<p>Debrockman, You are sorely mistaken if you think the so called “public ivy’s”(agree-funny term) will be beating down your son’s door and offering him all kinds of merit aid. My son, with 1480 (higher than what your son has I believe) graduated from UVa. He got NO merit aid. Your son is not a shoe in for any of these better schools, regardless of his SAT’s, if you (and he if he shares your views) do not change your attitide ASAP. The sense of entitlement-he’s so smart, blah,blah,blah, is unbelievable. Schools look at many factors to determine who to admit, not just the SAT. And yes, son could have looked at many expensive privates but we were instate for UVa and it made sense financially as we were in that middle ground . No regrets. We were full pay and he took out some unsubsidzed loans to help. There are great public school options out here if you don’t want to spend $50,000 a year on a school.</p>
<p>I just heard that we entered a poor inner city kid from Georgia, who has never seen ice on the Olympic speedskating team. It was only fair. We’ll give him a fast time anyway through our handicapping system.</p>
<p>Debrockman, you stated that if Harvard really wanted the best kids, they would all be 4.0/2400 and that:</p>
<p>“Harvard has some of the LEAST transparent admissions policies I have ever seen. They hide behind loose language referring to “the whole student”. It’s a bunch of crap. I’m a 30 year HR exec. We can’t get away with that kind of bologna.”</p>
<p>As I also spent over 30 years hiring people, I am interested in what criteria you used which were more transparent and clear. I know that I found that, for example, an applicant with great communication skills and a 3.8 was a better candidate than someone with poor commmunication schools and a 3.9 from the same school.
And I would hire the 3.7 applicant who worked through college over the 3.8 who did not; the 3.6 first generation college student over the 3.7 rich kid; and the 3.6 with lots of relevant experience over the 3.8 with none; etc.</p>
<p>Harvard could fill its class with 4.0/2400 kids but it chooses not to, because it feels that, in addition to many 4.0/2400 kids, the best student body would have some, for example, who are only 650 in verbal, but won the Intel science competition; or only 650 math but had a short story published in the New Yorker; or kids who won medals in Iraq; spent years helping the elderly; overcame blindness; were brought up by refugees but became valedictorians, etc–and yes, many who are athletes or children of donors.</p>
<p>We all may define “best” applicants differently–just as we will never know how to compare 4.0s from different high schools or the value of a great football player vs. a great viola player.</p>
<p>And yes, lots of Ivy graduates in public life have proven to be fools–I will leave it to you to decide whether you include both Bushes with Obama, and whether you include the Roosevelts and JFK. Of course, many of the failed subprime mortgage companies which had a lot to do with the financial mess wee run by nonIvy Leaguers and some of the worst Wall Street offenders were not, either–when you find a college whose graduates have all been invariably honest and successful, please let us know.</p>
<p>oldfort…I find your numbers on the high side…I doubt most pay $3,500/mth on their mortgage and $1200/mth on food? Wow…that is one hungry family. Just cutting $1k from mortgage and you have $12k/yr, half of the $25k savings a year. You must admit, with a $2-$2,500 mortgage, saving $25k.yr is definitely doable.</p>
<p>$25k/yr at a modest return would take about 12-14 years of saving to send 2 kids to college.</p>
<p>sevmom…and the “top” investment banking firms ONLY recruit at the Ivies. So he can write that off his list of potential careers. Of course, they have no integrity, either, so I’m not sure who would actually choose to work there unless their only goal in life was to make money. And actually, MIT, Caltech and other top schools that really do go after the demonstrated best already ARE beating down his door. There are still schools that have ONLY top students. He doesn’t want to to go there. He wants to retain some semblance of sanity. He was a a top 10 scorer on the state math competition, had the highest score in the state on the National Spanish language exam…good athlete, lots of mission work…and he’s grade accelerated. But none of that is the point. The point is, if the Ivies want to keep their reputation, their only admissions criteria should be excellence. And it is not. </p>
<p>Congrats on your son’s graduation from UVa. Excellent school. It may be on my son’s list…probably one of the more competitive Public Ivies for an out of stater. I am absolutely not sure he would get in. Just as he likely would not get into U of M, which he also cannot afford. More likely William and Mary or Miami…where he will most likely get in and where they have automatic merit offerings that he DOES qualify for…if not, Centre/Denison/IU/Purdue…all strong choices he will be happy with. I have no entitlement mentality. It’s the entitlement mentality I have a PROBLEM with. My problem is that these schools pretend to be “the best”…the “most selective”, yet they don’t really even publish their statistics, and their statistics, as “published” really aren’t any better than other great schools, and are masked by their international students’ outstanding performance. They grant a family with incomes less than 200,000 an arbitrary 10% of income tuition, or less, and they overcharge everyone else to make up for it. It’s a ridiculous system and lots of high income people are on to them and they are now struggling to explain themselves…note the number of books written recently about the scam that is the Ivy League.</p>
<p> IT (“public ivy”) IS a made up term, debrockman. Made up by Richard Moll. And it has nothing to do with the size of the school
You might want to read the link before you post it next time. Just sayin’</p>
<p>And kajon- yes the GA HOPE scholarship is great. It requires a B (3.0 not 3.2) to pay for the GA instate tuition (not totally “free”- there are some costs). But the student has to MAINTAIN the 3.0 GPA to keep the HOPE scholarship , and that has been tough for some students do do.</p>
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<p>I see this is your first to go to college, so don’t mistake all the dozens of lbs. of mailings, brochures, e-mails etc. for beating down his door. ALL students who check a box on the PSAT and do well get the same thing. Nothing more than mass marketing, pure and simple.</p>
<p>If my D goes to a “Little Ivy” does that mean she’s only a “little idiot?”</p>
<p>Yabeyabe…I actually agree with everything you said, although I venture to say that if you were to recruit all the most talented kids and make their education affordable, you would be able to fill 8 Ivy league schools with all 4.0/2400 students who were outstanding at every level. And then you could look at those kids and say they really ARE the best and the brightest. Now we just treat them like they are…but they’re not. The top grad at IU/the top grad at UVa, the top grad at Rose Hulman or UNC or any other top quality public or private school has every bit of the capacity of the average Ivy Leaguer…but they do not have the same ability to get hired for the best job or get admitted to the best school. It is our own version of a feudal system.</p>
<p>And I absolutely put the Bushes right up there with the Obamas as an example.</p>
<p>Debrockman-The schools like Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech , did come onto him because of his 780 math SAT(oh, horrors, not an 800!) and 800 on SAT ll in math, 5’s in AP CalculusBC,APPhysics, yada yada yada. He, and ,we, just did not let it go to his head. He picked a school that was a good fit and worked with our budget. And by the way , UVa does very well with recruiting.</p>
<p>Made up in 1985 and stuck. Just like “post-it” is a made up term that stuck, and how Xerox became a verb from a company name…because it is a term that fits. That is how language develops. Maybe you should take a class on the evolution of language in linguistics.</p>
<p>geeps20 - just do some search on the internet for housing costs around NYC, Boston, and San Fran area. You’ll see 3500/mon is on a low side. A 500-750 home around NYC could have property tax of 20-25,000/yr (you’ll see it’s a basic 3 bedroom older home). Yes, if you were living around Scranton, PA you could buy a mansion for under 200k, but it would be very hard for you to find a job that pays 200K. $1200/mon for food for a family of four, that’s eating healthy with no junk food.</p>
<p>UVa is an awesome school with such an amazing history. Our son is also looking for a good fit. It is unfortunate that none of the Ivies will be able to be on his list. Too bad we were too successful.</p>
<p>But not quite successful ENOUGH. UVa will also not be able to be on the list. He isn’t quite strong enough of a candidate to make merit money a sure thing there. My argument is not about my son. It is about the Ivy League mirage. I think it needs to change. These kids are given all kinds of red carpet treatment that too large of a percentage of them really haven’t earned except through some accident of birth.</p>
<p>Hmmmm, come to think of it, Amherst was undefeated in football this year. I am now going to call it a Little Private Big 10. In 25 years it should be part of our language. Yup…</p>
<p>By that convoluted logic, debrockman (post #270) the urban dictionary should replace Webster’s :rolleyes: . The ivy league, as hopefully you know, is a football league. The rest are all “made up terms” no matter what kind of spin you put on them. And if you think the term “public ivy” <em>stuck</em>, try using it around people who arent dealing with (or haven’t dealt with) college admissions, and see if they are as familiar with the “public ivy” concept as they are with Scotch tape or a Q Tip. One thing that is true-- its all marketing. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t MEAN squat. </p>
<p>and GA2012mom-- to make :rolleyes: just type the word rolleyes and put colons on either side of it</p>
<p>Neither of the last two posts made any sense.</p>
<p>Debrockman,Accident of birth works both ways. Through an accident of birth, your kid was born into a fairly affluent ,probably educated family that gave him a leg up with school, doing well on SAT’s ,etc.</p>
<p>:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Thanks jym. :)</p>
<p>In our state, we have a state supported high school that every one of the best math and science students are invited to attend. You don’t pay anything for it. It is a boarding school. Many strong students, obviously, choose not to attend. That is a personal choice. But if you are invited to attend that school, you ARE one of our state’s best and brightest and nobody really can challenge that. If the Ivies want the reputation as they portray themselves, their process for admission should have a similar level of objectivity. At this time, there is no school at the college level that really brings this same universal expectation of excellence and equality of admission that I can think of. And I think it’s a shame.</p>
<p>My pleasure, Ga2012mom. </p>
<p>Hey de, if you have a question about a post that you don’t understand, you can certainly ask for clarification. The way I read your post about “public ivy” - you think its a real concept. Think again.</p>