drosselmeier's son's stats own all of mine. Period. His children are clearly qualified to be admitted to any university. His children would clearly not get "lost in the stack," as he has previously claimed would happen to some Black applicants under race-blind admissions. Yet, all this while, he still advocates preferential treatment for his racial group based on historical grievances.
[/quote]
You are really missing my point, son. This isnât about my kids, and never has been. I have never looked to AA as the solution for us. I have never looked at it as a solution, in itself, for anything. I donât like AA, wish it had never started. But the point I am trying to make is that I think it can be useful as part of a comprehensive effort to ease the pain of the past.</p>
<p>I think, am not yet sure, but I think I have seen some definite needs in the lives of black children that when they are filled, frees them to do great things even if they are poor. It will take time, a lot of time, to develop ways to make this happen in black communities everywhere. It will take a lot of time just to make the case. In the meantime, you have kids who, despite living in awful circumstances, are hanging in there. They do NOT have parents like me, and yet they are still pulling close to my kids. Had they a little more support growing up, those kids would have done amazingly. They could easily get lost in the pack, were we to cut out the fact of the obstacles they endure due to race. I am saying they should never get lost. We need them, desperately. AA could be the tool we use to sift through the students so that we can easily find these potential students. It is a temporary measure that eases the pain of the community so that those of us out here who donât yet have a clue about how to deal with the past, can get time enough to get a clue.</p>
<p>I still do not know if AA gives us a net positive effect. It could be that overall it harms black motivation. I am not convinced of this, but it is certainly possible. If I could know that the effect is ultimately negative, I would not support it. But seeing that the enemies of AA are almost always white (occasionally with token black frontmen), almost always conservatives, often racist, often with no demonstrated interest in lifting up the whole country, including blacks, I am terribly skeptical of their views.</p>
<p>
[quote]
May I remind you that an eye for an eye only makes the entire world blind?
[/quote]
The world is already blind. It has always been blind, especially to what is right. Just look at us, how we walk around Washington, D.C. oohing and ahhing at Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, men who spoke so well, so passionately, and so earnestly, about manâs natural state of freedom, men who were able to see far more than most, and yet who intentionally turned a blind eye to the lives of men they held in bondage right in their own country, right on their own land, literally in their own houses. The entire world is deliberately blind. An eye for an eye may make the world blind, but it is the law of all nature. We all of us demand it for ourselves. What you are doing here is demanding that blacks refuse to demand it for themselves. You do not have the right to fulfill this demand. Blacks and only blacks have that right. What I am talking about here is creating a society wherein blacks willingly give up the right for their pound of flesh.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let me answer this by stating that I neither am a victim nor do I claim to be one. You also are not a victim, but you say that you are. See the difference?
[/quote]
You do not have the right to define me. You are actually telling me I am lying, that I claim what is not true. It is nonsense, unalloyed nonsense.</p>
<p>You know, I do not know what ancient homeland I hail from, at least not when it comes to the African part of me. I do not know anything about my ancestors, what they did, why they did it, who they fought, how they got on in life. I can receive no benefit of their ancient wisdom, their stories, poetry, music, and know that I came from it all. That is very important to me, but I can never have it. Others take this for granted. But I long for it, and always will. I look around and see millions and millions and millions of people like me who also long for it, and who also know deep in their hearts they will never find it. We are stuck here in America where when whites get tired of us they say âGo back to Africa!â, as if we left Africa in the first place. It all proves that we do not yet belong here, that our own countrymen do not think we belong here. This happened to us not because we chose it, not because our parents chose it. It happened only because of what this country did to us by its own law. If that ainât being a victim, I donât know what is.</p>
<p>But I donât wallow in âvictimhoodâ so that I am debilitated by it, allowing it to be an excuse for my failures. Shoot, I think most of my failures happened because of my own dumb actions. Indeed, I canât think of a single thing at which I have failed that I can blame on someone else.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But, I am complaining about how my words have actually been twisted. It confuses me, why believing in equal treatment makes me a "racist."
[/quote]
Because you do not believe in equal treatment. You are unwilling to crawl into my black skin and feel the world as I feel it. I certainly am willing to crawl into your skin. I am willing to crawl into white skin, even. In fact, I am white all the time â have no choice about it. White Jesus is everywhere, and blacks worship him. But I know few whites who bow down to black Jesus. Kids see this, and it tells them something about themselves. The point is, we blacks are always seeing America as others see it. America is hardly willing to see reality from our point-of-view.</p>
<p>Look. I know you are a kid, with little experience in the world, and that, being a kid, you donât have much of a clue about handling life on this level. That is just the fact of it, and I do not say this to insult you. It helps me deal with whatever youâve said here. As a result, I do not think you are a racist. I just think you havenât much knowledge of how black people process this place we are trapped in. So, I am just letting your comments roll off, just as I always do when non-blacks flap their gums on these issues. But, son, had you any love of mankind at all, any desire to really grow beyond yourself, you would take a very close look at what you say to me when you throw around stuff.</p>
<p>As an example, you claim that I want âsomething for nothingâ. Were I unable to see the world from your view, I would process this as fighting words and begin to hate you, literally hate you. Why is this? Because of what it really means from my vantage point when you say that I want something for nothing. The âsomethingâ you claim I want is whatever program or attention I advocate for the assistance of blacks in view of their condition. Thatâs fine. The problem enters with that word ânothingâ. I want the âsomethingâ because of how awful it feels to come out of slavery and still be suffering its legacy, the ignorance, the isolation, the anger, and sadness that has come to me because of American law. I want the âsomethingâ because of all this, and it is all this, the very thing that kills me, that you are calling ânothingâ.</p>
<p>That is really why people are confusing you as a racist.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>If you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then why do you twist mine?</p>
<p>Your questions in post 642 clearly twisted my words, but I still answered them. Directly. With one post. I used "yes" and "no" to answer your questions. I did not write a long paragraph masquerading as an answer, which is something you did a few months back.</p>
<p>My racial understanding is limited. I concede that. Maybe I'm too young and too idealistic to avoid the harsh reality that some people just aren't interested in making race-blind judgments. Maybe when I get to your age, I'll quit and succumb to the belief that only through government intervention can Blacks be helped.</p>
<p>On second thought, nah. Americans voted for equal treatment in California, Texas, Florida, Washington, and Michigan. I believe that this trend is not an anomaly, and that Americans will continue to vote for equal treatment in other states as initiatives arise.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>
[quote]
But seeing that the enemies of AA are almost always white (occasionally with token black frontmen), almost always conservatives, often racist, often with no demonstrated interest in lifting up the whole country, including blacks, I am terribly skeptical of their views.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It doesn't surprise me that a lot of supporters of affirmative action are closet socialists. A liberal, who by definition believes in freedom, should never support such an interventionist policy as affirmative action.</p>
<p>You have consistently stated that affirmative action should be used in conjuction with other efforts to target educational inequality. My problem is that affirmative action hinders these other efforts. It doesn't help; it hurts.</p>
<p>When the question, "Do you support affirmative action?" was asked, 94% of all polled Blacks said yes. In fact, a clear majority of all polled expressed support. When affirmative action was defined, we had a different number. 53% of Blacks - still a majority - stated that they supported racial preferences. 47% stated that they supported aggressive nondiscrimination. There are more Black enemies of affirmative action in our nation than a few "token black frontmen."</p>
<p>Drosselmeier,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Because you do not believe in equal treatment. You are unwilling to crawl into my black skin and feel the world as I feel it. I certainly am willing to crawl into your skin. I am willing to crawl into white skin, even. In fact, I am white all the time â have no choice about it. White Jesus is everywhere, and blacks worship him. But I know few whites who bow down to black Jesus. Kids see this, and it tells them something about themselves. The point is, we blacks are always seeing America as others see it. America is hardly willing to see reality from our point-of-view.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your reference to "White Jesus" and "Black Jesus" reminded me of The Boondocks. I'm sorry to say, I had to chuckle a bit.</p>
<p>Jesus may have been dark-skinned, but he surely was not Afro-Asiatic. I hope you were using these terms as metaphors.</p>
<p>But, like I've said before, if you don't like it when I "twist" your words, then please don't twist mine. I believe in equal treatment. I do not, however, believe in preferential treatment based on race. That would truly make me a racist.</p>
<p>I used "something for nothing" to criticize your belief that you deserve special treatment based on your race. For the n plus one-th time, you deserve equal treatment. For the n plus one-th time, you are not entitled to preferential treatment. It's as simple (or simplistic, if you prefer) as that.</p>
<p>It's pointless to continue discussing this. We have a fundamental disagreement.</p>
<p>I feel you're entitled to equal treatment.</p>
<p>You feel you're deserving of special treatment.</p>
<p>And, this causes problems, unfortunately.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On second thought, nah. Americans voted for equal treatment in California, Texas, Florida, Washington, and Michigan. I believe that this trend is not an anomaly, and that Americans will continue to vote for equal treatment in other states as initiatives arise.
[/quote]
Americans want something for nothing, and since they think have the might to force it, they are going ahead and trying to force it. But you can never get something for nothing. The country is going to pay every single bit of what it owes, and the longer it continues to ignore its debt to itself, the worse it is going to be for us all when the chickens come home to roost.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It doesn't surprise me that a lot of supporters of affirmative action are closet socialists. A liberal, who by definition believes in freedom, should never support such an interventionist policy as affirmative action.
[/quote]
And he should never support such an interventionist policy as slavery either. But he does just this when he advocates not repairing the damage of a nationâs theft of the lives of millions of its citizens.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You have consistently stated that affirmative action should be used in conjuction with other efforts to target educational inequality. My problem is that affirmative action hinders these other efforts. It doesn't help; it hurts.
[/quote]
You have no evidence of this, but just state this repeatedly. Indeed, you have never seen AA even work as I have advocated because currently it is not being used in conjunction with other efforts. We all look at it as a silver bullet, an either/or solution to a problem that took half a millennium to create.</p>
<p>
[quote]
When the question, "Do you support affirmative action?" was asked, 94% of all polled Blacks said yes. In fact, a clear majority of all polled expressed support. When affirmative action was defined, we had a different number. 53% of Blacks - still a majority - stated that they supported racial preferences. 47% stated that they supported aggressive nondiscrimination. There are more Black enemies of affirmative action in our nation than a few "token black frontmen."
[/quote]
Even those alleged black enemies of affirmative action are not out lobbying against it as are the few token frontmen.</p>