<p>debrock-I’m an AA case with a BETTER PSAT score than your nonAA child</p>
<p>but I’ll only get in cuz I’m a URM, right?</p>
<p>rocket6louise- Is “dating” the right word? But some people really like PAIN more than others. Right, bb?</p>
<p>debrockman</p>
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<p>Indeed and Bravo !!!</p>
<p>We are full pay (granted for 2 public schools but it’s all relative) and sure wish we didn’t have to pay all of it(and admit sometimes do start to feel sorry for myself on that when I think of all the other things like vacations I’d like to be doing with that money) but it is what it is. Kids do have small loans because we feel they need to contribute some to their education. We are the ones that decided to have kids and feel good that we can help them with college costs. Lower income kids often do not have the funds.Why begrudge them support?</p>
<p>sevmom-I agree wholeheartedly</p>
<p>momzie</p>
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<p>Nope - you are not reading it wrong - you are being penalized for doing the right thing while others get rewarded for not working as hard</p>
<p>Look, berryberry61, I don’t care what kind of kinks you have. I’m not here to judge. But my kid doesn’t get a dime of need-based aid and likely won’t get any for med school either. But I’m not some Bubba BBQ fella turning down millions because I couldn’t hack the corporate lifestyle and then whining about the children of house-maids getting aid. Heck, if I did do that , I couldn’t shave without wanting to off myself. 
But again, value systems must be different. Ice-floes and all.</p>
<p>Charity begins at home, and it appears for some, it stops right there, too. ;)</p>
<p>I don’t begrudge them either. I just challenge them to the idea that they are more elite or more intelligent. Some of them are. Many are not. And those of us who pay full freight for our kids without “other resources” who have kids who will get accepted places where they won’t be able to go because it won’t fit the personally saved money… over kids who can go because they only have to pay only 10% of salary…we’re gonna start calling you on it.</p>
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<p>Both my parents work full time, well did…berryberry…my dad has cancer and cannot work. Do you really think they are not working as hard as anyone else? My mom routinely works 50 hour weeks and my dad worked two jobs until he got sick…</p>
<p>Also, my mother put herself through school at age 26(I was 5) to get a better job…she works HARDER than most people I know</p>
<p>Sometimes I think people like you forget that we are PEOPLE, not just incomes. We work really hard but just can’t get ahead</p>
<p>rocket-- It’s a stupid argument. Like I always tell my daughter, “just point to the scoreboard” and don’t get in a fight.</p>
<p>The problem with arguing against people born into less fortunate economic circumstances getting a break in terms of getting into schools is that the “facts” prove that access to resources actually increases ability to perform. Many “full pay” kids have benefitted from tutors, pre-school education, test prep, not to mention biased testing pracitices which are well established facts.</p>
<p>Enlightened self-interest says we are ALL collectively better off the more educated we ALL are as a society. Class warfare, one way or the other, is not in our best interests. Rocket may well be the one who is going to come up with the cure for cancer, or the protein interface to erradicate the flu, which my well save one of your lives.</p>
<p>Oh: fwiw: we’re full pay. Just since that seems to be a point, here.</p>
<p>It makes no sense to keep anyone from an excellent education.</p>
<p>MOWC</p>
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<p>Not sure what you are referring to but if you enjoy the pain of paying for full tuitions to forcefully subsidize others, have at at. I believe its unethical for colleges to reuire those who earn more to overpay</p>
<p>Under the debrock and kinkberry theory, no one should go into the teaching profession to prepare our little darlings for the math team at the blue ribbon school, because it is a “slacker”, low-paying profession and then they will have to sponge off of us docs and lawyers in order to send their kids to good colleges.</p>
<p>rocket…so you were likely a commended scholar. No slouch. You are not who I’m talking about. But the stats for Harvard’s middle 50% indicate that they are admitting some pretty iffy students and they love to make apologies for that and then still try to claim that they are “it”.</p>
<p>Zoosermom–hats off to you and your family. What you are seeing in your Big Law recruiting role is what I saw at Yale Law–the historic role of the Ivies, MIT, Caltech, etc in providing a passport for nonaffluent kids from all over the country to fast track jobs in academia, business, law, etc. As you noted, the Ivy professional schools are very far from just accepting Ivy undergrads.</p>
<p>While I suspect many of us may be weary of debating with Berry and Debrockman, I suspect many of us woould agree with Debrockman that the country has been harmed by Wall Street and Washington over the past decade or more. For the country to move up and out of the rut, however, I think we have to avoid the simplistic view Debrockman takes that it is a small Ivy elite in the 2 places which caused all of this.</p>
<p>The subprime mortgage crisis, for example, owed much to the largest subprime lenders, companies such as Washington Mutual and Countrywide, which were not Wasll Street companies (although Wall Street certainly made the situation much worse).</p>
<p>The fault in Washington goes well beyond some Ivy elitists, to the Congressional leaders from all over the county, few with Ivy degrees, who caused or allowed our current troubles to begin and worsen and now try much more to score political points than to solve anything.</p>
<p>I just published a paper about the poor quality of teachers due to that reason exactly (listed by MomofWildChild). The average IQ of a teacher has dropped 2 standard deviations since the 1960s due to the fact that women now have the ability to get more high powered jobs. There is little reason for a very intelligent, capable person to want to become a teacher. Sure there are a few gifted teachers who teach for the joy of teaching, but they are few and far between. If a doctor made 30K annually, how do you think US medicine would be? If you want to read further you can go to youngidealist.org.</p>
<p>debrock-ok…as long as you do realize there are some bright URMs, I can rest the argument for a little bit</p>
<p>Both my parents work full time, well did…berryberry…my dad has cancer and cannot work. Do you really think they are not working as hard as anyone else? My mom routinely works 50 hour weeks and my dad worked two jobs until he got sick…</p>
<p>But that’s kind of the point – the form doesn’t distinguish between someone who’s not working because he has CANCER and someone who’s not working because she prefers to play golf and tennis and go out to lunch. SHouldn’t there be some mechanism for distinguish between those can’t work and those who choose not to?</p>
<p>And berryberry61, you know exactly what’s going on. Well, then again, I may be over-estimating you, although I did not think that was possible as low as I’d set the bar. ;)</p>
<p>Wait, debrockman, are you contending that SAT scores are the best indicator of future academic success? Or even the best test of intelligence? </p>
<p>I don’t buy it. </p>
<p>They are the best indicator of kids who take standardized tests well. That is all. (I have a daughter who is top 1% on this, just so you understand my perspective is objective.)</p>
<p>My oldest is going to be a teacher. I’m very proud of her. But she is going to State U for that education…where she holds a 4.0. National merit scholar. It makes no sense at ALL for a family that has to pay for an education to pay 200,000 to train for a job that will take her a decade of income to pay for. But see, those of you who aren’t PAYING your way don’t think of these practicalities. Why should you?</p>