<p>b4nnd20 I’m part-Asian and proud.</p>
<p>k&s, your continued references to overrepresentation to Jews at elite institutions suggests that you think they are somehow being favored over Asian applicants. There’s also an undercurrent that their enrollment should be curtailed in order for Asians to take their (rightful) place. I hope I’m wrong on this. </p>
<p>I checked the enrollment statistics for both Asians and Jews at Yale and discovered that the estimated Jewish population–according to Hillel data which tends to overstate numbers-- is perhaps about 25%, while the Asian population–using the common data set and understanding that there are many additional Asian students who fall within the undisclosed race/ethnicity category is somewhere between 15-20%. This, of course, doesn’t account for those who fall within both categories. There’s not the gross disparity in representation you allege. I know, I know, you’re going to say that there are fewer Jews in the world than there are Asians so somehow Jewish population should reflect that number and certainly shouldn’t outpace Asian enrollment. Except of course, you don’t have the data to compare numbers of applicants in each pool, numbers of acceptances in each pool and the ratio between the two, or the “qualifications” of all students. </p>
<p>You do realize that there’s no sure way for a school to identify Jewish applicants, right? Last names are deceptive given the high rate of intermarriage and there’s no box to check that identifies a particular religious affiliation. Nor does any school track Jewish students’ acceptance or enrollment. So you really don’t know with any precision how many Jewish kids are accepted or attend. </p>
<p>For another thing, do you have any idea whether these kids were hooked (athletes, legacies with powerful connections, development candidates, etc.)? Do you know what their resumes looked like? Is there some chance that as a whole they didn’t resemble each other nearly as much as Asian candidates did? In that case, perhaps they tended to fill different niches rather than compete for the same small niche.</p>
<p>And how do you know whether Jewish attendance brings variety or diversity to a school? Do you know whether the kids who identify as Jewish come from the U.S. or outside, whether they speak different languages or have a parent who comes from a diverse background? You don’t seem to understand the great variations that permeate the U.S. Jewish community. </p>
<p>Finally, your post points to exactly what I find disquieting about this issue. Jewish and Asian families, as a gross generalization, value education similarly. Jews may constitute a very small segment of the population but because of the emphasis on learning and achieving pursue higher education at a highly disproportionate rate. I’m not sure that’s true of the Asian American communities; there’s a lot more variation because it’s a much bigger population. In any event, Jews, like Asians, face extreme competition in elite school admissions. Ask a Jewish kid from Long Island (not my kids, not me, this is not a case of sour grapes) how well he thinks he’ll fare or has fared in elite college admissions. These kids face the same sorts of obstacles as the stereotypical Asian student, and have for decades. It’s not that they are Jewish per se. Their stories, their achievements, their demographics tend to overlap and too many applications look the same. Nor are they alone. Look further and you’ll hear more and more disappointment from high achieving students who have worked hard, done brilliantly and still aren’t getting into Harvard and Yale. Ask any girl how she feels about the fact that she’s at a decided disadvantage. Instead of complaining that Asians are the only group held to a higher standard and that it’s unfair, understand that the process isn’t fair. You aren’t going to make the process fair by pitting yourself against others or by disparaging underrepresented groups who appear to benefit from the process. Move on and play the game or find another route (gasp! a different top tier school) to your ultimate goals.</p>
<p>Shoshi, I don’t understand why you keep insisting that we are complaining that ONLY asians are held to a higher standard in the college admissions process. As far as I am aware, no one has stated that in this thread. In fact, anyone that even posts on this site is probably aware of the various inequities in the college admissions.</p>
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<p>So, you admit that Asians are held to a higher standard and rationalize this instead of denouncing it? What strong moral standards you have.</p>
<p>Do I admit that Asians are held to a higher standard? Not necessarily and no more than any other overrepresented group. I’m not even sure what you mean by “higher” standard because it’s entirely likely that an elite school will select a “lower” achieving Asian applicant over a “higher” achieving one. It’s all a question of what niche a person fills.</p>
<p>And for the person who asked why I keep harping on how Asians don’t see the inequities applied to other groups, this post is a great example of what I’m talking about. My quote referred to the inequities that exist for groups besides Asians in a nutty college admissions process and the one thing fabrizio took from it was to ask, “So you admit that ASIANS are held to a higher standard?” Geez. NO. They are overrepresented in elite college applications–as are females, Jews, northeasterners, Californians, kids from highly ranked suburban schools and prep schools–and so are going to find that the available slots are fewer. </p>
<p>The real point I want to make is to look beyond the two or three schools that you all seem to think are the be all and end all. It’s not like I’m telling you to settle for Podunk U.! The name, prestige, and connections are all there at top schools lacking the name Harvard, Yale, or M.I.T. There are some highly ranked schools that actually favor Asian applicants if you can wrap your heads around the idea of abandoning the Ivy League myth.</p>
<p>I guess I’ve made my point and harped on it too. So take from it what you will, dismiss it if you want, and good luck to all.</p>
<p>I only read the first page of this (I’m sure you’ll understand…!), but hey…</p>
<p>I’m Asian. I don’t like math or science. I’m an English major. I wasn’t even born in America, I came here seven years ago. So take that!!! :D</p>
<p>PS: And I totally agree with the original article. There aren’t that many of my kind, being Asian and so radical.</p>
<p>shoshi,</p>
<p>By higher standard, I am referring to “negative action,” the indefensible practice of treating Asian applicants worse than equally qualified white applicants. Please see the research of Jerry Kang, Frank Wu, and William Kidder for more detail.</p>
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<p>The available slots are fewer because they are “overrepresented”? In other words, if X < Y, and there are Y available slots, only X of those Y slots are available to Asians because of their “overrepresentation”?</p>
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<p>Which schools are these? You know, it’s hard to find a top ranked research university or liberal arts college that doesn’t have a student body that is at least 5% Asian, right?</p>
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<p>Actually, what Asian-Am students major in at college is not that different from the rest of the student body.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, “self-image” is usually affected by media images and stereotypes.</p>
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<p>The problem is that Asian stereotypes are so limiting (for instance, while blacks and Jews are also stereotyped, they have been much more diversely depicted in the media).</p>
<p>And I would hardly make conclusions based on your limited experiences (that’s what people on white supremacists sites like Stormfront do when they justify stereotypes of blacks, Jews, Hispanics and Asians).</p>
<p>As for the “looking-down on you” for not acting “Asian” - plenty of “whitewashed” Asians look down on the FOBs (or Asians who are more rooted to their heritage).</p>
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<p>Do you feel bad for all the Jews who want to become lawyers, doctors, scientists, financial analyst/broker, professional violinist or Hollywood agent?</p>
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<p>Actually, there are dynamic indie Asian music and film scenes - but America isn’t really ready for mainstream Asian entertainers (that’s why, for instance, so many Korean-Am singers/dancers and actors end up going to Korea for a career in the entertainment industry).</p>
<p>Otoh, there are many Asian-Am designers, architects, artists, writers (both fiction and non-fiction) and chefs who do their work “behind the scenes.” </p>
<p>The one exception is the news anchor chair where Asian female anchors are WAY overrepresented (and Asian male anchors hardly exist).</p>
<p>Wow…controversy.
I’m Asian and I definitely agree that many Asians fit the “stereotype” but
that doesn’t mean colleges should use this stereotype as a basis for acceptance.
And anyways, I’m not good at science; my best subject is language; I HAVE friends;
and I’m known to have a crazy and loud personality.
There’s a stereotype breaker :)</p>
<p>^ And let’s not forget - the same stereotypes that apply to Asians also apply to Jews (and black immigrant students for that matter and they are actively sought out by the schools).</p>
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<p>Uhh, females are admitted at a greater rate than males at top universities nowadays and Jewish students have a far higher admit rate at the Ivies than Asian-Am students so I wouldn’t exactly say that Jewish kids are “similarly situated.”</p>
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<p>Different sources give diff. nos. - I’ve seen 30% Jewish students for Yale and Penn and 20-25% for Harvard - but for the sake of argument, let’s say that the student body at Yale and Penn is 25% Jewish.</p>
<p>In 2007, the Asian enrollment at Yale was 14% (not clear if this included int’l students) - but let’s just say the % of Asians at Yale and Penn is 18%.</p>
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<p>Yeah - there are “a lot” of applicants who are both Jewish and Asian - lol.</p>
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<p>I’m only taking into consideration American applicants.</p>
<p>When you factor in the fact that Jews only make up 1.5% of the college age pop. and Asians make up more than 5% - the disparity is quite evident (Asians are overrepresented by about 3 to 4x; Jews are overrepresented by a factor of 16).</p>
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<p>Uhh, females are admitted at a greater rate than males at top universities nowadays and Jewish students have a far higher admit rate at the Ivies than Asian-Am students so I wouldn’t exactly say that Jewish kids are “similarly situated.”</p>
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<p>Different sources give diff. nos. - I’ve seen 30% Jewish students for Yale and Penn and 20-25% for Harvard - but for the sake of argument, let’s say that the student body at Yale and Penn is 25% Jewish.</p>
<p>In 2007, the Asian enrollment at Yale was 14% (not clear if this included int’l students) - but let’s just say the % of Asians at Yale and Penn is 18%.</p>
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<p>Yeah - there are “a lot” of applicants who are both Jewish and Asian - lol.</p>
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<p>I’m only taking into consideration American applicants.</p>
<p>When you factor in the fact that Jews only make up 1.5% of the college age pop. and Asians make up more than 5% - the disparity is quite evident (Asians are overrepresented by about 3x; Jews are overrepresented by a factor of 16).</p>
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<p>Gee, wouldn’t there then be more WASP or white Catholic students at the Ivies?</p>
<p>And studies have shown that the resumes of Asian-Am students is no diff. from that of other students (btw, in 2007-8, Harvard had about 30 Asians athletes on their sports teams, including their best hockey players on both the men’s and women’s team and the starting RB in the FB team and the top scorer off the bench on the BB team as a true frosh).</p>
<p>Don’t you find it curious that Princeton, which has the most “holistic” admissions policy out of the Ivies, has the least disparity in the no. of Asian and Jewish students (Princeton actually has more Asian than Jewish students)?</p>
<p>As an Indian American who was just denied admission to top tier universities while his Hispanic and black compatriots got in with crappy SAT scores and mediocre grades, I find this bias appalling. But, my Asian brethren, I guess we are just smarter and eventually will take over the US [=.</p>
<p>K&S, of course I feel bad for them. For those Asians looking down on me, it wasn’t because I’m a FOB, lol. I was born here and been here all my life. I think they just looked down on me because I wasn’t quiet; I’m loud and quite confrontational and I’m sometimes brutally honest about things. I assume these were just qualities they felt didn’t fit the Asian image. Yes, I would have to agree that it’s usually the “whitewashed” Asians who are privilleged and middle-class or above who are condescending and arrogant towards Asians who are underrepresented or poor. The only thing I can do is just be who I am and follow my aspirations. :)</p>
<p>I know! And the dumb thing is that we’re minorities too, but only the other minorities get advantages.
Boooo reverse discrimination >[
Is it our fault we’re hard working?</p>
<p>ballin-
I feel you, I really do.
Muahaha ><</p>
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[QUOTE=mrbh12]
I know! And the dumb thing is that we’re minorities too, but only the other minorities get advantages.
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<p>The reason is that Asians are generally an OVERREPRESENTED minority at colleges.</p>
<p>E.g. The population of Asians in all of America is x%. If the population of Asians at an American college is >x% on average, then they are overrepresented. To compensate for overrepresentation, stricter standards are set.</p>
<p>It is not so much the stereotype, although I can say that I honestly don’t know where some of you come up with these things because most of them are false. In general, Asians are not “texture-less math grinders”, “socially awkward / quiet” or “hard workers”. In my view, the differences between people within a race are generally more noticeable and significant than the differences between races themselves (when discounting physical traits, of course).</p>
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<p>Is this not discriminatory?</p>
<p>i don’t understand why you are ashamed to be an asian. not all asians are quiet and anti-social. it differs from person to person. the stereotype isn’t an urban legend, but don’t let that bother you. you are someone completely different than anybody else in the world. schools might have double standards against certain races, so what? if you are good enough, beat the standard and get into the game to compete!
once you are in. it’s fair game. doesn’t matter what race you are.</p>
<p>maybe schools keep the asian population low so that the other non-asians still have higher percentage of population in school. that’s probably why the double-standard comes into play.
think what if there’s no double standard, would the population distribution among races be the same? i don’t think so.</p>
<p>i’m not racist. just spitting out the fact. thought i agree that grades and academic achievements isn’t the only key to success in life/future.</p>
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Is this not discriminatory?
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<p>Yes, it is discriminatory. So?</p>
<p>Wait, are you actually defending a policy that you admit is discriminatory? Please tell me that I’ve misunderstood you.</p>